The importance of Suffering

[Breakingthewall]

For you, the Germans

 

[UnbornTao]

@Water by the River

It isn't an ideal.

Grasping what you are doesn't necessarily transform your self or your experience. Transcending suffering is not the same as getting enlightened, as the former relates to relative existence.

For example, Nissargadatta, being enlightened, was addicted to tobacco, and there was emotional pain behind this drive.

Edited March 14 by UnbornTao

[James123]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

@Water by the River It isn't an ideal.

You know your nature, and that doesn't change you self per se. The work of transcending suffering is different from getting what you are, as it relates to relative existence.

For example, I can tell you that, while enlightened, Nissargadatta was addicted to tobacco, and there was pain and suffering behind this drive.

İf you are not in love after enlightenment, that's ain't complete enlightenment or surrendering. Because after you realize what you really are, self drops and realization happens that all there is just love. You are in love, i am in love, everyone is in love. 

İ love you guys, i love you. 

[Water by the River]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

@Water by the River It isn't an ideal.

You know your nature, and that doesn't change you self per se. T

he work of transcending suffering is different from getting what you are, as it relates to relative existence.

For example, I can tell you that, while enlightened, Nissargadatta was addicted to tobacco, and there was pain and suffering behind this drive.

Nobody claimed that enlightened beings don't continue in their habits/addictions, or shadows, or in some cases behave in questionable way. After Enlightenment, most beings continue with the habits they had before. Some don't give a damn about their bodily vehicle afterwards, depending on the culture/mind-set (see Ramana at the beginning). And yet, the most beautiful expression of Enlightenment is in an integral and compassionate expression, and that is what tends to happen mostly.

I would recommend you to look up how Nisargadatta, the 16th Karmapa, or Ramana died of cancer. Sure there was bodily pain, incredible amounts of it especially in the case of Nisargadatta (throat cancer). And how they endured that ordeal without resistance or closing down their openness.

But what they have in common is that the function of "resistance to what is/closing down because of the circumstances/ contracting/ or in other words psychological suffering" which are just other terms for self-contraction/separate-self, has been pretty much switched off transcended in drastic remarkable ways. The suffering that is meant is not freedom from feeling bodily pain, but not closing down and suffering/resisting that.

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

The work of transcending suffering is different from getting what you are, as it relates to relative existence.

I would recommend you to experience the presence of some enlightened beings, experience their being, state and radiance, and then make up your own mind. 

And the best option to truly find out if the claims hold: Set out on the path yourself, experience and realize what is being pointed to, and then you will know it for yourself why it is called Sat-Chit-Ananda. A cynical attitude on the outcome of the path is not exactly helpful for reaching the goal.

Selling Water by the River

[gettoefl]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

@Water by the River It isn't an ideal.

You know your nature, and that doesn't change you self per se. The work of transcending suffering is different from getting what you are, as it relates to relative existence.

For example, I can tell you that, while enlightened, Nissargadatta was addicted to tobacco, and there was pain and suffering behind this drive.

pain is to come and speak of pain, pain for one is not pain for another, pain is to make aches real, it isn't real even if it may do something to a body, for sure one has to let go of a body, this needn't mean pain

to heal by contrast is h-elps e-nfeebled a-ccess l-ight so they know their true nature and won't be bothered by a body any longer

NM mentioned no pain and Ramesh Balsekar was with him until the last day

[Schizophonia]

On 29/02/2024 at 8:23 AM, puporing said:

No shit.. I don't really tell anyone about how much suffering I went through and it cannot be expressed accurately either with words. I went through a lot of hell and countless heartbreaks in this lifetime.

Me too, i obviously sympathize..

The real questions now is why the avatar who precise having suffered a lot is also the one in whom I recognize my « messia / saviour syndrome » and in general my tendancy to insist to present  myself in a « masculine » way.

mhh 

 

[Schizophonia]

@Yimpa @puporing Why do you associate lightness with women and heaviness with men ?

I will never believe this gender story, because, even if I am surely wrong (I hope), I see it more and more as a severe inability to project certain energies into matter effectively. Btw I know several transgender people and they are all traumatized by their own admission, there is something fishy going on all the time. I swear I don't do any cherry picking.
 

 

Edited March 14 by Schizophonia

[BipolarGrowth]

On 3/10/2024 at 6:30 PM, UnbornTao said:

@Water by the River Enlightenment and transcending suffering are different pursuits.

Trying to dissolve suffering is still a form of suffering.

Edit: The whole point of this post was to show that trying to dissolve suffering is not the way suffering actually is transcended. It is far more about equanimity rather than aversion to suffering. Aversion to suffering is not what brings any success in a reduction of suffering. Aversion = suffering. Resistance = suffering. I’d never quote this as some amazing quote on the description of awakening.
 

From jan_kasimi on Reddit: 

“The point is not to be fully free of dukkha, it's to be free of trying to be free of dukkha. As long as one is trying to be free, there is still the conception of a self which in turn causes dukkha.

For non-liberated beings, trying to avoid dukkha is what drives their actions. Liberated beings have no goals of their own because they (realize they) don't exist separate from the world.

Kennet Folk writes about his final realization:

One day, walking under a pepper tree in the desert, I gave myself permission to be enlightened. I had been practicing obsessively for twenty-two years, including a cumulative three years on intensive retreat. I thought of myself as a professional yogi. On this day in New Mexico, reflecting on the question “have I suffered enough?” I gave myself permission to be done. I was acutely aware of everything around me — the sights and sounds of the desert, the feeling of heat on my skin, the warm breeze on my face, the pulsing in my veins. It suddenly occurred to me that I was done. [...]

I felt like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, clicking her heels three times, and then waking up to find that she’d been home in her own bed the whole time, safe and sound. I called my mother the next day and told her what had happened. “I think I’ve just wasted twenty-two years of my life. The ride is over and nothing much has changed. But I have never been happier. There is peace.”

The essential realization that comes from this process is that there isn’t anyone here to get enlightened. You work tirelessly for years to get enlightened, only to find out that you couldn’t possibly get enlightened, because there isn’t anybody here for it to happen to. Contemplative development, in its purest sense, is learning to see yourself as process.”

Edited March 15 by BipolarGrowth

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

I felt like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, clicking her heels three times, and then waking up to find that she’d been home in her own bed the whole time, safe and sound. I called my mother the next day and told her what had happened. “I think I’ve just wasted twenty-two years of my life. The ride is over and nothing much has changed. But I have never been happier. There is peace.”

The essential realization that comes from this process is that there isn’t anyone here to get enlightened. You work tirelessly for years to get enlightened, only to find out that you couldn’t possibly get enlightened, because there isn’t anybody here for it to happen to. Contemplative development, in its purest sense, is learning to see yourself as process.”

Lol. This isn't Awakening. It's just a Buddhist bullshitting himself. He did waste 22 years of his life on Buddhist bullshit. And so will you if you're not careful.

Edited March 14 by Leo Gura

[BipolarGrowth]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Lol. This isn't Awakening. It's just a Buddhist bullshitting himself. He did waste 22 years of his life on Buddhist bullshit. And so will you if you're not careful.

What do you suggest I do instead? Am I not the sort of person that you’d have in mind while giving disclaimers against psychedelic use? 
 

I know full well that you wouldn’t consider these people Awake. 

[Razard86]

On 3/10/2024 at 5:39 AM, Leo Gura said:

True Being will not help you when a crocodile from the river snatches you by the skull.

You would be surprised. Let's just say I tested this, and nobody dies before their time. Life is not just some simple human gets eaten by crocodile ordeal. It's a lot more intricate than that. I post NDE's for a reason on here. I also like I said have personally tested this...and True Being is not just some passive observer with no intervention.

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

What do you suggest I do instead? Am I not the sort of person that you’d have in mind while giving disclaimers against psychedelic use? 

I know full well that you wouldn’t consider these people Awake. 

I wasn't speaking to you. I was speaking to people in general and the situation of that guy.

You guys sometimes wonder why I am such a prick when it comes to this Awakening stuff. Well, that example you cited is the perfect illustration of what I am trying to save people from.

Edited March 14 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Razard86 said:

You would be surprised. Let's just say I tested this, and nobody dies before their time. Life is not just some simple human gets eaten by crocodile ordeal. It's a lot more intricate than that. I post NDE's for a reason on here. I also like I said have personally tested this...and True Being is not just some passive observer with no intervention.

When I say crocodile snatches your skull, that is a metaphor for all manner of disaster that will befall you in life. Not a literal crocodile. Unless you are a Floridian.

[LSD-Rumi]

@Leo Gura I figured out the Buddhist\ New age simplistic and flawed definition of Enlightenment. They mistake it for the slight increase in consciousness when you focus on the moment and mere existence and see that everything around you is made out of consciousness\nothingness. Then they say "You are already enlightened!!! there is nothing to do, etc...".Of course, What they describe is a high level of mindfulness. What they dismiss is that there are much higher levels of consciousness\ insights.

Edited March 15 by LSD-Rumi

[Yimpa]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

When I say crocodile snatches your skull, that is a metaphor for all manner of disaster that will befall you in life. Not a literal crocodile. Unless you are a Floridian.

Right…

 

[BlessedLion]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Lol. This isn't Awakening. It's just a Buddhist bullshitting himself. He did waste 22 years of his life on Buddhist bullshit. And so will you if you're not careful.

Sounds like he reached a solid state of peace and contentment and enlightenment 

[Breakingthewall]

37 minutes ago, BlessedLion said:

Sounds like he reached a solid state of peace and contentment and enlightenment 

It seems that he has achieved some kind of surrender, absence of desire, acceptance, which sure will be positive for his life, but which is not the dissolution of the barriers of the self and the opening to the total limitless existence.

I would say that he does not contemplate that possibility, but rather he has an idea of enlightenment based on the acceptance of what is. It is normal if he  has not considered the psychedelic path, because he couldn't see that dimensions. Maybe for some that is not necessary, but for the majority it is necessary to give a deep dimension to the psyche and from there carry out the action of opening, of total breaking of the limits

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, BlessedLion said:

Sounds like he reached a solid state of peace and contentment and enlightenment 

but the guy is right about one thing, it is essential at a given moment to let go of control, control is a limiting factor, total abandonment has to be possible during certain moments, maybe it is possible to live like this all the time, but at least circumstantially It is a necessary step, although it is not equivalent to openness.

I suppose it would be possible to live like this permanently full time, the true enlightened ones, but for a person who works and has to maintain a let's say normal life, it is very difficult imo

Edited March 14 by Breakingthewall

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, BlessedLion said:

Sounds like he reached a solid state of peace and contentment and enlightenment 

No, he just surrendered his useless pursuits, which of course brings contentment in the same way that if you stop cutting yourself you will gain contentment. But this has nothing to do with being highly conscious. Surrendering a pursuit does not increase your consciousness. Surrender and letting go are good things, but they should not be confused with high consciousness.

And his contentment will only be temporary. Until something awful happens to him, or even less.

Edited March 14 by Leo Gura

[puporing]

On 3/13/2024 at 11:41 PM, Schizophonia said:

The real questions now is why the avatar who precise having suffered a lot is also the one in whom I recognize my « messia / saviour syndrome » and in general my tendancy to insist to present  myself in a « masculine » way.

It's just the way it is, means you're close to being a Saint probably. A Saint suffers and almost compulsively tries to protect the vulnerable.

23 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

@Yimpa @puporing Why do you associate lightness with women and heaviness with men ?

I will never believe this gender story, because, even if I am surely wrong (I hope), I see it more and more as a severe inability to project certain energies into matter effectively. Btw I know several transgender people and they are all traumatized by their own admission, there is something fishy going on all the time. I swear I don't do any cherry picking.
 

 

I'm not understanding very well what you were asking here. You are both the masculine and feminine. That's why I don't really care if people call me he or she or they.. it's just that "he" usually implies you could have both fem/masculine traits whereas when someone calls you a "she" it tends to box you in that one aspect.

Edited March 15 by puporing