What is woke?

[martins name]

What differentiates woke from green? Many who don't understand spiral dynamics use woke for green. But the same people wouldn't say a hippie from the 60s were woke. So they are clearly different things.

What's y'all's thoughts?

[Leo Gura]

Hippies qualify as woke. It just not commonly applied to them because woke is a new term and hippie is an old term so they are from different cultural generations.

But when a hippe says "love one another and world peace", right-wingers would consider that woke.

[Scholar]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Hippies qualify as woke. It just not commonly applied to them because woke is a new term and hippie is an old term so they are from different cultural generations.

But when a hippe says "love one another and world peace", right-wingers would consider that woke.

The average hippie was far more developed than the average woke person.

[Girzo]

14 minutes ago, Scholar said:

The average hippie was far more developed than the average woke person.

Disagree. Through all the Woodstock festivals and Vietnam war protests, the atendees were mostly stage Red, Blue and Orange folk who liked to party and didn't want to get sent to a war. Really developed hippies have been a drop in the water, as they still are today.

To argue that they were more developed on other lines of development than values underlying their decisions, you would need data that I am unsure of even existing. I haven't researched the topic of counterculture deeply.

Edited February 28 by Girzo

[Scholar]

6 minutes ago, Girzo said:

Disagree. Through all the Woodstock festivals and Vietnam war protests, the atendees were mostly stage Red, Blue and Orange folk who liked to party and didn't want to get sent to a war. Really developed hippies have been a drop in the water, as they still are today.

To argue that they were more developed on other lines of development than values underlying their decisions, you would need data that I am unsure of even existing. I haven't researched the topic of counterculture deeply.

Just because many hippies were undeveloped doesn't mean the average hippie wasn't more developed than the average woke person today.

[Joel3102]

@Leo Gura I feel like woke has actually diverged in a lot of ways to hippie culture. Hippies like RFK are anti vax wheras woke people are staunchly pro vax

[Girzo]

10 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Just because many hippies were undeveloped doesn't mean the average hippie wasn't more developed than the average woke person today

And I feel and say it's the other way. Without data we just have two opinions.

What lines of development are you thinking about in particular? 

[Scholar]

6 minutes ago, Girzo said:

And I feel and say it's the other way. Without data we just have two opinions.

What lines of development are you thinking about in particular? 

I can't think of a line of development in which woke people would be more developed, but I don't have all of them in mind right now.

[Leo Gura]

18 minutes ago, Joel3102 said:

@Leo Gura I feel like woke has actually diverged in a lot of ways to hippie culture. Hippies like RFK are anti vax wheras woke people are staunchly pro vax

Woke people can be anti-vax.

Anti-vax has two poles: the right-wing regressive pole and the left-wing progressive pole. I know plenty of spiritual people who are very anti-vax because they are so into holistic health. Of course they are deluded. But for different reasons than the MAGA people.

[martins name]

I guess a more interesting question is how do you draw the distinction, instead of how is it drawn in the culture at large? I did not intend for this thread to be about hippies vs woke. My point is that woke is a subcategory of green. I don't know exactly how. Is it perhaps green taken as a political ideology? But then can there be green political ideology that isn't woke?

[Girzo]

27 minutes ago, martins name said:

But then can there be green political ideology that isn't woke?

If you want an answer to that then you really need to define what you mean by woke first.

Stage Green is already well-defined, even if that distinction doesn't make that much sense for professional scientists in the fields of culture evolution or values research.

On the other hand, I have no idea what your idea of woke encompasses, thus it's impossible to tell where they are different and where they overlap as concepts.

A high quality question is half the answer.

 

Edited February 28 by Girzo

[martins name]

@Girzo That's why I'm asking what woke is. My point is that woke is not the same as green

[Girzo]

I am getting strong "but it's you who is calling" vibes.

To make your point you need to say what you mean by woke. How else are we going to have a discussion?

Contemplate the "What is woke?" question by yourself and then share your thoughts. I will be eager to read them.

[mrPixel]

4 hours ago, Girzo said:

To make your point you need to say what you mean by woke. How else are we going to have a discussion?

The literal title of this thread is "What is woke?" Asking the OP to define woke just seems like you're missing the point.

7 hours ago, martins name said:

What differentiates woke from green?

I'll take a stab.

Woke is a confusing term but it is, after all, just a concept.

I think Leo had a good point in saying that the right wing would say that love and peace is woke ideology.

It depends on who you ask, but IMO, woke encompasses the unhealthy manifestations of green.

The woke ignore science in the name of equality is just one thing I can think of. You could say a lack of critical thinking as well. Or maybe even hypersensitivity, "Let's not offend anyone."

Healthy green won't necessarily fall into the trappings that the so called woke do.

[mrPixel]

Check out the "Qualities and Shadows" section of: https://spiraldynamicsintegral.nl/en/green/

[Yimpa]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Woke people can be anti-vax.

Anti-vax has two poles: the right-wing regressive pole and the left-wing progressive pole. I know plenty of spiritual people who are very anti-vax because they are so into holistic health. Of course they are deluded. But for different reasons than the MAGA people.

Aren’t scientists and politicians who are pro-vaccine and push for every single person to get the vaccine also deluded? 

[bebotalk]

8 hours ago, martins name said:

What differentiates woke from green? Many who don't understand spiral dynamics use woke for green. But the same people wouldn't say a hippie from the 60s were woke. So they are clearly different things.

What's y'all's thoughts?

Woke is a perversion of egalitarianism.

It calls for things that are loosely based on an egalitarian angle but are twisted with neo-Marxist theory.

It's woke that calls for university safe spaces, for anti-abortion speakers on campuses and other such evils. 

It calls for cancel culture, because a content creator said a usually bigoted term in a non-bigoted context. Because banishment is always an effective tool of social regulation. 

It calls for xenogenders, and twisting people into extreme trans ideology.

it says that any edgy humour, even if done by people of a group that it supposedly hurts, is evil and bigoted. Disabled people cannot make edgy jokes about disability, since it's harmful. 

It calls on saying people who lived long ago, who lived in times when bigotry was more common, should never, ever, be highlighted due to their beliefs. Why not tear down the Abraham Lincoln Memorial in DC, since whilst he was an abolitionist, he wanted to take the freed blacks back to Africa?

It calls for making historical figures that were proven to be white non-white in popular media. And refuses to make media of prominent non-white figures, since it's "punching up". 

The fathers of contemporary egalitarianism, in spirit anyhow, are Gandhi, Dr. King, and Malcolm X. They wouldn't agree with contemporary wokeism. 

Wokeism isn't the same as standard feminism, anti-racism, etc. It's a distortion of such which causes division and is not actually egalitarian. 

Woke isn't just being radical for a given time. It's imho at least a specific interpretation of egalitarian thought that seeks division and not inclusivity. 

The 1990s was the ideal balance. One can call out and condemn bigotry, but not censor comedians who say edgy jokes, since nuance is lost in the human condition and anybody who is ever edgy is inherently bigoted and only ever using such as a mask for their negative views. Chris Rock, a black man no less, couldn't do his famous "ns vs. black people" set today - he'd be called racist when he's black himself, and that was a sentiment that many successful and productive black Americans believed. And still DO BELIEVE. 

 

[Karmadhi]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Hippies qualify as woke. It just not commonly applied to them because woke is a new term and hippie is an old term so they are from different cultural generations.

But when a hippe says "love one another and world peace", right-wingers would consider that woke.

Where I live people link wokeness with lgbt, trans people, hardcore feminism, gender neutrality, identifying as animals, choosing not to have childreen, white shaming etc. So with the excesses of stage green. I consider myself mostly green but people I notice tend to associate wokeness with those hardcore green people, not moderate greens like people on this forum. 

So even though wokeness would be considered in principle stage green, people associate wokeness with TOXIC green rather than green in itself.

Especially those that love to demonize it.

I wonder how we can stop allocating all green with only toxic green.

Edited February 28 by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

Wokeness is whatever right-wingers happpen to be in denial about at the moment.

Edited February 28 by Leo Gura

[Thought Art]

Funny, I had spent some time around an old Christian man the last couple months. 
 

He did often complain about the woke. Also, I see more clearly how conservative mind works. 
 

Though, many conservatives have a lot going for them as well. Assuming they are a quality conservative.

Edited February 28 by Thought Art