What Happens When Non-duality Is Not Included In Actualization Work?

[Epiphany_Inspired]

frustrated that I must type this again...universe, do I need better editing?...better memory?...what is the lesson?. .does continually re-typing help me somehow?

Anyway, I've been going to some awesome PD workshops, and having deeper conversations (of course this is rad) but I've noticed a theme that seems potentially problematic. Teachers/ guides and peers that are unwilling to be open-minded to non-duality and the effects of this.

In learning, some self-mastery techniques seem to clash with non-dual perception. When I ask the instructors questions about this they either don't get it, or seem unwilling to accept the possibility.

In conversations, most of my peers don't seem to think non-dually at all...they think it's flaky, crazy, or it just goes flying by with no willingness to consider it, or ability to grasp it.

I totally accept that it's simply another perception, like any of our other lenses, and restrain from rigidity in that too...at the same time, ND is pretty counter-intuitive to the way our culture typically perceives things...so it's usually easier to think dually...

Are there stages one must go through in dual thinking before really entering the realm of non-duality? If the personal development techniques that embrace duality may be helpful to me at this point, would I work with them as is, or try to convert them into a non-dual version, if possible?

How do non-dual thinkers typically connect with, and relate to dual thinkers and vice versa?

 

 

[Leo Gura]

Of course, which is why I release a lot of videos about epistemology, paradigms, skepticism, naive realism, psychedelics, etc. Because the mind is blocked up by mainstream social thinking. Most people cannot even begin to hear true personal development teachings, let alone act to embody them.

But you CAN do regular, dualistic self-help. It will be helpful to you, it just won't fix most of the deep root problems you have. So if you can stomach the nondual teachings and are willing to work harder with less immediate payoff, then that's your bet strategy.

Like people who aren't yet ready to eat true health food, at least they can order the salad at McDonalds instead of the Big Mac.

Most traditional self-help is geared to help people become more successful, not to actually become conscious of the truth. But without learning the truth, you're just running off of delusion, so your efforts at success will be delusional in the end. Because you got your priorities backwards. Truth must be priority #1 if you want the best results. But truth is a very acquired taste.

[Principium Nexus]

@Epiphany_Inspired  Non-dual thinkers know that the origin of all is one, the duality is created in the mind by putting labels on "things". The non-dual thinker can rest in the fact that those are all labels (or symbolic tools) that help you but are not fundamentally true in nature. In that sense dualistic thinking because of it's symbolic nature is even more ridiculous because it has no ground except from the other dualities that define each other.

Duality is identification, non-duality just is. I think dualistic thinking can be very handy but always question if the paradigm where it is grounded in feels the most genuine or sound.

[SchallUndRauch]

I consider myself a dualist. Maybe that's gonna change at some point, but it is, what it is, right now. But I've contemplated this a lot, and I don't think dualism and non-dualism are necessarily that much different. What causes what shifts, and you're going to make a few different connections here and there, but in a bigger picture, even simple values come out way ahead in terms of understanding each other. I don't think there's a ladder like you describe, and if there is, my opinion is that it's a very very high one, which isn't really the topic of the discussion. The rigidity you describe isn't something that's exclusive to dualists. There are many people that believe in some kind of non-dualism, even if they don't know the word. If you talk to moderate Christians in western countries, their abstraction of god is pretty much what consciousness is to non-dualism, and for them to assume a dualistic point of view is just as alien as religion is to an atheist. That rigidity is something else, you will find it in almost all people.

 

It's a way of thinking people are very used to. It's not just a lens, it's a beaten path in a huge jungle. You are frustrated by the way they don't consider how you think, just how they are frustrated by your suggestion to change perspectives, when they don't have an internal reason to do it, other than your word. And there are reasons why this dynamic developed. Trying to put yourself in another persons shoes is hard and often very much impossible. If the Dalai Lama came around the corner and I told you "just see the world like that dude does", you wouldn't be able to. And if every day is a challenge to your life, like it was for the most part of our evolution, you don't have time for it, so these patterns emerge. Think about how much time you really spent, until you got to the point, where you are right now, and if you can expect others to follow up on that. If I asked you to consider self development from an assembly language point of view, because god is obviously an AI, what would your reaction be?

[Epiphany_Inspired]

@Leo GuraThanks,  I am beginning to acquire a taste for truth....it's definitely like the stinky natto they often serve in a separate room in Japanese restaurants...lol...but I like that now too...I understand what you are saying, I guess my concern is, in choosing the best bet longterm....it may affect my progress shorter-term...and progress helps me stay on track...then again, despite the odd flavor, truth is everything!

 @Principium Nexus thanks! if I question the "grounded in" there is usually intense rigid judgement...I will look for the most genuine options, thanks!

@SchallUndRauch thanks...it's possible that this is true...that the rigidity is not as specific as it appears to be...

I have a lifetime of experience with being frustrated that others don't consider my unique perspectives...and I have recently become used to accepting,  in general, there are a lot of different/valid perceptions, and also mass cultural closed mindedness...at the same time, my personal experience is that, for me, this issue is duality specific...i'm glad there is likely no ladder though...

I would be SO stoked to meet the Dali Lama, I might pee myself with excitement if he gave me personal advice...lol...I'd actually attempt it...i'd begin by observing and questioning the "dude"...while trying to gain his favor so that I could hang out with him often...I get that we can never truly know another's mind, and that most people in our culture don't undertake actualization...but what am I missing?

I am surprisingly willing to consider the AI god theory...and have even contemplated something similar myself once in relation to the perfection with the connecting web of all the universe...my reaction is "hmmm, interesting concept"...is that the reaction you were expecting? I'm not sure what this means?...

I often think quite literally, especially when it comes to reading (your comment) and writing (my comment)...I am fairly sure that you wanted me to learn something from the questions you posed, not answer them...but I find your lesson is somewhat illusive...

Edited April 14, 2017 by Epiphany_Inspired
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[Leo Gura]

@Epiphany_Inspired Depends on your goals. If you shoot straight for enlightenment, expect it to derail many of your materialistic success goals. But then again, it's not like getting success will do anything for your happiness level.

[Elephant]

Ofc getting success it telling something about your happiness level? It's maybe not the success in and of itself that does it. But it tells sometng about your psyche and development that you've succeeded with something? It says that you have a relative good self-esteem and are independent, wich brings some happiness compared to someone that can't succeed. @Leo Gura

[Shin]

3 hours ago, Elephant said:

Ofc getting success it telling something about your happiness level? It's maybe not the success in and of itself that does it. But it tells sometng about your psyche and development that you've succeeded with something? It says that you have a relative good self-esteem and are independent, wich brings some happiness compared to someone that can't succeed. @Leo Gura

 

Only very successful people will consider spirituality as a possibility, because they had it all, and still, they feel something is missing (someone like Leo).

In fact, having a good self-esteem and being totally independant without knowing about spirituality, is probably one of the best way to lock yourself up into your form identity and never think about it seriously.

In a sick way, only those who suffered enough or struggled to figured it all will be able to really get the message.

Not that it can't happen for the average person, but it will take them way more time to really understand the concepts, that's why you have some people who are seeking for 40+ years ...

Hopefully, we have people like Eckhart Tolle who explain the all thing very consicely now, but again, who listen to him ?
Guys with a four+ 0 paycheck who got a trophy wife ?
Probably not.

@Elephant Exactly

Edited April 14, 2017 by Shin

[Arkandeus]

26 minutes ago, Shin said:

 

Only very successful people will consider spirituality as a possibility, because they had it all, and still, they feel something is missing (someone like Leo).

In fact, having a good self-esteem and being totally independant without knowing about spirituality, is probably one of the best way to lock yourself up into your form identity and never think about it seriously.

In a sick way, only those who suffered enough or struggled to figured it all will be able to really get the message.

Not that it can't happen for the average person, but it will take them way more time to really understand the concepts, that's why you have some people who are seeking for 40+ years ...

Hopefully, we have people like Eckhart Tolle who explain the all thing very consicely now, but again, who listen to him ?
Guys with a four+ 0 paycheck who got a trophy wife ?
Probably not.

You remind me of one my personal investigations this week. 

That is to enlighten, we will have to completely accept the state of not being enlightened.
How can we be at peace with our world, how can we be at peace with the people in our world that are not enlightened? 

If we cannot accept and love the state of not being enlightened then there is conflict. And to love is to understand. 

It makes for a very interesting approach....I've noticed not-enlightened people are a roadblock to me. 
I have this desire to ''teach'' them , to ''free'' them. 
It really makes me realize that I view people as an intimate part of me, a part of my identity, so much that I automatically want to apply what I learn to them.  
Otherwise if I'm enlightened and others are not it feels sorta wrong?But that's the cue.

It is possible to be enlightened and not enlightened at the same time. 

Through my intimate acceptance of the lives of people who are not seeking the spiritual path, I am not-enlightened and at the same time I am enlightened through my personal endeavors and those of my fellow lightbringers.

So the ''ultimate'' enlightenment might be to be both enlightened and not-enlightened at the same, through the people in your world that make the ''total'' you up. 

To merge with the present moment, to be with All That is, is also to merge with all that your personal self is NOT trying to be and thus rise above the personal self to embody a greater all-encompassing self. 
I think I'm starting to really respect the power of acceptance...

 

Edited April 14, 2017 by Arkandeus

[Elephant]

1 hour ago, Arkandeus said:

 

1 hour ago, Shin said:

In fact, having a good self-esteem and being totally independant without knowing about spirituality, is probably one of the best way to lock yourself up into your form identity and never think about it seriously.

 

           

The ideal is ofc to have a solid self structure when you do that work, rather than using it as an escape for the more basic development work that's well needed.