Sorry, but yes, Death is the End.

[Breakingthewall]

6 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

nowing this Life is not of the ego, i think it helps to separate Yourself from It. 

 

Yes but this is still structured knowledge. The way I see it is that the first thing you have to achieve easily is to get out of the mind, that is, from the meaning, the projection to the future and the past. Expand yourself in the now and be able to erase the timeline that gives meaning. Without time there is no meaning, and you could say that time and meaning are imaginary, they are mental constructions with a purpose, to function as a human.

Once you can get out of that and get into the empty present completely, you can go deeper into it. It still remains limited. It is unlimited in the longitudinal sense, it does not pass, it is always now, changing but now. but it is limited in the deep sense, you are a bubble of reality, you can be stuck in the now but the bubble limits the depth. This can be expanded, it can be opened to what this experience is, how it is flowing and what its let's say matter is, seeing fluid intelligence. and something else. What I have come to sense is an immeasurable immensity, a perfect synchrony that is manifested and can be seen. not to understand conceptually but to see how you see a sunrise, to perceive what it is at a deep level.

[Arthogaan]

34 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yes but this is still structured knowledge. The way I see it is that the first thing you have to achieve easily is to get out of the mind, that is, from the meaning, the projection to the future and the past. Expand yourself in the now and be able to erase the timeline that gives meaning. Without time there is no meaning, and you could say that time and meaning are imaginary, they are mental constructions with a purpose, to function as a human.

Once you can get out of that and get into the empty present completely, you can go deeper into it. It still remains limited. It is unlimited in the longitudinal sense, it does not pass, it is always now, changing but now. but it is limited in the deep sense, you are a bubble of reality, you can be stuck in the now but the bubble limits the depth. This can be expanded, it can be opened to what this experience is, how it is flowing and what its let's say matter is, seeing fluid intelligence. and something else. What I have come to sense is an immeasurable immensity, a perfect synchrony that is manifested and can be seen. not to understand conceptually but to see how you see a sunrise, to perceive what it is at a deep level.

Brilliant!

[Soul Flight]

I'm too lazy to read this whole thread.

But if you do ketamine you see how your consciousness can disassociate from your body and merge with materials around you. I have experienced this and have read many trip reports stating the same. So I suspect we don't die and just return to the source or void or the collective consciousness. Suicide doesn't work either. You can kill this body but you cannot kill your true self. We are eternal. That is my hunch anyway.

[MellowEd]

 

You have to face God after this short life.

[MellowEd]

 

[Purple Man]

16 hours ago, Water by the River said:

 

The Infinite Reality/Being containing and manifesting/imagining it (like dreamer in a dream) is the constant, although it literally is formless. Yet, it has the potential for the illusion/manifesting creation, and also for awareness/sentience/self-consciousness. And that potential awareness becomes consciousness/self-aware if manifestation happens.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please, lend me a hand on this: How is the leap for the Godhead from not manifesting to manifesting possible if Self-Awareness is just an option that actualizes only after manifestation? This is really the last piece of the puzzle. I just can´t understand how Self Awareness, that is, Awareness of Its own Existence, is not the very essence of the Absolute even when there is cessation, since it takes "volition", "creativity", "desire to manifest", for manifestation to appear. 
 

[Yimpa]

Another way to think of death is the end of your identity. You are born anew 

[Water by the River]

7 hours ago, Purple Man said:

Please, lend me a hand on this: How is the leap for the Godhead from not manifesting to manifesting possible if Self-Awareness is just an option that actualizes only after manifestation? This is really the last piece of the puzzle. I just can´t understand how Self Awareness, that is, Awareness of Its own Existence, is not the very essence of the Absolute even when there is cessation, since it takes "volition", "creativity", "desire to manifest", for manifestation to appear. 

You are right that this is the last piece of the puzzle. Self-Awareness (bold marking by me), or awareness of its own existence is indeed NOT the   Absolute. Its the last illusion... I wouldn't say that for Awareness (since here we would be on slippery terrain), but for self-awareness/self-consciousness definitely.

Massaro summarized it nicely. Maybe watch that video a few times, and then the other parts of the Infinity-series:

Awareness is "always there" (or not, since its beyond existing and non-existing), at least as a potential for sentience (if nothing arises, aka cessation, deep sleep), but if there is nothing to perceive there is no (self-)-consciousness. Unaware Deep Sleep, Cessation. But it doesnt really make sense to talk about awareness/consciousness if there is no perception, since then there is also no self-consciousness or self-awareness. Its pure Infinity/Absolute. The clap of the one hand.

THAT Reality/Being which can be unaware of itself is what you are. Not the (self-)awareness with which one identifies, that is one of the last lenses/filters of illusion. You can be nothing at all, unaware of yourself (since there is no self-reflective self yet), with the potential for sentience. In your case, I assume getting that is the last building block to Enlightenment and fully getting what you are.

Without fully realizing that, there is a subtle murky "nothing" self (Roger Thisdell stage 4). Thisdells stage 5 (another video) is then the resolve of the contradictions of stage 4.

Everything else after this True Being/Absolute comes later: Manifestation, Infinite Field of mere appearance, gods & humans & aliens and the whole shebang.

The "I am self-Awareness/Consciousness" feeling/thought/Gestalt (very subtle, hard to spot, the end boss so to say) is the last illusion/filter/lense of the last separate-self that can be constructed. And since it can be seen, since it changes, its an object, temporary, moving in True You.

Leaves us with the point who/what realized all of that? Reality/Being realizes itself. And that is called Enlightenment. Its not personal, its not anything separate. It is Reality comprehending itself.

 

Jac O'Keffee:

"We're left with consciousness that cannot know  itself. It's such a fundamental that it actually   can't know itself.

However, it is known.  You can drop back there and it is known,   but you can't bring yourself there  or your capacities to know it.  

It's almost like it's so fundamental  that it can't turn around and see itself.   It doesn't see itself. That's too much  movement. That's movement such as space,   time and identification and me, myself, I,  and the building of my movie that happens".

 

And maybe most important. It is not an it, or an Absolute, or anything "third person singular"-pronoun at all that "has" "Awareness" and explodes into manifestation. IT IS You. True You. With a big Y. 

That becomes totally obvious when the whole field is a mere appearance floating in Nothingness/Infinity (1), and you are "It" since there is no separate anything left at all, no center at all left (2). Nondual mere appearance, impersonally floating in the Infinite impersonal Universal Mind. Something reflecting about what it is (awareness,self-awareness, whatever) is already a separate-self (a manifestation, arising, moving within You. I-Thoughts/I-feelings have no dimension or form, but are still appearance/imagination/arising/"form"), and that hides the True Reality/Being. Too much movement... So yes, its tricky...

Roger Thisdells stage model is nice. Since at stage 3 "Big-Mind" (Frank Yang called that God-state, easy to be reached via Psychedelics), one is already the nondual field (1). But getting the separate self mostly empty (Thisdell stage 4), and totally empty (Thisdell stage 5, centerlessness, Enlightenment), needs emptying out the separate-self completely. I have never seen one case where that was done mainly or purely with psychedelics. Not enough time in these states to empty out/transcend/understand the "high-speed-machine-gun-illusion-fire" of the separte-self-ego. But instead that lovely darling quite active appropriating all of the Nondual Infinity, Gods, Demons, ETs, n+1... Which sometimes is not for the faint-of-hearted.

 

Ok, so, after mis-understanding the question the way I wanted in order to write about what I liked, lets come back to the original question: 

And why the "first" movement happened?

1.First, that is a question that presupposes duality. Form vs. emptiness, and also time. Which means it can't really be answered on the level of concepts. But lets try it anyway as good as possible, just so that it calms the remaining questions you have, so that you can rest in your True Being in a non-conceptual way so that the Big Bang can happen..

2. Think in dimensions of Indras Net. Just because "your" perspective is "switched off" in cessation/deep sleep doesn't shut off all other perspectives. Understanding one single perspective ("yours") is enough to understand the structure of all perspectives/beings/nodes in Indras Net as Universal/Infinite Mind. Indras Net (which is also True You, but lets take the separte perspective) "continues" happily even if your perspective goes cessation/infinite/blank.

3. Who said it ever started? That is already a lot of Duality smuggled in.

The past is imagined in its Totality right here and now. Its all a big illusion, including the past. True You is here right now, imagining all of it, fooling itself with such questions as you have (sorry to say, but you are close to the endgame boss, so I hope you forgive me). Get "rid" of the questions, let them dissolve in your infinite Nondual Being as mere movements of thought-arisings, and rest in your being in a non-conceptual way (Nonmeditation-Yoga). And sometimes softly ask yourself "who hears these words right now", but without effort and grasping. I have written extensively about Nonmeditation-Yoga (Mahamudra) somewhere else. Then the Big Bang can happen, Infinite Reality understanding itself.

4. Only Formlessness/emptiness/Infinity would be an asymetry. God has infinite potential of manifestation that apparently is being explored right here & now by "you" and "me" and "everyone else". To use a human metaphor: It is the nature of the Infinite to explore its potential, going from each creation cycle to the next. There have been many descriptions when coming out of cesstion/Nirvikalpha this original impulse for creation can be experienced. Not IN cessation (since there is nothing/pure infinity), but coming out of it.

And, since its en vogue, lets close with ET:

 

After so much Selling Water by the River, here the much more precise summary: The old pond, A frog jumps in: Plop! - Basho

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Water by the River said:

And why the "first" movement happened?

Only one possibility: It never happened, the cosmos is same absolute that the empty conciousness .

The reality of the absence of limits is the cause of the existence of the cosmos, which is infinite in constant cyclical movement. As the absence of limits is nothing, the cause is nothing, there is no cause, there is eternal existence of everything that is, I guess that in a cyclical movement, a great cycle composed of infinite cycles that rotates eternally.

[Razard86]

On 2/24/2024 at 8:43 AM, Soul Flight said:

I'm too lazy to read this whole thread.

But if you do ketamine you see how your consciousness can disassociate from your body and merge with materials around you. I have experienced this and have read many trip reports stating the same. So I suspect we don't die and just return to the source or void or the collective consciousness. Suicide doesn't work either. You can kill this body but you cannot kill your true self. We are eternal. That is my hunch anyway.

If you deconstruct your mind, that can be your daily experience. You are always merged you just aren't aware of it. But you can be. Deconstruct your current materialist mental model.

[Javfly33]

36 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

If you deconstruct your mind, that can be your daily experience. You are always merged you just aren't aware of it. But you can be. Deconstruct your current materialist mental model.

He´s already in the void or source, but ego has a lot of stories about afterlifes and 'collective consciousnesses' in order to separate itself 😆

[Javfly33]

This is already Nothing. Body, objects, others, just Nothing. No separation, no distance, no borders. Nothing exists, everything else is a fantasy of a dreamer that is unreal in the first place.

 Death is already this. We are confusing an appearance for Reality 😅

Edited February 26 by Javfly33

[Asia P]

On 22/2/2024 at 9:16 PM, Javfly33 said:

This is a game that only Pure Nothing Wins. And no, you are not Nothing.

That's the point, nothingness is infiniteness. But you can't grasp it (or maybe is almost impossible), in this dream which is called reality. 

Edited February 26 by Asia P

[Javfly33]

39 minutes ago, Asia P said:

That's the point, nothingness is infiniteness. But you can't grasp it (or maybe is almost impossible), in this dream which is called reality. 

of course you can grasp yourself. 

there is no dream/reality (1) + (2) you.

Only (1) = Dream = Reality = You = Death = This. 

[Ry4n]

I’ve had paranormal experiences that were undeniable from a young age that has convinced me that there’s an afterlife. 
Floating objects, moving objects, a random mechanic who’s mother is a psychic that was having dreams about my encounters without even knowing who I am…things like that. 
 

There is clearly an afterlife. Paranormal phenomena is real, psychic phenomena is real.

Reply if you’d like to know more.

 

[Asia P]

@Javfly33

17 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

of course you can grasp yourself. 

there is no dream/reality (1) + (2) you.

Only (1) = Dream = Reality = You = Death = This. 

Complete realization of your infinite nature of god...i don't know if a human mind can grasp this concept completely

[MellowEd]

If you don't walk with God you are dead in your trespasses. 

Hell is very real. 

 

[Inliytened1]

16 minutes ago, MellowEd said:

If you don't walk with God you are dead in your trespasses. 

Hell is very real. 

No hell is only what you make it.  If you want to make this place your personal hell you will do it.  But Hell isn't some place under the ground - its right here   or it can be heaven at the same time.  All depends on you

 

 

 

Edited February 28 by Inliytened1

[Arthogaan]

On 25.02.2024 at 10:04 AM, Water by the River said:

You are right that this is the last piece of the puzzle. Self-Awareness (bold marking by me), or awareness of its own existence is indeed NOT the   Absolute. Its the last illusion... I wouldn't say that for Awareness (since here we would be on slippery terrain), but for self-awareness/self-consciousness definitely.

Massaro summarized it nicely. Maybe watch that video a few times, and then the other parts of the Infinity-series:

Awareness is "always there" (or not, since its beyond existing and non-existing), at least as a potential for sentience (if nothing arises, aka cessation, deep sleep), but if there is nothing to perceive there is no (self-)-consciousness. Unaware Deep Sleep, Cessation. But it doesnt really make sense to talk about awareness/consciousness if there is no perception, since then there is also no self-consciousness or self-awareness. Its pure Infinity/Absolute. The clap of the one hand.

THAT Reality/Being which can be unaware of itself is what you are. Not the (self-)awareness with which one identifies, that is one of the last lenses/filters of illusion. You can be nothing at all, unaware of yourself (since there is no self-reflective self yet), with the potential for sentience. In your case, I assume getting that is the last building block to Enlightenment and fully getting what you are.

Without fully realizing that, there is a subtle murky "nothing" self (Roger Thisdell stage 4). Thisdells stage 5 (another video) is then the resolve of the contradictions of stage 4.

Everything else after this True Being/Absolute comes later: Manifestation, Infinite Field of mere appearance, gods & humans & aliens and the whole shebang.

The "I am self-Awareness/Consciousness" feeling/thought/Gestalt (very subtle, hard to spot, the end boss so to say) is the last illusion/filter/lense of the last separate-self that can be constructed. And since it can be seen, since it changes, its an object, temporary, moving in True You.

Leaves us with the point who/what realized all of that? Reality/Being realizes itself. And that is called Enlightenment. Its not personal, its not anything separate. It is Reality comprehending itself.

 

Jac O'Keffee:

"We're left with consciousness that cannot know  itself. It's such a fundamental that it actually   can't know itself.

However, it is known.  You can drop back there and it is known,   but you can't bring yourself there  or your capacities to know it.  

It's almost like it's so fundamental  that it can't turn around and see itself.   It doesn't see itself. That's too much  movement. That's movement such as space,   time and identification and me, myself, I,  and the building of my movie that happens".

 

And maybe most important. It is not an it, or an Absolute, or anything "third person singular"-pronoun at all that "has" "Awareness" and explodes into manifestation. IT IS You. True You. With a big Y. 

That becomes totally obvious when the whole field is a mere appearance floating in Nothingness/Infinity (1), and you are "It" since there is no separate anything left at all, no center at all left (2). Nondual mere appearance, impersonally floating in the Infinite impersonal Universal Mind. Something reflecting about what it is (awareness,self-awareness, whatever) is already a separate-self (a manifestation, arising, moving within You. I-Thoughts/I-feelings have no dimension or form, but are still appearance/imagination/arising/"form"), and that hides the True Reality/Being. Too much movement... So yes, its tricky...

Roger Thisdells stage model is nice. Since at stage 3 "Big-Mind" (Frank Yang called that God-state, easy to be reached via Psychedelics), one is already the nondual field (1). But getting the separate self mostly empty (Thisdell stage 4), and totally empty (Thisdell stage 5, centerlessness, Enlightenment), needs emptying out the separate-self completely. I have never seen one case where that was done mainly or purely with psychedelics. Not enough time in these states to empty out/transcend/understand the "high-speed-machine-gun-illusion-fire" of the separte-self-ego. But instead that lovely darling quite active appropriating all of the Nondual Infinity, Gods, Demons, ETs, n+1... Which sometimes is not for the faint-of-hearted.

 

Ok, so, after mis-understanding the question the way I wanted in order to write about what I liked, lets come back to the original question: 

And why the "first" movement happened?

1.First, that is a question that presupposes duality. Form vs. emptiness, and also time. Which means it can't really be answered on the level of concepts. But lets try it anyway as good as possible, just so that it calms the remaining questions you have, so that you can rest in your True Being in a non-conceptual way so that the Big Bang can happen..

2. Think in dimensions of Indras Net. Just because "your" perspective is "switched off" in cessation/deep sleep doesn't shut off all other perspectives. Understanding one single perspective ("yours") is enough to understand the structure of all perspectives/beings/nodes in Indras Net as Universal/Infinite Mind. Indras Net (which is also True You, but lets take the separte perspective) "continues" happily even if your perspective goes cessation/infinite/blank.

3. Who said it ever started? That is already a lot of Duality smuggled in.

The past is imagined in its Totality right here and now. Its all a big illusion, including the past. True You is here right now, imagining all of it, fooling itself with such questions as you have (sorry to say, but you are close to the endgame boss, so I hope you forgive me). Get "rid" of the questions, let them dissolve in your infinite Nondual Being as mere movements of thought-arisings, and rest in your being in a non-conceptual way (Nonmeditation-Yoga). And sometimes softly ask yourself "who hears these words right now", but without effort and grasping. I have written extensively about Nonmeditation-Yoga (Mahamudra) somewhere else. Then the Big Bang can happen, Infinite Reality understanding itself.

4. Only Formlessness/emptiness/Infinity would be an asymetry. God has infinite potential of manifestation that apparently is being explored right here & now by "you" and "me" and "everyone else". To use a human metaphor: It is the nature of the Infinite to explore its potential, going from each creation cycle to the next. There have been many descriptions when coming out of cesstion/Nirvikalpha this original impulse for creation can be experienced. Not IN cessation (since there is nothing/pure infinity), but coming out of it.

And, since its en vogue, lets close with ET:

 

After so much Selling Water by the River, here the much more precise summary: The old pond, A frog jumps in: Plop! - Basho

Holy shit man. This is Golden. I just read that in meditative state and it clicked. You beautifullly filled out the spots left by Roger and Massaro.

Non-experiencial comprehension of infinity. 

Could you help me understand how that comprehension relates to 7, 8th and 9th Jhana?

[Water by the River]

52 minutes ago, Arthogaan said:

Could you help me understand how that comprehension relates to 7, 8th and 9th Jhana?

https://www.rogerthisdell.com/post/let-s-talk-nirodha-samapatti-insights-into-valance-and-the-supposed-ontic-primacy-of-consciousness

https://www.rogerthisdell.com/post/meta-awareness-modes-of-perceptions-super-positions-cycling-insight-stages-and-boundarylessness

 

https://www.rogerthisdell.com/post/centrelessness-boundarylessness-phenomenology-and-freedom-from-the-cage-of-the-mind

https://www.rogerthisdell.com/post/throwing-my-hat-in-the-jhana-ring

 

Hope that is useful. With this information you can align the Jhana path with the descriptions of my original post.

Basically, at that stage of the path one can't force it, and Jhana Concentration style becomes less efficient.

Something like Mahamudra/Non-Meditation or Dzogchen becomes more efficient at the last stages. 

https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Nonmeditation Yoga&author=Water by the River

But not before this stage, shortly before the finishing line.