Questions about Keto

[Michael569]

14 hours ago, Jason Actualization said:

if there any remaining keto proponents

You know I was thinking this too. Its like the whole keto movement has died out a bit? I don't know its because eventually they all burned out and got back to carbs and disappeared from social or they keep going but secretly lie about their diets because they have two much invested at this point. 

Even their arguments have always been completely non-creative and not even interesting. Some of the other fad groups at least make effort to sound convincing or lean onto some form of evidence, albeit poor and cherrypicked but with keto it was always like "You don't even believe that yourself mate"

From all the fad diets, keto & raw vegan are probably at the bottom of the barrel. Well, keeping a  few like Jenny Craig, Weight Watchers, South Beach & Atkins aside ofcourse but those have kinda run their course at this point

Edited March 15 by Michael569

[Schizophonia]

15 hours ago, Jason Actualization said:

Yeah, their reasoning doesn't resonate with me.

The bottom line is that the brain can utilize ketones when glucose is in short supply, but it prefers glucose as evidenced by the fact that, when both are readily available, the brain burns glucose.

They could according to this logic say alcohol is the favorite substrat for the body.

Glucose can technically cause glycation damages, so the body including the brain would metabolise it quickly to limitate the damages. 

15 hours ago, Jason Actualization said:

The brain's preference for glucose is why gluconeogenesis even exists.

Why ?

Glucose could be a usefull substrat in a certain context and be generated accordingly, without neither being the main energetic substrat. 

15 hours ago, Jason Actualization said:

Throughout human history a reliable carbohydrate source was not always available and so we needed a backup fuel supply. Having a generator (ketosis) kick in when the electricity goes out (carbohydrates are scarce) is useful, but not the optimal way to power your home long-term after the electricity (carbs) comes back.

Why ?

15 hours ago, Jason Actualization said:

Even a FULLY keto-adapted person needs 30-40 grams of glucose for the brain per day.

 

Does it necesseraly means that glucose should be the main substrat for the brain ? 

Btw, certain parts of the body, particularly muscles, consume mainly fat.

 

15 hours ago, Jason Actualization said:

Carbohydrates are not causing the human health crisis we currently face. Unfortunately they have been erroneously demonized.

15 hours ago, Jason Actualization said:

Perhaps these folks no longer exist, but if there any remaining keto proponents who submit that the brain does not need glucose, here is the test they need to run: inject a traditionally fatal amount of rapid-acting insulin. If they are fully adapted to ketones and their brain no longer requires glucose, they should observe no ill effects whatsoever as they should be immune to the blood glucose drop.

Agree

 

[Schizophonia]

@Jason ActualizationI'm not anti carbonydrates 

[Jason Actualization]

3 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

@Jason ActualizationI'm not anti carbonydrates 

Lol, yes I recognize that, great discussion nevertheless.

4 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

They could according to this logic say alcohol is the favorite substrat for the body.

But where is alcohol found in nature in appreciable/toxic amounts in whole food? Glucose, unlike alcohol, neither poses hepatotoxic concerns, nor in any way deleterious in healthy individuals who maintain physiologically sound blood sugar levels (glucose is not what's causing insulin resistance, but excess fructose is certainly contributory).

4 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Why ?

Perhaps I should rephrase and say that the brain's need for glucose is why gluconeogenesis exists.

4 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Glucose could be a usefull substrat in a certain context and be generated accordingly, without neither being the main energetic substrat. 

Glucose is absolutely essential at the end of the day, no matter how keto adapted one is. I still maintain that glucose is the preferred energy source, but perhaps that is less granularly able to be elucidated than is the necessity of glucose.

4 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Btw, certain parts of the body, particularly muscles, consume mainly fat.

At rest, yes, but for example, to meet the demands of a weight training session, anaerobic glycolysis will demand the use of carbohydrates (glycogen) stored in the muscles.

My preference is to consume a carbohydrate rich diet (200+ grams daily) with enough dietary fat to optimize my endocrine system (1g/kg) and by doing this, in concert with infrequent meals (2 per day without snacking in between) I consider myself extremely metabolically flexible.

The keto/carnivore folks who submit that the Randle cycle is my enemy (because I co-consume plentiful amounts of both carbohydrates and fats) are also the same folks who fail to appreciate the importance of energy balance. They actually believe that calories are entirely irrelevant, which is, quite frankly, beyond me to cognize their contention.

[MarkKol]

On 15/03/2024 at 1:35 AM, Jason Actualization said:

Bingo on the latter, but what makes you so sure of the former?

I like you bro, I hope we can meet IRL one day, and I don't think meat is unhealthy, I just don't believe in the linoleic acid thing, sure I try to keep my omega 6's below or the same as my omega 3's, and sure I agree that those vegetable oils look processed, but to say that something like walnuts or chia is unhealthy because it contains linoleic acid just doesn't make any sense to me. Vegetable oils were introduced with McDonalds burgers and french fries, to say that It's the linoleic acid in these foods that causes our health issues is like saying rat poison is poisonous because of its smell and taste. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Schizophonia]

3 minutes ago, MarkKol said:

I like you bro, I hope we can meet IRL one day, and I don't think meat is unhealthy, I just don't believe in the linoleic acid thing, sure I try to keep my omega 6's below or the same as my omega 3's, and sure I agree that those vegetable oils look processed, but to say that something like walnuts or chia is unhealthy because it contains linoleic acid just doesn't make any sense to me. Vegetable oils were introduced with McDonalds burgers and french fries, to say that It's the linoleic acid in these foods that causes our health issues is like saying rat poison is poisonous because of its smell and taste. Maybe I'm wrong.

I'm pretty sure the O6/O3 ratio doesn't have virtual reality.

All there are are theories about prostaglandins, in fact nuts like almonds make me feel good and increase my ejaculatory volume.
If I eat too much saturated fat, my headaches come back like when I was little.

 

Edited March 16 by Schizophonia

[shree]

Hi guys, sorry for a super late response,

 

 

I wanted to share my journey with the ketogenic diet over the past three weeks, the challenges I've faced, and seek any advice or insights you might have.

I started keto with the hope of improving my energy levels and overall well-being. My diet has been focused on high-fat, moderate-protein, and low-carbohydrate foods, aiming to induce nutritional ketosis for its well-documented benefits.

Challenges Encountered:

Energy Levels: Despite strictly following the diet, my energy levels have been disappointingly low. I've struggled with feeling weak and lethargic throughout the day, which was surprising and contrary to the increased energy many report.

Digestive Discomfort: After incorporating MCT oil into my routine, specifically a large spoonful in my bulletproof coffee, I experienced significant digestive discomfort and NO noticeable improvement in energy or cognitive function.

Fora 6 Data: I've been monitoring my ketone levels using the Fora 6 device. Initially, my readings were below the nutritional ketosis range (0.3 mmol/L), and after some adjustments, they've hovered around 0.4 mmol/L. Despite these low readings indicating that I'm not fully in ketosis, adjusting my diet hasn't seemed to help.

MCT Oil: Surprisingly, taking MCT oil hasn't provided the energy boost or cognitive clarity many report. I'm questioning whether my metabolic response or perhaps an underlying issue is affecting its efficacy for me.

Dietary Adjustments:

I've made efforts to balance electrolytes and stay hydrated, as I understand these are crucial on keto. I've also experimented with the timing and amount of food and MCT oil intake to see if there were any positive changes, to no avail.

Thoughts and Reflections:

Given the persistent low energy and lack of expected benefits, I'm contemplating whether the ketogenic diet is suitable for me. I'm considering if underlying health issues, possibly related to thyroid health as suggested by Anthony William in his books, might be influencing my experience. I'm eating almost opposite to his recommendations, focusing on foods I should avoid according to his guidance.

I'm wondering if I should try different dietary approach that might address potential thyroid issues or other underlying health concerns more directly.

 

Has anyone experienced similar challenges during their keto diet, and if so, how did you address them?

Could the lack of response to MCT oil and low ketone readings despite a strict keto diet indicate an underlying issue I should investigate?

Would it be wise to explore dietary changes more in line with Anthony William's recommendations for thyroid health, or should I give my body more time to adapt to keto?

I'm open to any insights, personal experiences, or advice you might have. Thank you for taking the time to read about my journey and for any guidance you can provide.

 

I have an appointment with my family doctor in 20 minutes and plan to request a check on my thyroid due to my persistent issues with energy levels, mood, and other related symptoms. I will not mention anything about my attempt with the keto diet, since I stopped it yesterday. I'll report back here afterwards with any updates or insights gained from the discussion.

[Michael569]

@shree Why not just try a moderate approach? Moderate carbs, moderate fat, moderate protein. Focus on quality and reduce processed food in favour of whole food—a Mediterranean style of eating, for example. Choose the healthiest of each macro group and leave the rest. You'd probably feel much better, and your energy would come back. 

Carbohydrate-free diets are notoriously difficult to manage if you don't have deep knowledge of nutrition and can't properly structure them, it is just hell and people end up tired and depressed, not to mention broke on all the pointless supplements. They may not even be necessary if you are a healthy person. 

Btw I'm not surprised that MCT didn't do anything, frankly I consider MCT an absolute garbage of a health product that is nothing but overpriced, glorified free fatty acids that most likely end up used, by your liver,  alongside free fatty acids from eggs you had for breakfast, in some random metabolic process. The evidence on MCT is so uninteresting and so poor that it is hardly even worth mentioning. 

Try a better balanced diet and you won't need any supplements  Not to mention if you do that, you'll have more energy to lift weights, hike, bike, spend time with family/partner and do all the things that you love and enjoy rather than neurotically focusing on juggling an eating disorder diet (which is mostly what non-medically-prescribed keto is) with measuring some random biomarker in your blood that will continuously go up and down. Its just such a neurotic and miserable way of living when people do that 

Hope that helps. Ignore if this does not resonate 

Edited March 27 by Michael569

[shree]

5 hours ago, Michael569 said:

@shree Why not just try a moderate approach? Moderate carbs, moderate fat, moderate protein. Focus on quality and reduce processed food in favour of whole food—a Mediterranean style of eating, for example. Choose the healthiest of each macro group and leave the rest. You'd probably feel much better, and your energy would come back. 

Carbohydrate-free diets are notoriously difficult to manage if you don't have deep knowledge of nutrition and can't properly structure them, it is just hell and people end up tired and depressed, not to mention broke on all the pointless supplements. They may not even be necessary if you are a healthy person. 

Btw I'm not surprised that MCT didn't do anything, frankly I consider MCT an absolute garbage of a health product that is nothing but overpriced, glorified free fatty acids that most likely end up used, by your liver,  alongside free fatty acids from eggs you had for breakfast, in some random metabolic process. The evidence on MCT is so uninteresting and so poor that it is hardly even worth mentioning. 

Try a better balanced diet and you won't need any supplements  Not to mention if you do that, you'll have more energy to lift weights, hike, bike, spend time with family/partner and do all the things that you love and enjoy rather than neurotically focusing on juggling an eating disorder diet (which is mostly what non-medically-prescribed keto is) with measuring some random biomarker in your blood that will continuously go up and down. Its just such a neurotic and miserable way of living when people do that 

Hope that helps. Ignore if this does not resonate 

Hey @Michael569

Your post is super helpful, thanks!

 

Two years ago, I was at the peak of my physical condition. I could manage deadlifts at 6 sets of 6 reps with 120+kg, engage in full-body training in a fasted state right after night shifts, embark on long-distance cycling, and train in MMA. My energy levels were high, and I felt strong and capable.

However, over the last two years, I've experienced a drastic decline in my energy levels. The thought of engaging in the sports and activities I once loved now seems unimaginable. Despite getting a good 8 hours of sleep, I wake up exhausted and struggle to find the energy for my day.

I understand the importance of a healthy and balanced diet, but given my sudden change in energy and strength, I'm starting to think that diet alone might not be the solution. 

 

I visited my family doctor today and had blood work done for a comprehensive overview; additionally, my thyroid will be checked. However, this is a separate issue. I'll start a new topic so we don't stray too far off-topic.

[Jason Actualization]

On 3/28/2024 at 5:28 AM, shree said:

I understand the importance of a healthy and balanced diet, but given my sudden change in energy and strength, I'm starting to think that diet alone might not be the solution. 

Nutrient deficiencies develop over a period of months/years and can rear their ugly head in a moment. I would be curious to see what the comprehensive overview reveals, and then go from there.

[shree]

10 hours ago, Jason Actualization said:

Nutrient deficiencies develop over a period of months/years and can rear their ugly head in a moment. I would be curious to see what the comprehensive overview reveals, and then go from there.

Hi @Jason Actualization Thanks for your insight! I've created a new topic more relevant to my health issues.