Should we still be backing Ukraine?

[Danioover9000]

@Husseinisdoingfine

7 hours ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

On the Spiral Dynamics integral, what color is Ukraine? What about Russia?

   Ukraine is fake rainbow colours from America democracy/individualism/liberty, while Russia is solid red/blue hues motherland.

[Bobby_2021]

8 hours ago, BlueOak said:

Right at the start, Ukraine offered neutrality to Russia, but they refused it.

There was no written agreement.

And the offer for neutrality is under the pretext that US give security to Ukraine in form of weapons and aid. But buying such weapons and aid is the way unit getting into NATO.

Putin isn't going to be fooled by this.

We all know how much they will honour the "talks" as we have seen in the past lmao.

You know very well that Ukraine's opinion doesn't matter just like Europe. 

US and Russia are the player in the game.

5 hours ago, Chadders said:

If anything Russia’s aggression has united NATO countries. The NATO alliance has never been stronger.

If Trump comes of office, then he could pull US out of NATO. There is no one who is more critical of NATO than Trump. That would be the end of NATO as we know it.

NATO itself is founded on the incestuous relationship of providing security to Europe in return for Europe giving away their foreign policy to US. There are too many structural issues within the alliance. 

Russia is a military style economy and has been for a while. Europe is a chill man's economy. They are not made for war time scenario.

2 years of war and they will quit. 

In contrast to the average Russian man who has a sense of national patriotic duty to mother Russia.

[Bobby_2021]

Watch these videos if you are stuck in western propaganda. Come down to the ground reality.

Brilliant Discussion from Seven Dagdelen:

 

 

Blocked Peace deals:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/09/us/politics/biden-putin-tucker-carlson-peace.html?smid=url-share

 

 

Edited April 24 by Bobby_2021

[Karmadhi]

@BlueOak I saw that when Russians did a massacre in Bucha (killing around 100 to 200 people) it got worldwide condemnation and the West was super angry and sad about it.

I also saw some days ago in Gaza they found a mass graves consisting of hundreds of Palestininas, many had their hands tied meaning they were excecuted. How come no condemnation and Bucha treatment?

Similar acts, similar death toll, one nobody hears about in terms of condemnation and the other the whole West says is horrible.

Why?

You seem pro Western so how can you explain this to me?

 

[Karmadhi]

@Bobby_2021 John Mearsheimer is a breath of fresh air. Very smart guy that predicted this war 10 years ago

[Bobby_2021]

16 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

@Bobby_2021 John Mearsheimer is a breath of fresh air. Very smart guy that predicted this war 10 years ago

Yup.

The more I dig into this, the more depressing it gets. There is solution in sight and everything can go wrong at any point.

What a time to be alive.

[BlueOak]

12 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

There was no written agreement.

And the offer for neutrality is under the pretext that US give security to Ukraine in form of weapons and aid. But buying such weapons and aid is the way unit getting into NATO.

Putin isn't going to be fooled by this.

We all know how much they will honour the "talks" as we have seen in the past lmao.

You know very well that Ukraine's opinion doesn't matter just like Europe. 

US and Russia are the player in the game.

If Trump comes of office, then he could pull US out of NATO. There is no one who is more critical of NATO than Trump. That would be the end of NATO as we know it.

NATO itself is founded on the incestuous relationship of providing security to Europe in return for Europe giving away their foreign policy to US. There are too many structural issues within the alliance. 

Russia is a military style economy and has been for a while. Europe is a chill man's economy. They are not made for war time scenario.

2 years of war and they will quit. 

In contrast to the average Russian man who has a sense of national patriotic duty to mother Russia.

@Bobby_2021
Offers were made to Russia of Ukrainian neutrality at the very start. Russia refused them. This is a fact, you can say it wasn't worded with flowers and bells on, or you don't trust the West. Guess what? We don't trust Putin and BRICS either. It has been a decade of BRICS lies, espionage, threats, and meddling in elections. (Hundreds of years for the East of Europe).

Ukraine already couldn't enter NATO while Russia occupied Crimea, and several member states pre-war didn't want them, that is also a fact.

Russia created militias in the Donbas, then flooded them with manpower, and weapons to cause problems in the regions. Like they've done in Moldova, like they are trying to do with immigrants in Europe and people fear happening in Estonia. These are facts. Nobody disputes that those militias were funded and armed by Russia, that's why they are now in the Russian army.

Again, you keep pushing and belittling Europe. Again, you haven't learned from watching people do that to Russia. Again, you dismiss the region and so miss the entire war itself. You ignore that the US didn't want to send aid and that Europe is rearming. You call for something that can't be accepted because you are not even looking at where it is going on.

How is India? Is the CCP governing you well? 
What's that? China isn't running your country, oh. They are the major economy in BRICS, and are the major military power, dwarfing Russia and India's capabilities. In your analogy, Russia and India don't exist either, only China and America.

Now have a million people repeat that propaganda to your country that it has no say in international affairs, like they did to Russia. Then we get the reaction that's happening. Again, when Europe uses that military, you'll fall over to criticize them, but when it's your ally, it's fine—utter hypocrisy.
 

40 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

@BlueOak I saw that when Russians did a massacre in Bucha (killing around 100 to 200 people) it got worldwide condemnation and the West was super angry and sad about it.

I also saw some days ago in Gaza they found a mass graves consisting of hundreds of Palestininas, many had their hands tied meaning they were excecuted. How come no condemnation and Bucha treatment?

Similar acts, similar death toll, one nobody hears about in terms of condemnation and the other the whole West says is horrible.

Why?

You seem pro Western so how can you explain this to me?

 

@Karmadhi
War is hell, and the people who want it and use it to further their ends are deeply rooted in fear or a form of psychosis. They inflict generational trauma that we all have to live with and reincarnate into. Apply that to everything you just said, and you can understand why I criticize Iran, Israel,  China, America, my own UK government, and Russia. It doesn't help, because morality is useless in survival scenarios, even explaining the cycle or fallout from the international order is useless. People are in fear and are more reactionary than I've ever seen them. They are hell-bent on ripping the international order down, then give me a surprised face at the consequences. 

15 years ago, I predicted all these wars, when the entire world started to shift to the far right, and nobody wanted to hear it. Still, nobody wants to hear it. All the far-right government of each country wants to do is find an enemy and call them the bad guys, that's the logic they operate on. They require an enemy to sustain their far-right ideologies, and their leaders use war and violence to stay in power. - This is the macro reason for all these wars, alongside money and ego.

As more of Europe's far-right realize they can make BRICS and Russia out to be their opponent, gaining political capital, things will get worse. As Russia does to Europe to maintain power, and BRICS do to America generally to gain political capital. That's all that's needed for a wider war. - It will be hastened by people calling them weak.

Edited April 24 by BlueOak

[Chadders]

@Karmadhi What is going on in Gaza is terrible. It’s genocide or at least ethnic cleansing. The west’s position to generally stand by Isreal no matter what really does put us to shame and goes in complete contrast to our civic values. Germany has their bollocks in a twist over the issue because of the holocaust so can’t be seen to criticise Isreal. Ultimately a lot of the support from the west for Isreal is because of this outdated moral obligation. Isreal can stand on its own two feet and should be judged like any other nation. It’s wrong that we give them special treatment 

Saying this neither the atrocities committed by Russia or Isreal invalidates one or the other. They are both equally barbaric. It’s just Ukraine has some means to defend itself. It’s not a competition 

[Raze]

 

Edited April 24 by Raze

[Bobby_2021]

This is delusional. The battalion of troops deployed into Ukraine are going to dead in no time. There are taking up more they can chew.

Remember the pattern in history that big empires have all collapsed by taking on wars they could not handle. European countries are playing a dangerous game, because of the delusional propaganda shoved up their ass. EU and NATO is about to collapse if they move forward with this.

Dear Americans, this is why you do not have free college or free health care. Keep sending billions more to Ukraine.

Edited April 25 by Bobby_2021

[Karmadhi]

17 hours ago, BlueOak said:

War is hell, and the people who want it and use it to further their ends are deeply rooted in fear or a form of psychosis. They inflict generational trauma that we all have to live with and reincarnate into. Apply that to everything you just said, and you can understand why I criticize Iran, Israel,  China, America, my own UK government, and Russia. It doesn't help, because morality is useless in survival scenarios, even explaining the cycle or fallout from the international order is useless. People are in fear and are more reactionary than I've ever seen them. They are hell-bent on ripping the international order down, then give me a surprised face at the consequences. 

15 years ago, I predicted all these wars, when the entire world started to shift to the far right, and nobody wanted to hear it. Still, nobody wants to hear it. All the far-right government of each country wants to do is find an enemy and call them the bad guys, that's the logic they operate on. They require an enemy to sustain their far-right ideologies, and their leaders use war and violence to stay in power. - This is the macro reason for all these wars, alongside money and ego.

As more of Europe's far-right realize they can make BRICS and Russia out to be their opponent, gaining political capital, things will get worse. As Russia does to Europe to maintain power, and BRICS do to America generally to gain political capital. That's all that's needed for a wider war. - It will be hastened by people calling them weak.

I am talking about the hypocrisy of not calling out war crimes when specific countries do it. Not about BRICS or anything like that.

Countless Western governments are not right governments and still they do not call out Israel's crimes.

USA, Netherlands, Germany, France being prime examples. Right now none of these countries have right wing governments yet they did what I wrote above.

So I will repeat my question: Why the mass graves and massacres committed by Israel against Palestinians are not condemned by the non right wing Western governments (France, Germany, USA, Netherlands) like the massacres committed by Russians against Ukrainians.

[BlueOak]

6 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I am talking about the hypocrisy of not calling out war crimes when specific countries do it. Not about BRICS or anything like that.

Countless Western governments are not right governments and still they do not call out Israel's crimes.

USA, Netherlands, Germany, France being prime examples. Right now none of these countries have right wing governments yet they did what I wrote above.

So I will repeat my question: Why the mass graves and massacres committed by Israel against Palestinians are not condemned by the non right wing Western governments (France, Germany, USA, Netherlands) like the massacres committed by Russians against Ukrainians.

I will repeat my answer in a shorter form: Right-wing governments require an opponent, they require an enemy. They need to think of themselves as heroes. They cannot accept or process the opposite of this because it breaks their worldview, and their ability to remain in power. 

All the countries you just named have right-wing governments:

Germany: https://www.politicalcompass.org/germany2021
USA: https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2020
France: https://www.politicalcompass.org/france2022
Netherlands, You'll have to settle for articles here: Example 1 | Example 2

You'll struggle to name a country that doesn't have a far-right government. People don't even realize it. 

*Thank you for getting closer to the point though. It's much better than these people are bad, these people are good. That's just the same old cycle of uselessness. 

Edited April 25 by BlueOak

[Something Funny]

5 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I am talking about the hypocrisy of not calling out war crimes when specific countries do it. Not about BRICS or anything like that.

Countless Western governments are not right governments and still they do not call out Israel's crimes.

USA, Netherlands, Germany, France being prime examples. Right now none of these countries have right wing governments yet they did what I wrote above.

So I will repeat my question: Why the mass graves and massacres committed by Israel against Palestinians are not condemned by the non right wing Western governments (France, Germany, USA, Netherlands) like the massacres committed by Russians against Ukrainians.

What do you want to hear? Everyone is a hypocrite and the world is a shitshow.

[Bobby_2021]

Sometimes I forget to comprehend how many people in the west are fooled by the cartoonish image of Putin. Seriously out of touch with reality.

God save them from trouble.

 

[Karmadhi]

3 hours ago, BlueOak said:

will repeat my answer in a shorter form: Right-wing governments require an opponent, they require an enemy. They need to think of themselves as heroes. They cannot accept or process the opposite of this because it breaks their worldview, and their ability to remain in power. 

All the countries you just named have right-wing governments:

Joe Biden, Macron and Schultz are right wing? Ok got it. Because they are the genocide supporters I see here.

 

[Karmadhi]

@Bobby_2021 Is this guy to be trusted? He seems like a more extreme Mearsheimer to me. I really like Mearsheimer but this guy could not even name 1 bad thing to say about Putin. Seems a bit biased to me.

But I do trust him when he says US is to be blamed for this too.

They clearly care more about hurting Russia than helping Ukraine.

 

[Karmadhi]

21 hours ago, Chadders said:

What is going on in Gaza is terrible. It’s genocide or at least ethnic cleansing. The west’s position to generally stand by Isreal no matter what really does put us to shame and goes in complete contrast to our civic values. Germany has their bollocks in a twist over the issue because of the holocaust so can’t be seen to criticise Isreal. Ultimately a lot of the support from the west for Isreal is because of this outdated moral obligation. Isreal can stand on its own two feet and should be judged like any other nation. It’s wrong that we give them special treatment 

Saying this neither the atrocities committed by Russia or Isreal invalidates one or the other. They are both equally barbaric. It’s just Ukraine has some means to defend itself. It’s not a competition 

Totally agree with you.

 

[BlueOak]

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Joe Biden, Macron and Schultz are right wing? Ok got it. Because they are the genocide supporters I see here.

 

Correct.

*With the stipulation, it's an ethnic cleansing. Which isn't much better for anyone involved, but if you are quoting me I need to be specific. Ditto Russia in the east of Ukraine. Ditto China in Tibet, I was going to post East Turkistan too but that's a genocide.

Edited April 25 by BlueOak

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

Correct.

*With the stipulation, it's an ethnic cleansing. Which isn't much better for anyone involved, but if you are quoting me I need to be specific. Ditto Russia in the east of Ukraine. Ditto China in Tibet, I was going to post East Turkistan too but that's a genocid

Gaza is close to 15.000 kids. I did not see such numbers anywhere else. So number wise and proportion wise it is much worse. The only war that comes close recent times is Syrian war and especially the Chechen war (in terms of proportions).

It is not just ethnic cleansing in Gaza. Close to 2% of the ENTIRE population of Gaza has died.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Turkmen_genocide#:~:text=The Iraqi Turkmen genocide refers,of their land in Iraq.

It is genocide this one in Turkemnistan. Did not know. Thanks for sharing.

Also time matters, Gaza is 6 months. The other conflicts are years long.

Ukraine is 2 plus years, Turkmenistan happened in 3 years and Tibet has been going on for decades. So time lenght matters do.

I think Ukraine and Tibet are indeed ethnic cleansings. But Gaza to me is now more on genocide than ethnic cleansing. Especially with the man made famine happening. Same for Rohinyga (indeed genocide).

Note: I am not discounting that all these conflicts were horrible and should stop. But they are in different leagues of brutality and overall carnage, that is all I meant.

Edited April 25 by Karmadhi

[Bobby_2021]

7 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

@Bobby_2021 Is this guy to be trusted? He seems like a more extreme Mearsheimer to me. I really like Mearsheimer but this guy could not even name 1 bad thing to say about Putin. Seems a bit biased to me.

But I do trust him when he says US is to be blamed for this too.

They clearly care more about hurting Russia than helping Ukraine.

Piers want that professor to join him in his immature name calling exercise so that he can affirm his cartoonish worldview that Putin is an evil fascist dictator. 

That's what piers is expecting from him and he didn't submit to this childishness. Because why would you do peace deals with an unreasonable dictator.

Westers leaders want to keep up this uninformed narrative so that they can block peace deals, like they did many times and use the people of Ukraine can fodder for Putin's meat grinder machine. This is sadistic and purposeless.

This is the same vibes as "I don't negotiate with terrorists" because they are terrorists, because I branded them terrorists.

What matters now is to get Ukraine and the NATO into a collective settlement as soon as possible. The more you wait the more power goes to Putin.