Questions about Keto

[shree]

I started keto 6 days ago, eating three meals a day with foods like Greek yogurt, cacao nibs, nuts, eggs, cheese, and veggies. I'm also keeping up with electrolytes and drinking plenty of water. I read that doing some light exercise helps use up muscle glucose, but I'm feeling really weak.

If I've been eating sugar and carbs all my life, how long should I expect it to take for my body to adjust to ketosis? Is there a reliable way to track my progress?

Any tips?

Thanks!

Edited March 8 by shree

[Michael569]

hey, 

Can I ask what led you to keto? Is there a desirable outcome you're following? Weigh loss or something of that sort? 

On 3/8/2024 at 5:29 PM, shree said:

I read that doing some light exercise helps use up muscle glucose,

I have heard this theory before on low carb forums but it not the full story.

If your muscle glucose was permanently depleted, say on low carb diet, you would end up paralysed due to complete ATP depletion. Your heart, being  a cardiac muscle, would probably stop as well so your body would not want to do that. It is like wanting to deplete your lungs of oxygen.

Your muscles will source glucose through gluconeogenesis via other pathways even if you deprive yourself of carbohydrates, in that case it will be sourced from fat or amino acids. it will then be deposited into muscles during sleep and during periods of rest. You can't reverse this. 

Its basically evolution of species. Humans move by using the leverage between muscle and a bone, all of that being orchestrated through the electrical impulses of your nervous system. For muscles to work, they need glucose derived from food or stored glycogen. 

Your body will always replenish intramuscular glycogen no matter how deprived (unless extremely starved) even if it has to break down your muscle mass to use amino acids. The failure to supply muscles with glucose would probably be the last thing before heart failure 

On 3/8/2024 at 5:29 PM, shree said:

but I'm feeling really weak.

Keto can definitely be done but it needs to be approached carefully with a lot of planning otherwise the most common reason for people to quit is exreme fatigue to the point of depression. Seen it with a few of my past clients. 

You could start by tracking your caloric intake a see if you're getting everything you need. Gradually, if you do it well and your body can adapt effectively you will start slipping in an out of ketosis. How efefctively that happens is also derived from your genetics but also how long you have been doing this. 

Some people like to use blood ketone meters or urine ketone strips that you pee on - these can be fairly reliable to tell you how effectively your body is using ketones to meet metabolic demands. There are also breath tests but those can be a bit costly. 

But again before all of this, please be clear on the "why" before fully embarking on keto. Not everything shared in keto communities is alligned with the principles of human biology and a lot of it is a bit dangerous. 

A balanced diet with moderate carb intake is an option as well while you transition 

Edited March 9 by Michael569

[Jason Actualization]

@Michael569 I believe this is spot on.

OP, could you please delineate, as granularly as possibly, what exactly your goal(s) is/are?

I like to start with the end in mind, and then formulate apt markers to gauge progress from there.

Without knowing what your end game is, it's not immediately obvious that getting your body adjusted to ketosis is a necessary, or frankly, even vaguely appropriate intermediary.

[Osaid]

IME:

The withdrawals always peaked at day 4 and then subsided from there on.

IIRC it took a few months, like 1-3 for the body to really get it into gear and stabilize itself. Beyond that I would say you're decently fat-adapted and you can probably experiment with adding other things to your diet which are perhaps non-keto. Look at how your body feels and whether it is improving past a certain point or not.

If your energy levels don't stabilize to a decent level within a few weeks then I would be concerned about that and start adding a bit of carbs to see how that affects you. You can ease into it by slowly lowering the amount of carbs instead of going into it cold turkey. This would prevent sudden and unforeseen side effects too.

Always listen to your body above all else.

I recommend having coffee/tea or something with fat in the morning, it does very well for stabilizing appetite. Combine it with walnuts or some other nuts if you want, they are very satiating.

Make sure your meals are satiating and fatty enough, and don't snack too much or it creates insulin spikes which make you crave things, eat all your food "close together." If you want a really satiating snack, nuts are the way to go for sure. Eggs and dairy are satiating and very nutritious too. For meeting other nutrients you can go for vegetables/berries.

You can objectively measure your blood ketones through certain devices if you want.

Edited March 10 by Osaid

[shree]

@Michael569

After reading Mark Sisson's books and noticing a significant drop in my energy levels over the last few years, I decided to explore the keto diet.

I have a "skinny fat" body type, and when I relax my belly, it appears as though there's a big ball inside, leading me to suspect a fatty liver.

Additionally, my mood and focus have deteriorated. Considering my lifelong diet has been rich in unhealthy carbs, I thought it was time to give my body a break from them.

I've also read that intermittent fasting is most effective when one is fully adapted to keto, which further influenced my decision to start this dietary change.

I am also struggling much with building muscles. This was so easy when I was in my twenties. Now I am 33. There might be more reasons behind my choice, but these are the primary ones that come to mind.

 

 

[shree]

3 hours ago, Osaid said:

 

I'm on day 7 of keto, but my mood and energy are still low. Since it's my first time trying this, I don't expect big changes in the first two weeks.

[undeather]

Indeed, research as early as 2017 has shown that a ketogenic diet can impair thyroid function in some individuals. It's well-documented that the conversion of thyroxine (T4) to triiodothyronine (T3) diminishes during fasting. However, experiencing significant effects after just one week on a low-carb diet would be unusual.

Have you had your thyroid function checked recently? The issues you've mentioned—being skinny-fat, experiencing mood fluctuations, focus difficulties, and challenges in building muscle—could all be indicators of undiagnosed hypothyroidism.

Regarding the "big ball" you feel in your stomach, it's unlikely to be your liver; fatty liver disease typically doesn't present as a palpable condition. It's possible that this sensation could also be related to low thyroid function; bloating is a common symptom and might manifest as a "ball-like" structure in a specific area of the stomach.

My first advice would be to get your blood-levels evaluated by your GP. 
Also, an ultrasound of your internal organs would be indicated in such case (just be sure your "big ball" isn't something serious)

Second, I would really push back against ketogenic diets in general.
For every success story you read online, there is at least one other person who progressively gets worse on a low carb diet. You have started a ketogenic diet and now notice negative patterns in your body - so I would argue it's maybe not the right choice for you. What hinders you from going on a healthy, omnivorous diet? You need to really take all those healh-influecners (like Mark Sisson) and fad-diets with a grain of salt. They will promise health, wealth and beauty - but so does every other diet-scheme nowadays (carnivore, vegan, paleo...). And if you actually check what kind of evidence they are basing their claims on - it becomes laughable. Carbs are not your enemy - that's a conditioned believe. Most people who follow a healthy omnivorous diet consisting of enough protein, good carbs & healthy fats are doing more than fine from a health perspective.

 

[Water by the River]

After being low-carb [the highly refined ones at least] ffor a long time, I shifted that (while still being low carb) to something along the lines of http://plantpositive.com/ . The page is way more substantiated (studies mentioned) than most paleo-aficionado-books.

 

[shree]

49 minutes ago, undeather said:

Indeed, research as early as 2017 has shown that a ketogenic diet can impair thyroid function in some individuals. It's well-documented that the conversion of thyroxine (T4) to triiodothyronine (T3) diminishes during fasting. However, experiencing significant effects after just one week on a low-carb diet would be unusual.

Have you had your thyroid function checked recently? The issues you've mentioned—being skinny-fat, experiencing mood fluctuations, focus difficulties, and challenges in building muscle—could all be indicators of undiagnosed hypothyroidism.

Regarding the "big ball" you feel in your stomach, it's unlikely to be your liver; fatty liver disease typically doesn't present as a palpable condition. It's possible that this sensation could also be related to low thyroid function; bloating is a common symptom and might manifest as a "ball-like" structure in a specific area of the stomach.

My first advice would be to get your blood-levels evaluated by your GP. 
Also, an ultrasound of your internal organs would be indicated in such case (just be sure your "big ball" isn't something serious)

Second, I would really push back against ketogenic diets in general.
For every success story you read online, there is at least one other person who progressively gets worse on a low carb diet. You have started a ketogenic diet and now notice negative patterns in your body - so I would argue it's maybe not the right choice for you. What hinders you from going on a healthy, omnivorous diet? You need to really take all those healh-influecners (like Mark Sisson) and fad-diets with a grain of salt. They will promise health, wealth and beauty - but so does every other diet-scheme nowadays (carnivore, vegan, paleo...). And if you actually check what kind of evidence they are basing their claims on - it becomes laughable. Carbs are not your enemy - that's a conditioned believe. Most people who follow a healthy omnivorous diet consisting of enough protein, good carbs & healthy fats are doing more than fine from a health perspective.

 

Thanks, I will get my thyroid checked.

 

It is supposedly normal to feel the 'keto flu' until your body regains the long-lost ability to use fat as fuel. That's what Mark Sisson says. I won't know until I test it for myself.

[Michael569]

On 10/03/2024 at 7:59 AM, shree said:

@Michael569

After reading Mark Sisson's books and noticing a significant drop in my energy levels over the last few years, I decided to explore the keto diet.

I have a "skinny fat" body type, and when I relax my belly, it appears as though there's a big ball inside, leading me to suspect a fatty liver.

Additionally, my mood and focus have deteriorated. Considering my lifelong diet has been rich in unhealthy carbs, I thought it was time to give my body a break from them.

I've also read that intermittent fasting is most effective when one is fully adapted to keto, which further influenced my decision to start this dietary change.

I am also struggling much with building muscles. This was so easy when I was in my twenties. Now I am 33. There might be more reasons behind my choice, but these are the primary ones that come to mind.

 

Hey, thanks for sharing this. 

Loss of energy and fatigue can be caused by lots of different things and radical change of your diet might not always be the most viable solution, although sometimes it does help. 

Mood & focus deterioration are both closely tied to your energy levels. I have seen this over and over in guys I worked with. You fix one, the other follows pretty much instantly. 

What was your past diet like? 

Mark Sisson does bring forward lots of interesting ideas and I agree with some of his propositions around the negative effects of processed food and high-flour ingredients like processed carbs. But I don't think he fully appreciates the nuances between different types of carbohydrates. He sort of throws out the baby with the bathwater when recommending keto. Lot of his beliefs about carbohydrates and saturated fat are incredibly naive and show a complete ignorance of wider nutritional evidence. 

The difficulty with gain of muscle might be linked to low energy & mood and might be linked to diet missing certain components - enough calories, protein, carbohydrates etc. 

I am deliberately being vague because I don't want to break my ethics and give you generic advice based on little information but at the same time I am almost certain that keto is not the answer. A form of moderate carb, lower fat, moderate protein would probably be the way to go. However without more specifics I can't tell you where to begin. 

[Schizophonia]

Diets are useless. 

[Jason Actualization]

6 hours ago, Michael569 said:

Mark Sisson does bring forward lots of interesting ideas and I agree with some of his propositions around the negative effects of processed food and high-flour ingredients like processed carbs. But I don't think he fully appreciates the nuances between different types of carbohydrates. He sort of throws out the baby with the bathwater when recommending keto.

Bingo. Ketosis is a starvation response my friends, and, while useful, is not something to strive for just for the sake of being in that state of "fat-burning" which, when energy is equated, offers no unique benefits other than perhaps satiety, but I would maintain that becoming metabolically healthy and flexible with at minimum, a moderate carbohydrate intake (at least 150g bare daily for men) will reign supreme.

[MarkKol]

I’m sure nuts and seeds are healthy but I’m slowly questioning grains and the food pyramid, it could just be propaganda. 

[Schizophonia]

On 12/03/2024 at 11:07 PM, Jason Actualization said:

Bingo. Ketosis is a starvation response my friends, and, while useful, is not something to strive for just for the sake of being in that state of "fat-burning" which, when energy is equated, offers no unique benefits other than perhaps satiety, but I would maintain that becoming metabolically healthy and flexible with at minimum, a moderate carbohydrate intake (at least 150g bare daily for men) will reign supreme.

Cetose is a way to better use fats when they become the majority fuel rather than just using FFA.
According to them, it is supposed to be a more effective substrate than glucose.

[Schizophonia]

39 minutes ago, MarkKol said:

I’m sure nuts and seeds are healthy but I’m slowly questioning grains and the food pyramid, it could just be propaganda. 

Squirrel diet 

[MarkKol]

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

Squirrel diet 

This squirrel would beat you in a fight pink city man

[Thought Art]

Keto is bad

[Schizophonia]

4 hours ago, MarkKol said:

This squirrel would beat you

I challenge him to the octagon, nigga.

Quote

in a fight pink city man

Best city in Algeria France 

Just the capitol explodes most of the bogus monuments of central and northern European countries. 

Edited March 14 by Schizophonia

[Jason Actualization]

15 hours ago, MarkKol said:

I’m sure nuts and seeds are healthy but I’m slowly questioning grains and the food pyramid, it could just be propaganda. 

Bingo on the latter, but what makes you so sure of the former?

[Jason Actualization]

15 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Cetose is a way to better use fats when they become the majority fuel rather than just using FFA.
According to them, it is supposed to be a more effective substrate than glucose.

Yeah, their reasoning doesn't resonate with me.

The bottom line is that the brain can utilize ketones when glucose is in short supply, but it prefers glucose as evidenced by the fact that, when both are readily available, the brain burns glucose.

The brain's preference for glucose is why gluconeogenesis even exists.

Throughout human history a reliable carbohydrate source was not always available and so we needed a backup fuel supply. Having a generator (ketosis) kick in when the electricity goes out (carbohydrates are scarce) is useful, but not the optimal way to power your home long-term after the electricity (carbs) comes back.

Even a FULLY keto-adapted person needs 30-40 grams of glucose for the brain per day. I hope folks really let that land, because while sure, you can omit such consumption exogenously, and burn through a lot of amino acids instead, but then your protein requirements greatly increase (carbohydrates are protein-sparing).

Carbohydrates are not causing the human health crisis we currently face. Unfortunately they have been erroneously demonized.

Perhaps these folks no longer exist, but if there any remaining keto proponents who submit that the brain does not need glucose, here is the test they need to run: inject a traditionally fatal amount of rapid-acting insulin. If they are fully adapted to ketones and their brain no longer requires glucose, they should observe no ill effects whatsoever as they should be immune to the blood glucose drop.