The importance of Suffering

[Breakingthewall]

@Water by the River

3 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

 

According to your publication about enlightenment, it seems that for you, you are god imagining reality, the past, the human avatar...how would you nuance this? Because this is very close to solipsism 

[Someone here]

@Breakingthewall to avoid not being able to delete previous posts from a new reply ..just post the same post which you cant delete and then hide the post . After that post your new post in a clean slate. 

[Breakingthewall]

5 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Breakingthewall to avoid not being able to delete previous posts from a new reply ..just post the same post which you cant delete and then hide the post . After that post your new post in a clean slate. 

Sometimes it appears the same again and again 

[Soul Flight]

Suffering is the big blessing. Hindsight is 20/20. You don’t know what you got till it’s gone.

So maybe we should be envious of those who get the worst suffering in this world. Famine, genocide, concentration camps, torture, etc. The rich and powerful are self deluded.

The meek shall inherit the Earth.

[Razard86]

5 hours ago, puporing said:

I did, I was already ahead of you back then when we talked, but you weren't ready for that possibility so it didn't go anywhere. Right now where you're at I would say was roughly where I was at when I talked to you that time. There's not much point arguing about this though and I prefer not to get into it but just to say you didn't really understand where I was, and now is also a similar situation..

Why is it that when Leo tells you he's ahead you're all for it or okay with him saying that but when I say it you are subtly suggesting I am coming from ego? It's really not from ego. How else am I gonna share it if I don't try to tell you there's more awakening? If I try to be extremely quiet about it then it'll just get buried. 

But yes I know ultimately you will arrive to the same place. But someone has to point you to it. In this case it happens to be "my turn". No problem. It could've been you too I guess.

New material is christ teachings, I shared it with you before I think. 

Leo releases videos and blog posts that explains his spiritual progress. You have not done a sufficient job of explaining yourself thus you cannot be understood. Until you communicate in a manner that people can understand then you will be misunderstood.

[Water by the River]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

According to your publication about enlightenment, it seems that for you, you are god imagining reality, the past, the human avatar...how would you nuance this? Because this is very close to solipsism 

On an Absolute Level, "it" or better True You is solipsistic. Alone and infinite. True You/Infinite Being is "alone" because "it" is infinite with nothing possibly outside of it. But that is True You/True Being.

And someone who is not enlightened doesn't (by definition) know the difference between the current identity and True Being, or else he/she would be enlightened and no longer be asking these questions...

So talking about Solipsism and God is just counterproductive when talking with beings who have not realized their True Nature. Because they will project their ego on the concept of God or Solipsism, no other chance. First become Nothing (no separate-self), then you will be everything (Infinite Being) - Thisdell stage 4, becoming Thisdell stage 5/Enlightenment. But better not project a little separate something (illusion-separate-self) on everything (Roger Thisdell stage 3 "Godmind"). Or: I am God imagining everything. That makes Thisdell stage 3 a cul-de-sac, no way forward to stabilize Awakening in daily life and ease the suffering. Which is exactly what we see here, with a few added ETs.

Is Infinite Being not enough? Does it need to be called God? 

As I have written several times, I don't really like the pointer God, because it is normally loaded with other meaning on top.

• God = omnipresent, infinite, timeless/eternal/immortal, creating/manifesting/imagining the whole gig: Same for True Infinite Being. One without a second.
• But all the stuff projected on top of it when using the pointer God instead of Infinite Being, the one without a second, is often not for the faint of hearted. It anthropomorphizes Infinite True Being/Reality with properties and intentions that are just not there on the most fundamental level, and then proejcts it on the illusion-ego/illusion separate-self.

"I am God".

• Only very few can truthfully say that, because most have not realized their True Being and can't tell the difference to ego/separate-self.
• And those who can say that truthfully and not fall for the illusion normally don't talk like that, because they know from their own practice it is not beneficial for beings with the ego/separate-self illusion not fully seen through.

As soon as one talks like that to not enlightened beings, they almost always project the properties of True Being (or God) on themselves, their separate-identity, which they still have not seen through. Because else they would be enlightened.

And these separate-self-identities-arisings/illusions are that which have to be cut down/transcended for Enlightenment to happen. And using the grandiose word "God" tends to blow these illusion-arising up to cosmic proportions: "I" imagine everything. No. "Your" True Being does. But what is that? What is the constant always here True Being? Here also in Deep Sleep? Before ones birth?

And if one would fully know the difference between True Being and separate-self/ego, one wouldn't talk about these topics using pointers/concepts like God/Solipsism, because it would be all clear anyway... And one wouldn't need to state I am God and I imagine everything, because.... well...  TO WHOM? Well, I guess you get the point. At the level of Infinite Being one is alone. But there is no one there to feel alone, because that would be an anthropomorphic illusion arising of a separate-self WITHIN True Being. It just is what it is. And always has been.

And with an enlightened being talking like that it is not necessary. Makes no sense. One sees and knows the Awakened Nondual enlightened State the "other" is in (and nobody really home), and it is clear. Imagine a discussion like: I am God! No, I am God! No, you are not! We are God! That is all illusion, starting with the words "I" and "we".

Lot of talk of God and Solipsism happens on Thisdells stage 3 "God-stage, God-mind". Infinite Nonduality with separate-self/remaining identity/ego not fully seen through".

• It is contradictory, not stable, with lots of illusions still going on.
• And that is presupposing its done from real nondual states. Most of the time, its done from not nondual states, just from the conceptual level. And from there, it is more insanity than anything else. The discussion then goes like: "No, small you is not God. Big You, True Being, is. But first find out what that is before talking about God & Solipsism".
• And because of all these contradictions that doing that move includes, there is so much discussion here about these topics. Because it is not clear, but contradictory.

Sometimes I use the pointer God, but normally it is not a good pointing/teaching tool.

 

Ever noticed that very few enlightened teachers that are public talk about how they are God and imagining everything, and they are all alone and Solipsism and so on?  They do, if you listen between the lines or read/see enough stuff. Sometimes even explictily. Sometimes, even complete books like the Supreme Source have been written, that even got the approval by our host as God Realization.

And these enlightened teachers normally don't talk about them being God/Solipsism. Not because they are too stupid to know what God is, and what Solipsism/Aloneness on the Absolute Level means. And they do know that all is an imagined illusion happening within "their" own Infinite Being/True Being by definition.  If they wouldn't, they wouldn't be enlightened. 

But they don't throw that in public at a poor ego to blow it up to cosmic proportions, because that doesn't help their students going from Thisdell stage 3 to 4 to 5. It usually even prevents getting the ego stage 1 to witness stage 2 to nondual stage 3. Because to get there sobre and without psychedelics, one already has to kill/transcend the ego/separate-self quite a lot... Nothing kills sobre Awakened Nonduality better than saying to oneself: I AM GOD. A "normal" identification of I am a human so and so suffices to do that...

And one more thing: If Nonduality (or Buddhism) gets bashed: Nonduality is NOT automatically Enlightenment, or realization of True Infinite Being/Reality. It is Thisdells stage 3 Godmind. A boundless nondual infinite field of Awareness, with a separate-self still well and alive hijacking that! And that most Buddhist are not enlightened should go without saying..

Stage 3 Godmind. That is where one gets with psychedelics. And maybe even stage 4 a bit. But I have never seen a mainly psychedelic aficionado get to stage 5, True No Self (also nondual, but without center/separate-self-illusion, truly being the Infinite Totality/Being). Stable Nondual realization of Infinite Being in daily life. Maybe somebody knows one, would be very interested. Can't rule out that one exists, or that one wakes up just by the impulse of a psychedelic. It is just, I have never seen one. I know quite a lot that have done that with transcending/meditation of the false illusion separate self.

So basically "Nonduality" and "Buddhism" gets bashed, because one doesn't know that stage 3 "Godmind"/Nonduality is not yet True Being or Enlightenment. Of course merely Nondual Realisation doesn't bring "God-Realization", or understanding that True Being imagines/manifests all of it, and that ones True Self is that. That is stage 5, or the link (Supreme Source) above. Or True Enlightenment.

Psychedelics get one to Nonduality, maybe in more sophisticated cases to realizing that it is all imagined/manifested to fool "oneself". But it doesn't get oneself conforming to the impersonal infinite nondual enlightened mindstream. And that is why this "realization" is not stable in daily life. Still suffering/resisting the content of ones own True Infinite Being. "Solution": add a few ETs from higher levels of Reality, and call that higher than realizing and being ones True Infinite Being. And be proud on ones own continuing suffering/resistance towards happens within ones True Infinite Nondual Being, and declare that as inevitable. Or something like that.

Well, quite a show Maya is dishing "us" up this time, isn't it 

Selling God&Solipsism Water by the River

 

The Koan still is: What is the True Being of the ET at the end, really? And that of any other ET, n+1?

 

Edited February 29 by Water by the River

[Breakingthewall]

@Water by the River

I perceive some....how to say ... limitation. Let's see, i have let the self fall into the void absolutely and totally many times and the infinite has been obvious. There is no "alone" or "only" because everything is in infinity and there is no center, it is not me, the self is like an illusion created by perception, but the thing is that there is perception so there is self, reality it is an ocean that has no limit and that turns any "something" into nothing, since it is everything, including the self. This is not one, it is not unity, and above all and most importantly: there is no creation, nothing can be created, I am not God imagining anything, imagining is a process of creation and there can be no creation since everything is always, what What there is is movement of infinity, an impersonal kaleidoscope that moves cyclically and eternally. Maybe people who are in stage 5 are still limited? because for me there is something clear, I do not believe anything or anyone. I take everything with 2 kg of salt, anecdotal. There is a possibility that no one, ever, has been enlightened. Forget for a moment the stages, reality is not that square, no science can contain this that we are trying to open . 

Look, this of: I'm not anymore the avatar, I am the field of consciousness where the avatar is happening, like an illusion, is still limited, is still self. 

Edited February 29 by Breakingthewall

[Inliytened1]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

If there isn't self, there is not the idea of oneness or others, you can't say there are no others, just unlimited is. Others are out of the equation, even if they exist or not. Others doesn't matter. Look, the others exist right? You can see them now, you are talking with people, so you could deduct that then infinite splits infinitely, so inside you there is infinite and inside me too, inside and outside are the same, it's infinity, another rules. 

If there isn't a self, then there isn't other either.  But that is precisely what Oneness is.   Lets look - do other's exist? yes!  sure they exist - as a concept.  The self also exists, as a concept.  Read Peter Ralston for more insight into that.  I'm speaking with you conceptually now, so whether you physically exist is immaterial - we are merely concepts ourselves exchanging concepts.  On a deeper level it is just God speaking with God.

Edited February 29 by Inliytened1

[puporing]

34 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

Leo releases videos and blog posts that explains his spiritual progress. You have not done a sufficient job of explaining yourself thus you cannot be understood. Until you communicate in a manner that people can understand then you will be misunderstood.

It's not so simple. I am literally on his forum. That's a limitation for me that you cannot see currently. You guys are very naive about this. I almost got a 3 day ban (from a mod) just for claiming to be Jesus.

Edited February 29 by puporing

[Breakingthewall]

7 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Read Peter Ralston for more insight into that.  I'm

I don't read spirituality at all, it's all toxic, just ideas that probably are wrong. Look, if there is no self, there is no limits, and in the absence of limits everything is, including the others. With his own conciousness, and the absence of others, do you understand? No because you can't understand the infinity making it finite. No others is finite. One is finite. Many is finite. The mind is finite, just drop the mind, turn off any meaning

Edited February 29 by Breakingthewall

[Inliytened1]

 

@Water by the RiverThere is no specific way an enlightened being has to act, or even teach.  They can use words how they deem fit- but the key there, is that they will be pointing to something that can be found in direct experience.  Some may use the word God, others may choose not to.  Some may use the term ifninite, others may not.  But there is usually going to be a common ground somewhere.  Like you said, most enlightened beings don't really speak openly with such terms as God and Solipsism, because as you pointed out, it can cause confusion for the unenlightened being.  So i agree there.   This is something we do here rather flippently, and perhaps we should tone it down rather than cause confusion or cause the newcomer here to fall into delusion of the ego... But i think as long as it is pointed out not to take anything as a belief or an idealogy, but to do spiritual practices to discover whats True for yourself, then the teacher is doing his due diligence..  And again, here we also have a book list with many great authors, some enightened, that can break it down better than we can on a forum, with threads that are often incomplete or missing certain aspects of things.  Look at all the texts you have perused and your knowledge of spirituaity is pretty top notch.  So you didn't get confused.  We can't really make everyone understand how not to confuse the ego with the various facets of enlightenment.  We make it pretty clear that the ego goes by the wayside, in fact, when one realizes these facets.   But only through spiritual practices, and I might add, deep suffering.  Deep suffering is a necessary component, hence my post.  I think it is often overlooked.

 

Edited February 29 by Inliytened1

[Inliytened1]

2 hours ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

Ever heard of Yin & Yang?

There can be no "awakened people" without "not awakened people".

Reality 101.

Well, that's not entirely true - there could be all awakened people.  Wouldn't such a society be glorious?

it would be far different from what we have now.  Just nothing but mystics.  Now that is like something out of a science fiction book, like an advanced, awakened, alien race.  

[Water by the River]

1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

There is no specific way an enlightened being has to act, or even teach.  They can use words how they deem fit- but they key there, is that they will be pointing to something that can be found in direct experience.  Some may use the word God, others may choose not to

You are right. Actually, I didn't have you in mind at all when I criticized the usage of God as pointer, because you know what you are talking about, or have that as direct experience/realization.

Which can probably not be said about everyone claiming that "I had a God-Realization and I am God and had an awakening that I imagine everything". Maya often smiles lovingly  at the authors of such statements....  

 

[Razard86]

6 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Haha.. Awakening isn't mandatory.   I guess a lot go through life and never know the difference.  But why does God want to realize himself in only some forms?  Does he have a bias to certain form?.  It's interesting.  It's paradoxical because you have deduce that either its random, or God just wants to awaken itself in certain forms.

But again, because of Solipsism, this question is null and void, but its fun to just imagine.

Solipsism doesn't negate your question. Solipsism directs the question to you. So what is the cause of your awakening. You say its suffering, but other dream characters suffer and don't awaken. So investigate, you also tried to say genes but to me that is an easy cop-out. The study of epigenetics says GENES change over your lifetime, so that answer is a lazy answer. Look up identical twin studies if you want a better understanding of what I am talking about.

So the answer I think is environment. What you are exposed too. So actually investigate your awakening, what the events that happened and how did they relate to it happening?

[Breakingthewall]

4 hours ago, Water by the River said:

And they do know that all is an imagined illusion happening within "their" own Infinite Being/True Being by definition

This quote is that make me think about limitation. Maybe I'm wrong, but it cannot be an illusion, infinity by definition is everything, there is nothing that can be manifested or imagined, there is no field of consciousness where the imagined reality appears because consciousness implies separation between the one who is conscious and the object of the that being conscious, there is only the object, that same time is subject, which exists and existing is synonymous with consciousness. That quote is true in the sense that everything is the same: existence. Doesn't matter what appears, everything is just existence, but it's real

Well, sorry for questioning your words before but it is necessary to avoid falling into dogma, perhaps they are true but for me they are limiting and any limit is perceived as a trap, toxicity. 

But anyway, your exposition is brilliant and profound, I am sorry for attacking what I have seen as false but it is a matter of instinct. Maybe in the future I'll think: this guy was completely right

4 hours ago, Water by the River said:

aficionado get to stage 5, True No Self (also nondual, but without center/separate-self-illusion, truly being the Infinite Totality/Being). Stable Nondual realization of Infinite Being in daily life. Maybe somebody knows one, would be very interested

How can it be known? Where do you know people who is seriously interested in this? Would be interesting 

Edited February 29 by Breakingthewall

[koops]

I just read yesterday: ''Adversity introduces a man to itself''

Wise words.

[gettoefl]

21 minutes ago, koops said:

I just read yesterday: ''Adversity introduces a man to itself''

Wise words.

no billionaires at meditation retreats, they succeeded not suffered

only in throwing your hands in the air from the gutter and pleading there must be another way do the angels minister to me and point the way

this indeed is how a course in miracles came about

[Water by the River]

"And they do know that all is an imagined illusion happening within "their" own Infinite Being/True Being by definition"

57 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

This quote is that make me think about limitation. Maybe I'm wrong, but it cannot be an illusion, infinity by definition is everything, there is nothing that can be manifested or imagined, there is no field of consciousness where the imagined reality appears because consciousness implies separation between the one who is conscious and the object of the that being conscious, there is only the object, that same time is subject, which exists and existing is synonymous with consciousness.

Well, sorry for questioning your words before but it is necessary to avoid falling into dogma, perhaps they are true but for me they are limiting and any limit is perceived as a trap, toxicity. 

But anyway, your exposition is brilliant and profound, I am sorry for attacking what I have seen as false but it is a matter of instinct. Maybe in the future I'll think: this guy was completely right

I think we align quite well, although its difficult to express these thing just in writing.

With imagined Illusion I mean that the tree "out there" is no solid object existing independently existing from the human/consciousness perceiving it, like its normally perceived with the dualistic and materialistic view. 

The appearance itself is real. It appears. But it is just a lucid, groundless mere appearance. Like the appearance in a dream. Normally, in the standard-perception is seems to be external/out-there (duality), and solid (or material). In truth, its neither "out there/external" (nondual), nor solid/material (but appearing as lucid hologram-like (mere appearance, imagined, "dream-stuff" so to say).

 

And yes, (self-)consciousness implies often a separation. With perceptions perceiving themselves I want to express that there are states where there is no I-thought and I-feeling. Then it is literally the universe perceiving itself, Being perceiving itself. That is also what  I mean when writing "impersonal". Although this report of Steven Norquist is a bit "pushing" the empty/scary character , which can be the initial reaction if this realization goes very fast, in truth its the most wonderful state imaginable.

http://www.hauntedpress.net/What_is_Enlightenment.html

It is Awareness in and by itself, not the "personal" consciousness. There never is and was a personal consciousness, it is only non-personal Infinite Being/Awareness. "Impersonal" can sound bad, but isn't: Its all ones True Being, and that is aware, and eternal. Containing the whole world, and also a human and its thoughts/feelings. It is a much larger Being than the previous illusion-human. And much more blissful. 

This Awareness in and by itself (of Infinite Being) "lends" or appears as personal consciousness (which isn't conscious at all, because True Infinite Being is the Awareness/consciousness cosplaying limited personal consciousness). So nothing is really lost besides the illusion of being just a small separate human. True Being can not be lost, ever. Immortal. Eternal. Unborn.

Does that clarify a bit? Did I understand you correctly?

Edited February 29 by Water by the River

[Starlight321]

I haven't read the whole thread but I think the difference between an ordinary person suffering and a person who awakens is that he or she suffers consciously and doesn't act on it and gives up. 

 

When I was on a 14 day a 18hours vipassana retreat I suffered for a week enormously and was soo deperate and then letting go happened and there was freedom from myself without really knowing what was missing. Now I know that for a few days the I was missing, then it came back very strong a sabotaged the rest of the retreat.

Has anybody already said that?

Edited February 29 by Starlight321

[Javfly33]

6 hours ago, Water by the River said:

On an Absolute Level, "it" or better True You is solipsistic. Alone and infinite. True You/Infinite Being is "alone" because "it" is infinite with nothing possibly outside of it. But that is True You/True Being.

 

@Water by the River So the POV is just an appareance? True Infinite being goes beyond It? (Or "behind It", or "outside of It") ? 😂