Why Absolute Awakening Is An Illusion Per Se

[r0ckyreed]

So, I have made several posts about this topic, and I have been wanting to discuss the matter again after Leo's Blog Post on Liberal Vs. Conservativism Simulation with the Global and Local Maxima concepts. So, here I go. But first, you must watch the video to get the idea of global and local maxima.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p11-oggW1E&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Factualized.org%2F&source_ve_path=MTc4NDI0

The thing is that when you awaken, you will think you have reached the global maxima, but in reality you are still at a local maxima. There is no getting rid of that self-deception. It is kind of impossible to awaken to a true global maxima because reality is infinite and your human form will always be finite. The reason why I say "kind of impossible" is because I think it is possible to awaken global maximally, but it is through physical death. You see, when you awaken and reach a high state of truth and understanding, human survival puts constraints on the degrees of awakening possible. Just being a human is already an inherent limitation on consciousness.

Just think about an alien state of intelligence and how they may have significant degrees of understanding of reality than we do. Now, think of an ant. Do you think that an ant could ever reach an awakened state compared to a human? No! It can only reach an awakened state relative to being an ant. But what would that even look like? We cannot even imagine this because we are not an ant. Now, do you think a human could reach an awakened state of consciousness? Yes? Relative to what? The awakened state you have as a human will be no more deeper than that of an ant because reality is infinite. You will have an alien who will already have a deeper understanding of reality than you ever will. And then there will be another type of alien who has an even deeper understanding and so on and so on.

Awakening seems to be only applied to the species. When we say Leo is Awake, we are essentially saying that he has reached a high level of understanding compared to the average human level of consciousness. When we say Leo is Awake, we are not saying that he is global maximally Awake, but he is local maximally awake because there are still infinite degrees of awakening. Buddhism is a local maxima even though there are some Buddhists will think the Buddha was global maximally awake. The same with Jesus and the same with Leo. Do you see the problem? Awakening is relative in a sense because there will always be higher levels of awakenings. So that means that one awakening you have will be relative to a higher or lower awakening that you could have. For instance, no-self is a form of awakening, but it isn't the highest. Understanding how God exists, what reality is, and why there is evil/conflict is another type of awakening that you have. And all of those insights will be affected and constrained by the limitations of human understanding and the influence of human survival. The paradox is Leo is now talking about genetics impacting relationships/sexuality, but I still think genetics is overlooked when it comes to spirituality. Our human genes and brain already limit our understanding of reality because these were created by Reality. Do you think we can ever comprehend Reality with the brain and genes that reality gave us? I am basically using Leo's argument that "Brains Do Not Exist" against itself here. If our brain is imaginary and if understanding happens through a functioning imaginary brain and imaginary genetics, then any awakening produced will also be imaginary?

I tried to explain this concept via Godel's Incompleteness Theorem and now I have explained it via Global/Local Maxima. I am not sure how else I can explain this insight to you all. But the global and local maxima I think is the closest idea that I can think of to illustrate that there is no final or global maxima awakening. Leo is awake relative to the human species and 3D perception. An alien is awake relative to the alien species at a 4D or whatever dimension. Death is the absolute awakening because that is the moment where the finite form merges back into the Infinite Source. The finite form can never grasp the whole. Reality is infinitely mysterious.

What are your thoughts? What am I missing? 

Edited March 3 by r0ckyreed

[Ishanga]

@r0ckyreed You are not the Body or Mind, both are "finite" as You say, they have boundaries, what is You is boundless, we as Humans can touch this, be connected to it and function from it as a Foundation, while still being Embodied and living a normal type life with normal relationships, jobs, and such things, the only difference is that You will be untouched by situations, transparent, involved but not entangled, free will is your way, you determine how do to be, your destiny is in your hands, if You want to drop the Body/Mind You can and join the realm of Oneness, Consciousness whatever you want to label it...Yoga and other Eastern Spiritual practices are all about this, how to reach it, how to dissolve into it or stay here and function and be on the edge of it in a way, it depends on many things... 

Many Spiritual masters have done this, Buddha is said to be one that can come back recreate a body and function here and now, even though his body died some 2000+yrs ago...

 

I wouldn't say Awaken is an illusion, its just there are levels, too many here are absolutist, its all or nothing, this is the wrong way to look at it, there is one living survival level only, then other living at higher individual Awareness levels, they want more than to eat, drink, reproduce, sleep, work and die,,The chakra system is involved with this, if the intensity of the Energy is in the lower one, your in survival mode, the higher up it goes life focuses on different things and Awareness...

Edited March 3 by Ishanga

[Princess Arabia]

If there is no self, who is awakening? Is the self awakening to itself as being no self? Is it God awakening to itself as God? What does no self even mean? If we're all connected, then how can you awaken without me being awakened? We're connected, right. 

We say everything is God, even the tree is God. Does the tree awaken? Why is God asleep to itself as a human only? Why out of everything in the whole wide world and everything that exists in nature and Reality, why is it only humans that can awaken or are seeking to awaken? If aliens exists, do they also awaken? if not, why?

Nothing stays still, everything vibrates at certain speeds. Things are always changing. What are we awakening from and to what, if nothing stays the same? Awareness is always aware by its nature. That's why it's called Awareness. Is it aware of awakening too? Then, who or what is aware of awakening? Those are two distinct things. Awareness and Awakening.

If we are not the body nor the mind, what are we using to awaken? Is it the mind, which we are not? We're using something we are not to awaken to something that we are?

Can someone please quote any of these questions and answer them please.

[Mu_]

38 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

So, I have made several posts about this topic, and I have been wanting to discuss the matter again after Leo's Blog Post on Liberal Vs. Conservativism Simulation with the Global and Local Maxima concepts. So, here I go. But first, you must watch the video to get the idea of global and local maxima.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p11-oggW1E&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Factualized.org%2F&source_ve_path=MTc4NDI0

The thing is that when you awaken, you will think you have reached the global maxima, but in reality you are still at a local maxima. There is no getting rid of that self-deception. It is kind of impossible to awaken to a true global maxima because reality is infinite and your human form will always be finite. The reason why I say "kind of impossible" is because I think it is possible to awaken global maximally, but it is through physical death. You see, when you awaken and reach a high state of truth and understanding, human survival puts constraints on the degrees of awakening possible. Just being a human is already an inherent limitation on consciousness.

Just think about an alien state of intelligence and how they may have significant degrees of understanding of reality than we do. Now, think of an ant. Do you think that an ant could ever reach an awakened state compared to a human? No! It can only reach an awakened state relative to being an ant. But what would that even look like? We cannot even imagine this because we are not an ant. Now, do you think a human could reach an awakened state of consciousness? Yes? Relative to what? The awakened state you have as a human will be no more deeper than that of an ant because reality is infinite. You will have an alien who will already have a deeper understanding of reality than you ever will. And then there will be another type of alien who has an even deeper understanding and so on and so on.

Awakening seems to be only applied to the species. When we say Leo is Awake, we are essentially saying that he has reached a high level of understanding compared to the average human level of consciousness. When we say Leo is Awake, we are not saying that he is global maximally Awake, but he is local maximally awake because there are still infinite degrees of awakening. Buddhism is a local maxima even though there are some Buddhists will think the Buddha was global maximally awake. The same with Jesus and the same with Leo. Do you see the problem? Awakening is relative in a sense because there will always be higher levels of awakenings. So that means that one awakening you have will be relative to a higher or lower awakening that you could have. For instance, no-self is a form of awakening, but it isn't the highest. Understanding how God exists, what reality is, and why there is evil/conflict is another type of awakening that you have. And all of those insights will be affected and constrained by the limitations of human understanding and the influence of human survival. The paradox is Leo is now talking about genetics impacting relationships/sexuality, but I still think genetics is overlooked when it comes to spirituality. Our human genes and brain already limit our understanding of reality because these were created by Reality. Do you think we can ever comprehend Reality with the brain and genes that reality gave us? I am basically using Leo's argument that "Brains Do Not Exist" against itself here. If our brain is imaginary and if understanding happens through a functioning imaginary brain and imaginary genetics, then any awakening produced will also be imaginary?

I tried to explain this concept via Godel's Incompleteness Theorem and now I have explained it via Global/Local Maxima. I am not sure how else I can explain this insight to you all. But the global and local maxima I think is the closest idea that I can think of to illustrate that there is no final or global maxima awakening. Leo is awake relative to the human species and 3D perception. An alien is awake relative to the alien species at a 4D or whatever dimension. Death is the absolute awakening because that is the moment where the finite form merges back into the Infinite Source. The finite form can never grasp the whole. Reality is infinitely mysterious.

What are your thoughts? What am I missing? 

Hmmm, where to start and what to say.  I agree Reality is mysterious and yet to a degree understandable, although we could probably argue over what understandable means, lol.  That aside,  I'm going to be forward and breakdown your argument in hopes that it will open you up to what I think you are more deeply interested in, which is Truth.

Here are some things upon further examination where if you take your ego out of the equation, you can probably agree your current view assumes.

1.  Your argument seems to assume there are actual bodies/humans/aliens, of which create possible limitations on something called "awakening".  Perhaps this is not true.

2.  You assume there are infinite and finite things, which perhaps there is not.

3.  You assume there are degree's to something called "awakening"  Perhaps there are no degrees.

Would you agree with this assessment?

What if its possible to see and understand its all only God, all only you and this mysterious unfolding of experience in different ways is You?  And yes knowing  all possible ways in which experience is possible may never happen, which is fine and means nothing about anything, this is not a limitation of any sort determined by anything......

 

[Ishanga]

@Princess Arabia This is the problem with too many sources of information, all saying something a bit different to not really help with Awakening but to get hits and like and such things, it causes massive confusion, ppl thinking and focusing on God, No Mind, No thingness and such things...

Just Be Peaceful of Your own nature, then go from there, see what arises naturally, don't think Enlightenment and stuff, just be natural and at Peace not via thinking it but like hunger it just comes natural, then Life will be open to You like sunlight is...

[Mu_]

9 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

If there is no self, who is awakening? Is the self awakening to itself as being no self? Is it God awakening to itself as God? What does no self even mean? If we're all connected, then how can you awaken without me being awakened? We're connected, right. 

We say everything is God, even the tree is God. Does the tree awaken? Why is God asleep to itself as a human only? Why out of everything in the whole wide world and everything that exists in nature and Reality, why is it only humans that can awaken or are seeking to awaken? If aliens exists, do they also awaken? if not, why?

Nothing stays still, everything vibrates at certain speeds. Things are always changing. What are we awakening from and to what, if nothing stays the same? Awareness is always aware by its nature. That's why it's called Awareness. Is it aware of awakening too? Then, who or what is aware of awakening? Those are two distinct things. Awareness and Awakening.

If we are not the body nor the mind, what are we using to awaken? Is it the mind, which we are not? We're using something we are not to awaken to something that we are?

Can someone please quote any of these questions and answer them please.

I'll try and answer a few, however I'm not sure where you stand in these questions or your pursuits.  What are you genuinely wanting to understand ultimately?  I can tell your confused about something and wanting to understand something, but what is that?

[Water by the River]

51 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

What am I missing? 

An Alien who tells you that this is the perfect recipe to forever chase your own tail (n+1), or endless higher "Awakenings" (and only Awakenings into ever changing form & manifestation btw., not into your eternal Nature). And being so busy doing that that you never actually look deep enough & realize what you have been before your parents were born. And more importantly, what you will still be after you die. And not just conceptual guessing or believing, but actually knowing.

I mean, even our host said its endless... Endless "Awakenings"

When is it enough? How many Awakenings? When are you happy & satisfied? Always right after the next Awakening. And then one more. And one more. Forever, never reaching the final Awakening.

But its a free country, so...

[Breakingthewall]

There is an awakening to what you are and that's it. You are what you are, not a different thing every day. It's something definitive, you are that, that's it. Then you can start with the stories about how the trees disappear when you don't look at them and if they are still there, but that is something else, that is seeing deeply, breaking the veils of reality, opening your mind and your heart as much as possible you can, mysticism. Open yourself to the flow of intelligence that reality is, in this there are degrees, and no one will ever reach the full degree, I would say, it is mortal.

then there are two things: realizing what you are, what is, existence without any label or structure, and there are no degrees, it is that and if there is structure it is not that, and that's it. and on the other hand open your third eye or whatever that is called

[Argonaut]

@r0ckyreed this post was spot on. There's always a higher awakening. One thing I've been thinking about... although its really weird... is what would happen if you tortured a mystic. At a certain point of pain, I think every human would become identified with their ego. We only know how awakened someone is within the limits of their tiny human life. 

This topic is what has turned me away from some of @Leo Gura's most recent perspectives. Even with copious amounts of psychedelics, there are always higher awakenings, so why harm your body and disregard your human life for a temporary experience of something that you can never stabilize? I'm more of a fan of using psychedelics to have temporary experiences that allow me to raise my baseline consciousness as much as possible and embody the truth as much as my human self can. Seems like the point of the game is to enjoy it, not to constantly worry about trying to play a more advanced game and shit on the one you're currently in.

[Princess Arabia]

23 minutes ago, Mu_ said:

I'll try and answer a few, however I'm not sure where you stand in these questions or your pursuits.  What are you genuinely wanting to understand ultimately?  I can tell your confused about something and wanting to understand something, but what is that?

If there's anyone here to awaken. Not saying we don't exist, but what do we exist as, and is that, whatever it is, is it really awakening or is that just another thought. As far as I know I'm aware and cannot be what I am aware of, not even awakening.

Edited March 3 by Princess Arabia

[Princess Arabia]

7 minutes ago, Argonaut said:

is what would happen if you tortured a mystic.

I always wondered that too. Like if Moojii's house was to burn down or if a man appeared at one of his Satsangs pointing a machine gun to his head or if he was to lose all his possessions or something along these walls, how will the act. Will he be like "Awareness, I AM Awareness, I AM Awareness, I AM Awareness, OHM. Lol

Edited March 3 by Princess Arabia

[Breakingthewall]

Absolute awakening is something extremely simple. Just remove all the structures and that's it. You are what you are, there is nothing that you can do with that. This is nothing misterious, you are that right now. But this doesn't mean at all that you understand the mechanic of the cosmos. Zero. Then the interesting game starts, penetrating, see, open yourself to the abyss ... or not. Maybe you prefer to do anything else 

Edited March 3 by Breakingthewall

[Princess Arabia]

9 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

There is an awakening to what you are and that's it. You are what you are, not a different thing every day. It's something definitive, you are that, that's it. Then you can start with the stories about how the trees disappear when you don't look at them and if they are still there, but that is something else, that is seeing deeply, breaking the veils of reality, opening your mind and your heart as much as possible you can, mysticism. Open yourself to the flow of intelligence that reality is, in this there are degrees, and no one will ever reach the full degree, I would say, it is mortal.

then there are two things: realizing what you are, what is, existence without any label or structure, and there are no degrees, it is that and if there is structure it is not that, and that's it. and on the other hand open your third eye or whatever that is called

Why does all your comments and responses sound the same. No matter the topic. 

[Mu_]

1 minute ago, Princess Arabia said:

If there's anyone here to awaken. Not saying we don't exist, but what do we exist as, and is that, whatever it is, is it really awakening or is that just another thought.

1.  Is there anyone here to awaken.  I'd say there is a waking up that can happen as an experience, but ultimately there are no here's or theres, a specific you or another.....

2  Not saying we don't exist, but what do we exist as....

haha, what do we exist as.  Like objectively?  Ultimately there is no objectively what we exist as outside ourselves to observe to then explain it as a image or thing to relate to another thing.  On the one hand we are everything so to say, and yet on the other none of those experiences define us objectively or ultimately.  There are no rules in which anything follows including langue and definition itself, you and I are not bound to such strict definitions and traps.  You are free and yet you will suffer in this experience along with anything else that may appear to feel and happen.  This is not a good thing or a bad thing, just a possibility..... 

3.   is it really awakening or is that just another thought....

Hahaha..... I'll leave that one for you to have your own experience with.....

[Breakingthewall]

Just now, Princess Arabia said:

Why does all your comments and responses sound the same. No matter the topic. 

Really? Usually are more like confronting opinions, ideas about the infinity, those things, if the others are real and that. Not about what they call enlightenment, that is totally simple and nothing can be said about it except: remove all the structures 

[Princess Arabia]

27 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

@Princess Arabia This is the problem with too many sources of information, all saying something a bit different to not really help with Awakening but to get hits and like and such things, it causes massive confusion, ppl thinking and focusing on God, No Mind, No thingness and such things...

Just Be Peaceful of Your own nature, then go from there, see what arises naturally, don't think Enlightenment and stuff, just be natural and at Peace not via thinking it but like hunger it just comes natural, then Life will be open to You like sunlight is...

I guess you can't answer any of these questions. These questions arose naturally. Everything that arises is arising naturally by default, even if I'm being forceful about something that's also naturally arising. It's not confusion to ask questions, it's called curiousity. 

[Breakingthewall]

8 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

I always wondered that too. Like if Moojii's house was to burn down or if a man appeared at one of his Satsangs pointing a machine gun to his head or if he was to lose all his possessions or something along these walls, how will the act. Will he be like "Awareness, I AM Awareness, I AM Awareness, I AM Awareness, OHM. Lol

Awakening is realizing what you are in the sense that you exist, you are and what you are is being, no limits ,then forget anything about awareness, god, or anything, and it doesn't mean that you don't mind if anyone stole your money or anything 

[Princess Arabia]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Really? Usually are more like confronting opinions, ideas about the infinity, those things, if the others are real and that. Not about what they call enlightenment, that is totally simple and nothing can be said about it except: remove all the structures 

What does remove all structures mean and how do you remove them.

[Jowblob]

1 minute ago, Princess Arabia said:

I always wondered that too. Like if Moojii's house was to burn down or if a man appeared at one of his Satsangs pointing a machine gun to his head or if he was to lose all his possessions or something along these walls, how will the act. Will he be like "Awareness, I AM Awareness, I AM Awareness, I AM Awareness, OHM. Lol

Nobody is dying, only if they wished for a certain experience. If a man is pointing gun at you and it is not your wish to die you won't die. At higher states of consciousness there is nobody pointing gun at you. No self can have different meanings according to the vibratory realm you're in but ultimately there will always be a self or your own beingness. No matter where you will be the cycle of self splitting into beingness and beingness into self will bd forever. Tree is God and it is you, when you breath in the reality breaths with you all is part of your mind. You are the only one that  can take up the consciousness or limitation of a tree or a wall, but you're god that's why you're walking in an avatar. If you would take the avatar and the dream away you would just flow in your own vibratory beingness and realize that everything was happening in your mind and you're just a mind stuck in nothingness always pondering for an enternity how that is possible and what you are.

Here are your teachings

[Princess Arabia]

6 minutes ago, Mu_ said:

1.  Is there anyone here to awaken.  I'd say there is a waking up that can happen as an experience, but ultimately there are no here's or theres, a specific you or another.....

2  Not saying we don't exist, but what do we exist as....

haha, what do we exist as.  Like objectively?  Ultimately there is no objectively what we exist as outside ourselves to observe to then explain it as a image or thing to relate to another thing.  On the one hand we are everything so to say, and yet on the other none of those experiences define us objectively or ultimately.  There are no rules in which anything follows including langue and definition itself, you and I are not bound to such strict definitions and traps.  You are free and yet you will suffer in this experience along with anything else that may appear to feel and happen.  This is not a good thing or a bad thing, just a possibility..... 

3.   is it really awakening or is that just another thought....

Hahaha..... I'll leave that one for you to have your own experience with.....

OK thanks.