I was happier as a kid

[Salvijus]

2 minutes ago, seriousman24 said:

Meaning is painful isn't it, at least that's what it feels like as the unthinking monkey that I'm feeling like right now.

There are only two options. Either everything is sacred and beautiful. Or everything is meaningless. If you're in between. You're in suffering. 

But I don't want to touch that subject right now. 

[Osaid]

26 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

A human appears interacting with a 'world' appears but it doesn´t seem there is a self in my experience. Until I create it. Then all illusion starts haha.

Right.

The experience of being human is the experience of the world it interacts with.

There is the "experience of being human" but there is no "experience that has a human inside of it."

[CosmicExplorer]

Quote

When you talk to old people, it’s not uncommon for them to say something like, “I’m tired of this life. I hope I die. I just don’t like it anymore.” Now, as a young person, when you hear that, it sounds horrible. You’re thinking, “No, please don’t talk like that, Grandpa. You have so much to live for,” and so on. But from Grandpa’s point of view, from Grandma’s point of view, they have experience fatigue. They have already eaten all the great meals. They’ve already had all the great sex. There’s very little novelty in your life as you get older. And it turns out the novelty is one of the things that makes life enjoyable. So when Grandma and Grandpa say, “I’m ready to go, and really the only reason I don’t jump off a bridge right now is for you guys,” for the family and the loved ones, and maybe even for society if they’re thinking of themselves that way, Grandma and Grandpa are not necessarily depressed, even. They’re just reflecting their experience of their life as an old person. So even though it’s hard as a young person to take that in, it’s worth considering that you’ll be there someday as well.

 

[Salvijus]

2 minutes ago, Osaid said:

If you equate "meaningless" with "neutral" then I agree, but your previous answers indicate that a lack of meaning is equivalent to a lack of care or value, which is not the case.

Thank you for the effort to be on the same page.

Yes I realized the world neutral means to you "without effect" or smth. But what I was trying to say "all effects, big or small ultimately have no value only if you give it value. If you don't give it value. It has no meaning. And it is the ego that determines the value of things" 

[Salvijus]

10 minutes ago, Osaid said:

If you equate "meaningless" with "neutral" then I agree, but your previous answers indicate that a lack of meaning is equivalent to a lack of care or value, which is not the case.

Or in other words,

to pure awareness, all phenomena is a neutral event. Sensations just come and go, energy is dancing, forms come and dissolve and it all means nothing at all... 

Maybe that will land better. 

Edited March 20 by Salvijus

[Osaid]

9 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Yes I realized the world neutral means to you "without effect" or smth. But what I was trying to say "all effects, big or small ultimately have no value only if you give it value. If you don't give it value. It has no meaning. And it is the ego that determines the value of things" 

When you value something, it is because of what that thing exists as. There is an existential element to value beyond meaning. Something sweet can't have the same value as something bitter. You can't decide to make something valuable by thinking of it as valuable, you look at how it impacts existence in the first place. You value things that have no meaning all the time. You value music. You value taste. You value the smell of a flower. Meaning is imagined. Meaning is not the same as value. Thus the ego doesn't determine value, although the ego itself can be seen as valuable. 

Edited March 20 by Osaid

[Breakingthewall]

6 minutes ago, CosmicExplorer said:

 

That's why guys like Hoffman who took LSD until old lived happy until he was 103, because he was in the present, there was no more for him.

[Salvijus]

4 minutes ago, Osaid said:

Meaning is not the same as value

You see. Maybe we just have different English. Because for me these two words are synonymous haha. 

4 minutes ago, Osaid said:

There is an existential element to value beyond meanin

I believe you're trying to say that there is an existential effect that the element produces. Yes. But what I'm trying to say is that the effect is ultimately meaningless to pure awareness. To pure awareness it just another element that is not more important than the other elements in the world. 

Edited March 20 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

7 minutes ago, Osaid said:

Something sweet can't have the same value as something bitter.

Sweet and bitter can have different effect on the body. But to pure awareness both sweet or bitter means nothing at all. Just a temporary passing thing. 

Edited March 20 by Salvijus

[Osaid]

7 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

You see. Maybe we just have different English. Because for me these two words are synonymous haha. 

11 minutes ago, Osaid said:

You value things that have no meaning all the time. You value music. You value taste. You value the smell of a flower.

The value in a flower doesn't come from meaning, it comes from the pure sensation of the smell. The value of taste doesn't come from meaning, it comes from the pure sensation of taste. The value of music doesn't come from meaning, it comes from the pure sensation of sound.

Edited March 20 by Osaid

[Salvijus]

You see. This is beautiful. @Osaid

If we look from the body's point of view then there are things that have more value then others. Like water will have more value then poison to the body. 

To the ego, survival will have more value than anything else. 

But from the perspective that you're not the ego and not the body suddenly nothing means anything anymore. 

Edited March 20 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

11 minutes ago, Osaid said:

The value in a flower doesn't come from meaning, it comes from the pure sensation of the smell. The value of taste doesn't come from meaning, it comes from the pure sensation of taste. The value of music doesn't come from meaning, it comes from the pure sensation of sound.

 

 Mmmm... I don't follow you here. For me value and meaning are literally the same. 

 

11 minutes ago, Osaid said:

comes from the pure sensation of the smell. The value of taste doesn't come from meaning, it comes from the pure sensation of taste.

Okay. I have a good example I believe that will really help. 

Here's a question. 

Of what value is sweet or bitter to a corpse? 

Edited March 20 by Salvijus

[Osaid]

6 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

But from the perspective that you're not the ego and not the body suddenly nothing means anything anymore.

The body has never meant anything. That doesn't remove its value. There is no "neutral state" you reach by removing meaning, you simply just reach existence itself without your imagination about it. Meaning is literally imagination. You don't lose anything but imagination, it does not change the value of what exists, it only changes the value of what is imaginary.

Meaning is not inherently a function of ego either. You can imagine meaning without imagining yourself as separate. Meaning is just a function of your mind to piece things together, which often gets co-opted by the ego. Meaning is what happens when you comprehend words on a screen or read a book.

[Osaid]

2 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Mmmm... I don't follow you here. For me value and meaning are literally the same. 

It is as simple as this:

Why do you prefer apple pie over cherry pie? Because one has more meaning? No, just the sensation of taste. The sensation is void of meaning.

Why do you prefer the smell of a flower over the smell of a trash can? Because one has more meaning? No, just the sensation of smell. The sensation is void of meaning.

Edited March 20 by Osaid

[Salvijus]

6 minutes ago, Osaid said:

Meaning is literally imagination. You don't lose anything but imagination, it does not change the value of what exists

Let me add one tiny thing. 

Yes meaning is imagined I agree. And when all imagined meaning is gone, it does not change the value of what exists. Yes. And that value is total zero. Haha

Edited March 20 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

7 minutes ago, Osaid said:

It is as simple as this:

Why do you prefer apple pie over cherry pie? Because one has more meaning? No, just the sensation of taste. The sensation is void of meaning.

Why do you prefer the smell of a flower over the smell of a trash can? Because one has more meaning? No, just the sensation of smell. The sensation is void of meaning.

Because certain smells are better for the body. And certain foods are better for the body. That's how preferences are made. 

Certain things are better for the ego survival as well. That is another category of value making. 

But from the ultimate point of view. Nothing is better or worse. Everything is equally meaningless/valueless to pure awareness. 

Edited March 20 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

9 minutes ago, Osaid said:

Why do you prefer apple pie over cherry pie?

Does a corpse prefer apple pie or cherry pie?

A corpse does not care. Only ego does. 

Edited March 20 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

🥱We should wrap this up because it's time for me. I enjoyed this conversation tho regardless of the outcome. 

Edited March 20 by Salvijus

[Osaid]

7 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Because certain smells are better for the body. And certain foods are better for the body.

If you observe your experience that's not how it goes. You find the sensation itself pleasurable. You don't find logic behind it in order to find it pleasurable. There is no such thing as a song or smell that is better for the body. You can prefer the taste of one candy over the other, but both are equally bad for the body.

[Salvijus]

5 minutes ago, Osaid said:

If you observe your experience that's not how it goes. You find the sensation itself pleasurable. You don't find logic behind it in order to find it pleasurable. There is no such thing as a song or smell that is better for the body. You can prefer the taste of one candy over the other, but both are equally bad for the body.

No. There is logic behind it. Certain smells open your body up and have many health benefits. And certain smells can be like posinous to your health. Same with sounds. Music is very harmonious and in tune sound collection. If you play out of tune sounds it will be jarring to the ears and it will give a headache to the body

 

Edited March 20 by Salvijus