If Time Is An Illusion, How Is Awakening Real On An Existential Level.

[Osaid]

1 hour ago, Princess Arabia said:

but since Enlightenment is not an experience how is it possible that some are and some aren't.

Enlightenment = everything/experience/existence

Humans have the capability to imagine that they are not "everything/experience/existence." They have the capability to imagine themselves as something they are not, this is what an identity is. This imagination/identity itself is also part of "everything/experience/existence" by necessity.

Being an "enlightened person" is realizing "oh im not the thing inside my imagination." But also, at the same time, your imagination did not change anything metaphysically, it is the very thing enlightenment is "made up of."

"Unenlightenment" is a human invention through imagination. It is specifically the human capacity to entangle your identity inside of your imagination. When someone untangles themselves from their imagination, you point to them and say "that person is enlightened!" because they are now acting in accordance with what they actually are, not what they imagine that they are.

Hope that made some sense. 

[Breakingthewall]

11 minutes ago, Osaid said:

because they are now acting in accordance with what they actually are, not what they imagine that they are.

I remember very good my state of being when I was 5 years old and i haven't beliefs , was very happy, but wasn't a real opening, it's different 

Edited February 15 by Breakingthewall

[Princess Arabia]

35 minutes ago, Osaid said:

Enlightenment = everything/experience/existence

Humans have the capability to imagine that they are not "everything/experience/existence." They have the capability to imagine themselves as something they are not, this is what an identity is. This imagination/identity itself is also part of "everything/experience/existence" by necessity.

Being an "enlightened person" is realizing "oh im not the thing inside my imagination." But also, at the same time, your imagination did not change anything metaphysically, it is the very thing enlightenment is "made up of."

"Unenlightenment" is a human invention through imagination. It is specifically the human capacity to entangle your identity inside of your imagination. When someone untangles themselves from their imagination, you point to them and say "that person is enlightened!" because they are now acting in accordance with what they actually are, not what they imagine that they are.

Hope that made some sense. 

Yes it made sense.

[Princess Arabia]

58 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Now it's what's left when you turn off your mind. Time is being created by the mind, the mind is all the time creating a timeline that goes from before to after. The act of weaving thoughts is something that happens sequentially and creates the sensation of time. you think one thing, then another, etc. Opening to the now is not stopping thinking, it is deactivating thoughts, then you stop following them and the timeline fades. There are levels of deactivation of thoughts, and what you want is to deactivate them completely for a while, for a moment at first, then for a longer time. How to do this is the question, since the self, which is made up of thoughts, is the one who wants to stop the thoughts. the door without a door, because whoever wants to go through the door is the door, a mess. 

For me at the beginning I had to use extreme violence: 5meo dmt. If not, impossible, because the line of thought goes deep and creates structures. It may seem silent but the structures continue if you believe in them. That's why even if you meditate and silence your mind, you are still limited. It is not a question of silence, but of deactivation. psychedelics help but do not guarantee it. It is something that I try every day, because it is a sensation of total liberation and life, it is the total end of the slightest shadow of dissatisfaction, it is complete plenitude, but achieving it is difficult and brief. 2 puffs of weed help a lot, more is a hindrance, and meditation in the sense of looking into the face of existence, making yourself totally aware of death, letting go of everything. Then the opening happens, and it's perfect. For now quite short, but yesterday for example I was alone in a park with my arms to the heaven and crying with all of my being absolute full, like I ve unlimited energy inside flowing through me, without a molecule of imperfection, perceiving the pure life. It's not a small achievement thinking that last year I was all time with shit in my mind. Not horrible shit, but always some. so I know that I'm in the good way , thats the real thing

Thank you.

[Ishanga]

@Princess Arabia

Time is not an illusion per say, I wouldn't put it that way.. There is Only Now, there is really no past and future, but there is memory and imagination, and the Mind is super attached to these two things, it draws from them considerably for the avg person living the avg day to day, work, sleep, reproduce, family then die sort of life... Only for those that Strive for it realize that Life is always Now, its a super Realization with Intense Awareness that the priority of Life is Now, not as a Thought or Teaching/Ideology, but true Realization..

You still use the Memory to become Wise from and the Imagination to plan things out, you need these faculties if You are here and have a Body and Mind to Use, if You isolate and become a hermit you can drop those things and just live within Your Inner Awareness...

All of it is REAL, its is just that it is not what we think it is, Thoughts are Real, Emotions are Real, Body is Real, its just these things are limited and not exactly as we think it is, once You become Realized then You will know, no one can tell You what it is, You have to experience it for Yourself...

[Princess Arabia]

2 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

@Princess Arabia

Time is not an illusion per say, I wouldn't put it that way.. There is Only Now, there is really no past and future, but there is memory and imagination, and the Mind is super attached to these two things, it draws from them considerably for the avg person living the avg day to day, work, sleep, reproduce, family then die sort of life... Only for those that Strive for it realize that Life is always Now, its a super Realization with Intense Awareness that the priority of Life is Now, not as a Thought or Teaching/Ideology, but true Realization..

You still use the Memory to become Wise from and the Imagination to plan things out, you need these faculties if You are here and have a Body and Mind to Use, if You isolate and become a hermit you can drop those things and just live within Your Inner Awareness...

All of it is REAL, its is just that it is not what we think it is, Thoughts are Real, Emotions are Real, Body is Real, its just these things are limited and not exactly as we think it is, once You become Realized then You will know, no one can tell You what it is, You have to experience it for Yourself...

Ok thank you.

[Juan]

5 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

Leo has said in his videos that there is no difference between me and a coffee table, so how is there a real difference here in awakening versus not being awake and isn't that also an appearance as opposed to what really is the case.

Some of these concepts are understandable BEYOND the logic mind. I wouldn’t understand many of Leo’s teachings without the help of psychedelics. I think @Osaid explained quite well, and even if it was understandable by word, language could be also a barrier in order to really understand and experience what is being explained, so experience will always be king for me. 

[Danioover9000]

@Juan

26 minutes ago, Juan said:

Some of these concepts are understandable BEYOND the logic mind. I wouldn’t understand many of Leo’s teachings without the help of psychedelics. I think @Osaid explained quite well, and even if it was understandable by word, language could be also a barrier in order to really understand and experience what is being explained, so experience will always be king for me. 

   I think you and a few users here are closer to answering OP's question of if time is an illusion, how is awakening real on an existential level?

   The answer is simple: Look at how Tik Tok distorts reality and time, by removing objective markers that demarcates passage of time. By removing objective measures of time the user gets a distorted experience of passing time, too engrossed and attentive to hyper stimuli of a Tik Tok video. And the more a user overuses and overconsumes Tik Tok, the less time spent on reading, researching, contemplation, meditation, other spiritual practices, Self help and NLP and many other practices that are more active in helping.

   The answer is nearly so obvious a minor awakening or an illumination experience could occur.

Edited February 16 by Danioover9000

[Hojo]

Past and future aren't real, we can see that clearly, so what is time without those 2 things? Time relies on a fiction to exist.Its just a prediction mechanism for survival.

Edited February 16 by Hojo

[Danioover9000]

@Hojo

4 minutes ago, Hojo said:

Past and future aren't real, we can see that clearly, so what is time without those 2 things? Time relies on a fiction to exist.

   And simultaneously time is useful and objective, not just pureky subjective. For example cooking time is important, not too early or meat would be undercooked, but not too long or meat is over welldone. Same with oven and microwave time, or time markers on your computer, phone, watch, to keep in touch with your next appointment or know when you're early or late.

[Hojo]

8 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Hojo

   And simultaneously time is useful and objective, not just pureky subjective. For example cooking time is important, not too early or meat would be undercooked, but not too long or meat is over welldone. Same with oven and microwave time, or time markers on your computer, phone, watch, to keep in touch with your next appointment or know when you're early or late.

Yea i edited my post time is prediction mechanism for survival, like ego. I think anyway but I see in hinduism it is a God so maybe not.

I see ego is not a God so it must be before ego and more powerful.

 

In Vedāntic literature, this antaḥkaraṇa (internal organ) is organised into four parts:[3][4]

ahaṃkāra (ego)—identifies the Atman (self) with the body as 'I'. The attachment or identification of the ego, also known as the 'I-maker'.

buddhi (intellect)—the decision-making part of the mind. The part that is able to discern truth from falsehood and thereby to make wisdom possible.

manas (mind)—the lower, rational part of the mind that connects with the external world, and controls sankalpa (will or resolution). It is also the faculty of doubt and volition; seat of desire and governor of sensory and motor organs.

chitta (memory)—the consciousness where impressions, memories and experiences are stored; the part that deals with remembering and forgetting.

There are three states of consciousness:[5]

jāgrat—waking state

svapna—dream state

suśupti—deep sleep state[6]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antahkarana

Edited February 16 by Hojo

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

10 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

Alone implies other. You can only be alone if there are others. 

Ding ding ding ding ding!

[Razard86]

On 2/15/2024 at 3:53 PM, Princess Arabia said:

How can there be a process to become Awakened or Enlightened if time doesn't exist. If time is an illusion, and we say we are doing things to awaken and doing Spiritual practices to awaken, aren't those futile. I'm not saying one shouldn't do practices or meditate or whatever it is that we do, but I'm just wondering how is it possible to achieve something as awakening if it isn't already the case.

I understand that Reality appears in a linear fashion in order for us to make sense of it; but it is only an appearance. We also say on an existential level there is no difference between anything and it's only the mind that makes these distinctions and it's all One. Where is the existential division between someone who is awake and someone who is not. Isn't that just mind and thought. I also put enlightenment in this category as it is said they are two separate things. 

Leo has said in his videos that there is no difference between me and a coffee table, so how is there a real difference here in awakening versus not being awake and isn't that also an appearance as opposed to what really is the case. Creation is already finished, and what is just is. We are only drawing from this Infinite field of Infinite possibilities experiences that are aligned with our states of being, so to become awake one has to be in alignment to have that experience of being awake; but since Enlightenment is not an experience how is it possible that some are and some aren't.

There is potentiality and actuality. God created time for actuality, to experience the actuality of the potentiality. So the answer is always going to be IT IS, an ISN'T. So there isn't time, but there is time. Time exists because you have a finite form. The purpose of awakening is to become aware of what you originally thought = ISN'T but actually IS. 

Before awakening you didn't know that time doesn't exist, before awakening you didn't know that you are the source of everything, before awakening you didn't know that you created your human self and are currently generating it consistently. You didn't know that you are Love and Truth, and Pure Creativity. 

You wiped it all away to be a particular creation, and when the time is right you remember. Awakening is a surprise present you give yourself. That's the purpose, you give yourself limited love, to eventually give yourself unlimited love. And that's all folks. We just ruined the surprise by telling you this, but only slightly. Experiencing it is much better than reading about it and hearing about it.

[Theplay]

@Princess Arabia When you realize what you are you don't become something you were not before.

You were always your true Self.

As @Davino  put it very nicely you just were not conscious of it.

Leo said in one of his videos that the bad news is there actually no process that can get you enlightened.

You can only increase the possibility. (quite dramatically in my experience)

For me time is just a way to view motion.

That's why the faster you move time slows down.

There is a deep connection between the two.

So I think time dose exist since motion exists.

 

[Princess Arabia]

You guys have completely ignored the fact that I said on an existential level. @Theplayyou are speaking in a dual and non-dual way. You say you have always been the Self and say time exist because of motion. All you're saying is correct but the Self does not experience time and have never moved a day in it's life. Time doesn't exist for the Absolute it is appearing within the Absolute. It's an appearance. 

The true Self doesn't need to Awaken as it is already awake, and that is my true nature. So, we are just going through processes and going through time to try to reach something that is already here. Awakening is also an illusion since time is an illusion. It's just part of the play. It has always been the case in the Absolute sense. 

 

[Princess Arabia]

3 hours ago, Razard86 said:

There is potentiality and actuality. God created time for actuality, to experience the actuality of the potentiality. So the answer is always going to be IT IS, an ISN'T. So there isn't time, but there is time. Time exists because you have a finite form. The purpose of awakening is to become aware of what you originally thought = ISN'T but actually IS. 

Before awakening you didn't know that time doesn't exist, before awakening you didn't know that you are the source of everything, before awakening you didn't know that you created your human self and are currently generating it consistently. You didn't know that you are Love and Truth, and Pure Creativity. 

You wiped it all away to be a particular creation, and when the time is right you remember. Awakening is a surprise present you give yourself. That's the purpose, you give yourself limited love, to eventually give yourself unlimited love. And that's all folks. We just ruined the surprise by telling you this, but only slightly. Experiencing it is much better than reading about it and hearing about it.

Yes, I get all that, but as I said in my heading, that it's all just a play within consciousness as in the Absolute sense all is already Awake just as I am already everything, I'm just playing a part to experience part of All there is. So this surprise I gave to myself is just a part of the play so on an existential level or in the Absolute sense we are all already Awake. I don't need to call my self awake to recognize that time doesn't exist. Just look at the time zones. See how time can seem to go faster at times and at other times drag on for eternity depending on what you're doing. I have come to the understanding that I am the source of everything because of all the diving I've done and the lessons I've learnt about who i am, not because of some awakening that told me so. I have put the pieces together to come to this realization and it makes sense because of the other puzzle pieces.

I am also seeing, through the illusion of time, how i'm creating this character, how It is all aligning perfectly, how its all a thread I'm weaving together to fit perfectly into this world I'm creating and how my biases, beliefs and all that stuff has to fit in and how they are just concoctions of the mind with no validity or truth to them. I'm seeing through all that not because I've had this awakening but from learning how shit works like survival, paradigms, identities, the mind, fear, contents VS structure, all of it. I'm also seeing through "others" and how I've created them to fit into my scheme of things how ilve been able to act as if i'm the one doing anything when I'm not doing jack shit, its just a story playing itself out for this character I've chosen. It's all just fucking obvious. There's no point of awakening, its just a matter of observing and becoming aware.

[Razard86]

1 hour ago, Princess Arabia said:

Yes, I get all that, but as I said in my heading, that it's all just a play within consciousness as in the Absolute sense all is already Awake just as I am already everything, I'm just playing a part to experience part of All there is. So this surprise I gave to myself is just a part of the play so on an existential level or in the Absolute sense we are all already Awake. I don't need to call my self awake to recognize that time doesn't exist. Just look at the time zones. See how time can seem to go faster at times and at other times drag on for eternity depending on what you're doing. I have come to the understanding that I am the source of everything because of all the diving I've done and the lessons I've learnt about who i am, not because of some awakening that told me so. I have put the pieces together to come to this realization and it makes sense because of the other puzzle pieces.

I am also seeing, through the illusion of time, how i'm creating this character, how It is all aligning perfectly, how its all a thread I'm weaving together to fit perfectly into this world I'm creating and how my biases, beliefs and all that stuff has to fit in and how they are just concoctions of the mind with no validity or truth to them. I'm seeing through all that not because I've had this awakening but from learning how shit works like survival, paradigms, identities, the mind, fear, contents VS structure, all of it. I'm also seeing through "others" and how I've created them to fit into my scheme of things how ilve been able to act as if i'm the one doing anything when I'm not doing jack shit, its just a story playing itself out for this character I've chosen. It's all just fucking obvious. There's no point of awakening, its just a matter of observing and becoming aware.

Oh there is a point to awakening, but you have to experience it to understand it. I can tell you about a human, you can even live among them and understand them intellectually, but it is totally different if I MADE YOU A HUMAN. Awakening is like that, you BECOME fully the creator. Then you will absolutely know. So there is a point to it all. You can talk about the absolute, or you can awaken and BE THE ABSOLUTE. When you are in a non-awakened state you are the relative part of the Absolute.

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

Yes, I get all that, but as I said in my heading, that it's all just a play within consciousness as in the Absolute sense all is already Awake just as I am already everything, I'm just playing a part to experience part of All there is.

That there is no time is a lie. The cosmos is perpetual movement that never stops, cycles within cycles infinitely, that is time. There is evolution, and opening comes at a certain moment in evolution. If there is a total opening you realize the basis of reality, the unthinkable, the limitless emptiness, you realize that what reality is is simply depth, and that is total liberation, but that does not mean that  You are not in a time cycle. You can think that everything is a dream but that is nonsense, the cosmos is, and is cyclical and temporary. 

Edited February 18 by Breakingthewall

[Yimpa]

Quote

If Time Is An Illusion, How Is Awakening Real On An Existential Level.

The existential level is also an illusion. 

[Princess Arabia]

1 minute ago, Razard86 said:

Oh there is a point to awakening, but you have to experience it to understand it.

I didn't say there is no point to Awakening, I said there's no point of Awakening. What I meant was, from point A to point B. Not as in there's no point, like useless, no I didn't mean that. But I'm still trying to see where, if that is already the case and time is a creation then Awakening is also a creation. I'm just probably over thinking and using my logical mind to try and reason this shit out. And I do understand the difference between intellectually analyzing and becoming or experiencing things for yourself. Which I have. I've seen through some of the stuff I've learnt and have seen how I've created this human character.