Should we still be backing Ukraine?

[Bobby_2021]

People act like Putin doesn't know what he is doing. This is far from true.

He went into the special military operation with specific targets.

1. Denazify Ukraine.

2. Demiltarize Ukraine.

3. Prevent NATO expansion into Ukraine.

He has or is exceedingly close to meeting all these objectives. 

How many wars that US fought has met all the objectives they outlined?

They even got their ass handed to them by the taliban, making them stronger than they were.

These western leaders think they are more powerful than they are and that they can win a war with Putin. Putin himself has never expressed any intention for war, but God forbid if they are poking him, he will have no option but to retaliate.

May God be kind enough to bring them back to their senses.

Edited April 26, 2024 by Bobby_2021

[BlueOak]

7 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

It is not just ethnic cleansing in Gaza. Close to 2% of the ENTIRE population of Gaza has died.

Yeah, it leaves a bad taste to argue about it. Morally, there is almost no difference, it's lives being lost, and intent. 

Functionally, Genocide, or the starvation of Gaza is how it is achieved, not through the callous slaughtering of individuals in the streets, which is a war crime. The intent of Israel as a population is what's important to recognize and try to see through all the mess, some want hostages back, very few want peace, some want Hamas destroyed, and some want the entire region wiped, some want a wider war with Iran. Israel operates out of fear of the surrounding countries, and that fear has led the army to declare all Palestinians Hamas. So the population is 'the enemy'. In that scenario, yes, genocide is the appropriate term. It's like what was happening in Ukraine at the worst of it, where the Russian army realized people didn't want them there and did some horrific acts to civilians.

This is the east Turkestan region China has occupied that I was referring to earlier.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China

Edited April 26, 2024 by BlueOak

[BlueOak]

3 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

People act like Putin doesn't know what he is doing. This is far from true.

He went into the special military operation with specific targets.

1. Denazify Ukraine.

2. Demiltarize Ukraine.

3. Prevent NATO expansion into Ukraine.

He has or is exceedingly close to meeting all these objectives. 

How many wars that US fought has met all the objectives they outlined?

They even got their ass handed to them by the taliban, making them stronger than they were.

These western leaders think they are more powerful than they are and that they can win a war with Putin. Putin himself has never expressed any intention for war, but God forbid if they are poking him, he will have no option but to retaliate.

May God be kind enough to bring them back to their senses.

1, There were no Nazi groups in power in Ukraine, so this is a fantasy. The few hundred azov were made into a national guard unit before the war started. Putin has created more far-right sentiment in both countries and possibly decades of violence and hatred to follow in the occupied regions. Should I list the extremist groups in Russia that make up Putin's base?

2, There are more weapons than ever in Ukraine, so this is a failure.

3, This is more likely than ever. It is one way to guarantee he doesn't fight a 9th or 10th war to rebuild the USSR. Previously, it was impossible due to the occupation of Crimea and people not wanting a war with Russia.

Edited April 26, 2024 by BlueOak

[Bobby_2021]

10 hours ago, BlueOak said:

This is more likely than ever. It is one way to guarantee he doesn't fight a 9th or 10th war to rebuild the USSR. Previously, it was impossible due to the occupation of Crimea and people not wanting a war with Russia.

"Ukraine could not join NATO because Crimea was invaded."

Now Russia still control Crimea, and an extra 20% of Ukraine which is steadily increasing more day by day,  destroyed it's military, so now the possibility Ukraine of joining NATO is higher than ever.

Yeah man that totally makes sense.

Edited April 26, 2024 by Bobby_2021

[Bobby_2021]

Thank God that people like Scott Ritter exist to tell you the true story.

 

 

[BlueOak]

2 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

"Ukraine could not join NATO because Crimea was invaded."

Now Russia still control Crimea, and an extra 20% of Ukraine which is steadily increasing more day by day,  destroyed it's military, so now the possibility Ukraine of joining NATO is higher than ever.

Yeah man that totally makes sense.

If Ukraine gives up its sovereignty over those territories, as you keep asking for, they will need to see something in return for it. Otherwise, you'll never have the peace you say you want to see.

From my perspective, Russia changed the conclusion for NATO after waging a war for more than two years, a campaign of terror against the civilian population in Ukraine. They threatened everyone in Europe with nukes every few weeks, committed food/energy blackmail, flooded refugees over the borders both through their aggressive actions and destabilizing countries, meddled in our elections, and committed cyberattacks and espionage.

Europe has changed. Its relationship with Russia is going to be different for many decades.

The fact that you don't like the conclusion doesn't mean it isn't logical:

In NATO: Russia doesn't invade Ukraine again, because they cannot win that war while America is guaranteeing Europe. (This calculation changes if Trump gets in power.)
Outside of NATO: Russia invade, which, after peace would be their 9th war in former USSR territory, then their 10th in Moldova. If Trump is in power, the 11th war has every chance of being in Estonia, for the many reasons I've listed and discussed. This is why all the efforts are being made to ensure the east of Europe is heavily defended.

Nobody here trusts Putin, and nobody here wants to go through this again. 

[Ajay0]

Brazil overtook Turkey in October 2023 to become the largest buyer of Russian oil with trade amounting to around 9 billion dollars. 

https://www.ft.com/content/7ebb679e-099e-49ac-a750-73ca46538dee

[Bobby_2021]

13 hours ago, BlueOak said:

Nobody here trusts Putin, and nobody here wants to go through this again.

Then maybe, it would be good idea to not encroach near it's borders and take their warnings seriously.

You are poking the bear and complaining that it fought back.

[enchanted]

Ukraine gave up it's nukes in exchange for protection. So we must protect Ukraine. It can be as simple as that.

It's not agreed on anywhere in writing that NATO won't expand. 

[Bobby_2021]

47 minutes ago, enchanted said:

So we must protect Ukraine

Ukraine won't even be recognizable by the end of the year. Thanks so much for the protection.

Their goal was to weaken Russia at the cost of poor Ukrainian lives. What were you even protecting? Your actions are turning Ukraine into a rump state.

51 minutes ago, enchanted said:

It's not agreed on anywhere in writing that NATO won't expand. 

Every action will have an equal and opposite reaction.

[Bobby_2021]

This sick American obsession with cashing in on wars has to stop. This is cowardly and weak.

Keep shilling more talking points for the military industrial complex. Even they admitted that their goal is to create more jobs in the US than provide real assistance for Ukraine.

Zero respect for Ukrainian lives. Zero.

 

[enchanted]

46 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Ukraine won't even be recognizable by the end of the year. Thanks so much for the protection.

Their goal was to weaken Russia at the cost of poor Ukrainian lives. What were you even protecting? Your actions are turning Ukraine into a rump state.

Every action will have an equal and opposite reaction.

You are acting like I am personally involved with this war and that the outcome of this conversation will determine the outcome of the war. 

You, and me are lonely bored dudes shouting into the void trying to feel important and who just desperately want to be heard.

It's all going to be ok. Love always wins. The winner of the war will be the side with relatively more love and not who @Bobby_2021 wants to win.

Edited April 27, 2024 by enchanted

[BlueOak]

3 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Then maybe, it would be good idea to not encroach near it's borders and take their warnings seriously.

You are poking the bear and complaining that it fought back.

1) Again, I understand your point of view is a single block vs another block. NATO isn't one block, as you like to call it; it's many countries. They join NATO because Russia causes fear as a way of governing and interacting with the world. NATO doesn't seek them out, they go to NATO because of Russia.

2) Putin has forever poked Europe, meddled in elections, and invaded West, that's their foreign policy and always has been. People join NATO to secure their own country, and if Ukraine had either kept their nukes or been in NATO none of this would have happened to them.

[BlueOak]

[Bobby_2021]

https://x.com/vtchakarova/status/1783962948123128226

Quote

European social democracies amassed huge welfare systems last 30 years because they relied on someone else for security (USA), someone else for manufacturing (China), and someone else for cheap commodities (Russia). 

What do you think will happen to this model without all of it?

I am all in for Europeans growing a pair of balls and rebuilding it's military to be able to defend itself instead of sucking upto US everytime it got into a mess. Honestly it's this unholy alliance with the US that gets it into trouble anyway.

Edited April 27, 2024 by Bobby_2021

[enchanted]

3 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

This sick American obsession with cashing in on wars has to stop. This is cowardly and weak.

Keep shilling more talking points for the military industrial complex. Even they admitted that their goal is to create more jobs in the US than provide real assistance for Ukraine.

Zero respect for Ukrainian lives. Zero.

 

CGTN is literally a Chinese run propaganda network. We are supposed to be doing consciousness politics here. You are clearly not a serious person. 

[Bobby_2021]

34 minutes ago, enchanted said:

CGTN is literally a Chinese run propaganda network. We are supposed to be doing consciousness politics here. You are clearly not a serious person. 

Chinese propagandists are looking for love.  

Spread some love. It's all love in the end.

♥️

[enchanted]

8 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Chinese propagandists are looking for love.  

Spread some love. It's all love in the end.

♥️

Now you are getting it. The only smart thing you have said so far. 

[Karmadhi]

On 27/04/2024 at 3:13 PM, BlueOak said:

They join NATO because Russia causes fear as a way of governing and interacting with the world. NATO doesn't seek them out, they go to NATO because of Russia

Goes both ways. NATO also provokes. Unfortunately Russian and especially Soviet occupation and influence were so disastrous historically, that is has left these countries traumatized and downright Russian phobic. Hence they see all Russia does as bad. I know because my country used to be a Soviet puppet (but it broke down much much earlier than 1991)

 

2. Regarding your second point, I saw that Russia in the 1990s opened up the West and had horrible consequences. Their economy went to total shit. Only after Putin did things start to improve. So probably Putin viewed that as a mistake and that Russia has to do its own thing. Also he tried to join NATO and NATO did not take that well. So to me Putin seems like that guy that tried to join the cool people s group, was shunned down and now is a bit bitter and wants to make his own cool kids group

 

Edited April 29, 2024 by Karmadhi

[BlueOak]

@Karmadhi

Yes. Almost all modern wars people complained about in the 80s-90s were America pushing the power vacuum left by Russia, against its allies, or supported regimes. Now obviously, the power dynamic is going the opposite way, because all countries do it, Russia, China, and Iran, BRICS in general are testing America and Europe. If Europe wakes up and does the same, which is slowly happening, Russia is toast comparatively. If Ukraine falls that would be more likely to happen - which is why I am such a strong supporter of holding Russia exactly where they are. It's a status quo, nobody likes it but it's an outcome with a degree of certainty.

All governments are right-wing, all operate on the principle of taking what they can get from their neighbors. They create the identity of the enemy and attack it. Zero-sum thinking.

 

Edited April 30, 2024 by BlueOak