The significance of belonging (blew my mind)

[Carl-Richard]

I remember when I first got into Self-Determination Theory (SDT), it was the two factors "competence" and "autonomy" that made the most sense to me and that seemed to play into each other in a logical way. Firstly, SDT is a psychological model about three factors (or "needs") that create motivation in an organism, but to me, it's a much broader model about what makes a healthy organism. The three factors are "competence", "autonomy" and "belonging" ("relatedness").

"Competence" is the organism's need to exercise their innate capacities (and fulfill their evolutionary needs, either directly or by proxy): for example, a cheetah running to catch their prey, a bear catching salmon in a river, an amoeba following a trail of food, an Olympic spear thrower throwing their spear, or a musician playing their instrument. Expressing your competence feels inherently pleasurable, meaningful and valuable.

"Autonomy" is the psychological side of that. It's the organism's need to subjectively experience that they're able to be who they want to be, not what somebody else or something else wants them to be. This naturally leads to acting in a way that is consistent with their innate capacities, because your innate capacities is in a real sense who you truly are, thus expressing who you are (autonomy) will naturally involve expressing your innate capacities (competence). In other words, you naturally want to do what you're good at (or what you're "made to do").

When something interferes with the expression of your innate capacities (through "extrinsic motivation", e.g. being forced to play a music instrument as a kid), you tend to dislike it and experience less motivation, because innate/intrinsic motivation is the strongest kind of motivation there is, and again, to deny somebody's intrinsic motivation is to deny who they intrinsically are.

So those two factors seem to fit together quite nicely and in a logical way. Now, I've always struggled with how to make "belonging" belong to those other two. Here is a definition from Wikipedia: "Will to interact with, be connected to, and experience caring for others". It seems a bit odd and forced to be put in there, and it seems to only apply to indeed social animals. "Well, we need a social aspect in there as well, so why the hell not?". That's what I thought when I first learned about it. But of course, at least for social animals, it makes sense if you look at the fact that being social seems to be an important aspect of health and evolutionary fitness. But it doesn't seem to have the same level of logical connection to the other two factors, at least on the surface.

But just today when watching this video of John Vervaeke (requires membership to iai.tv), the pieces suddenly fell into place. He talked about belonging in this way:

We usually think of evolution as organisms being shaped by their environment to fit that environment (which again creates their innate capacities). But in reality, there is a co-creation going on: organisms also shape their environment ("niche construction"). In humans, this becomes very clear when looking at society and culture. It's essentially niche construction gone wild. It's when social animals come together and develop language, technology and other new ways of shaping their environment. The last part is the most important: we are each other's environment, and we're shaping each other. That is what being social means.

So what is belonging then? Belonging is when the innate capacities of the organism fit with the environment. There! It actually fits perfectly with the other two factors, and now it explains belonging both in a human social sense and a more general non-social sense:

• Why do you gain health, strength and love from being with your family (most likely)? Because you're most likely very similar. You share the same innate capacities, and you're therefore each other's well-fitted environment. You belong to each other.
• Why does sharing similar interests with your friends feel so fun and meaningful? Because you share similar capacities and act as each other's well-fitted environment, thus you belong to each other.
• Why does being deeply open and honest with your partner feel good? Because you act as each other's well-fitted environment and thus belong to each other.
• Why are you here, together with people who share the same interests, same life goals, same worldviews, same outlook on life? Because you belong here.
   
• And of course, even the amoeba can be said to belong to their environment if their environment best facilitates their innate capacities (e.g. just the right pH level, salinity, food availability). Again, it doesn't have to be just the social environment, but it's just that the social environment makes it really clear. And again, I really do appreciate how this definition ties all the way down to the base biological level, even unicellular organisms, just like the other two factors do (if we assume amoebas have a subjective experience, which you can argue they have). It shows the scientific and metaphysical depth of the theory (which you could say resonates with my innate capacities, or at least interests ).

 

What this has made clear for me (but which I've also intuited for a long time) is that I need to find environments where I belong, particularly occupationally and interpersonally, but also more generally. Finding your strengths, your passions, your dreams is one thing, but finding the environments that resonate with that is another. That requires effort and vision, unless you're lucky to already be in that environment. Maybe you have to create some of that environment yourself (like we've always done as organisms ), or maybe it's waiting for you somewhere. Whatever is the case for you, it's something to aim for.

It has also emphasized for me nuances like why there could be cases where it's reasonable to say leave your family, even though that would seems like a big loss on a social level, because you might just not belong there (e.g. it's a toxic environment for some reason). That said, I've never thought that leaving your family was an absolute no-no, but this new framing makes it even more clear why it's indeed not an absolute no-no. But of course, that shouldn't really be on most people's minds (I hope). It was just a thought related to some earlier discussion.

That's it  

Edited February 9 by Carl-Richard

[Rafael Thundercat]

Wow, very good. 

[Princess Arabia]

Environment plays a huge role in growth. The body also needs the proper environment to flourish. It's funny because the "belonging" aspect seem more applicable to me than even competence. But after reading this, I can see how competence can play a huge role also. So huge that I believe that's a big reason why a lot of us are depressed, anxious and unhappy; because we are not expressing our innate abilities. We have been stifled through the need to survive and working jobs and have stunted our growth as innate creators. We aren't expressing our gifts and displaying our talents and exercising what we're competent at naturally.

A sense of belonging, to me, is easier to achieve in today's society because of all the social networks and different clubs and places where different people with the same interest can physically go to meet up. I think we can sniff that out easily and fit in without too much pressure and work because of it being "ready-made". We don't normally have to build that from scratch, just find somewhere to fit in; while to express our competency requires more work. 

Edited February 8 by Princess Arabia

[Carl-Richard]

11 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

Environment plays a huge role in growth. The body also needs the proper environment to flourish. It's funny because the "belonging" aspect seem more applicable to me than even competence. But after reading this, I can see how competence can play a huge role also. So huge that I believe that's a big reason why a lot of us are depressed, anxious and unhappy; because we are not expressing our innate abilities. We have been stifled through the need to survive and working jobs and have stunted our growth as innate creators. We aren't expressing our gifts and displaying our talents and exercising what we're competent at naturally.

A sense of belonging, to me, is easier to achieve in today's society because of all the social networks and different clubs and places where different people with the same interest can physically go to meet up. I think we can sniff that out easily and fit in without too much pressure and work because of it being "ready-made". We don't normally have to build that from scratch, just find somewhere to fit in; while to express our competency requires more work. 

It's true that we have more opportunities to create a sense of belonging than ever before, but 1. it either doesn't seem like we're taking advantage of it, as loneliness is at an all time high in the West, or 2. we are taking advantage of it, but it's only creating a shallow sense of belonging, one that doesn't resonate deeply with our innate capacities.

For example, we may have hundreds of Facebook friends, but do they actually know you? Do you actually know them? Which interests do you share or have you actively shared with them? What kind of interactions do you have? Are they part of your environment in any meaningful way? Not to be crass, but it's similar with internet forums, YouTube comment sections, Instagram reels, etc. These are not generally deeply meaningful environments of authentic connection, not just because of their low attention span and information impoverished nature, but because they're online and often anonymous. There is no face-to-face, embodied, emotional connection, which is a part of our innate capacities as probably ALL humans to engage in these things. 

The type of vision I suggested at the bottom of my original post mostly alluded to finding places where I can express my intellectual, ethical and spiritual values and competencies which are individual to me as a person, but I also suggested actually in the same sentence that the same principle applies to all of what we can call human life, things that we all share. Whatever we call being human, that is what we have to cherish in some way. Some of those things require societal change, others you can manage yourself. You always start individually and maybe you can build a community (like Leo did here) that lays the groundwork for the larger change you want to see. But that again takes vision and effort, and maybe it takes sacrificing parts of yourself to something greater. But that can also be incredibly meaningful. Anyways, I'm rambling.

Edited February 8 by Carl-Richard

[universe]

Great topic.

Reminds me of this guy (who was also blown away by this)

https://www.actualized.org/insights/interview-with-cia-spy

Around the 1h30m mark.

 

I think it comes from us maybe sensing that we are imagining reality (us) and we look for others to validate our perception of reality (us). But I like your description of belonging as a universal force as well.

[Rafael Thundercat]

@Carl-Richard  Wow, sometimes I think the universe just hear our talks and suggest related topics to disscuss. This video came to me and rigth in the beggining you can see how it relate to the topic of competence and autonomy and belonguin 

 

[MarkKol]

Best topic created by @Carl-Richard

Humans strive to create environments where they can have a sense of patriotism.

Belonging is very clearly an important need for healthy existence, and starving people of their needs makes space for dysfunction, in some cases literal physical dysfunctions like ED.

 

[Rafael Thundercat]

 

MOAI – Connected for life

https://ikigai-accessories.com/moai-connected-for-life/

excerpt from the link:

MOAI – Mo•ai (/mo,eye/) Japan – connected for life

. Moai is the name for a lifelong group of friends that look out for one another.

MOAI, THE POWER OF DOING things together

Elders in Okinawa, Japan, one of the original blue zones longevity hotspots, live extraordinarily better and longer lives than almost anyone else in the world. 

‘Moai’ is a concept, from this region where people live much longer, happier and healthier than average.

Moai is the name for a lifelong group of friends that share their joys and troubles, a source of support essential to their health and wellbeing.

Moai, one of their longevity traditions, are social support groups that start in childhood and extend into the 100s. The term originated hundreds of years ago as a means of a village’s financial support system. Originally, moais were formed to pool the resources of an entire village for projects or public works.  If an individual needed capital to buy land or take care of an emergency, the only way was to pool money locally. Today the idea has expanded to become more of a social support network, a cultural tradition for built-in companionship.

In small neighborhoods across Okinawa, friends “meet for a common purpose” (sometimes daily and sometimes a couple days a week) to gossip, experience life, and to share advice and even financial assistance when needed. They call these groups their moai.

Traditionally, groups of about five young children were paired together and it’s then that they made a commitment to each other for life. As their second family, they would meet regularly with their moai for both work and play and to pool resources. Some moais have lasted over 90 years!

Members of the Moai make a monthly contribution to the group which is used for dinners, games, meetings or whatever hobby’s they have in common. Part of the funds are used to support members of the Moai that have financial difficulties. Having such a social safety net helps to prevent loneliness and maintain emotional and financial stability. The feeling of belonging and support gives the individuals a sense of security and helps increase life quality and expectancy.We believe in the power of Moai.

Studies reveal that close relationships, more than money or fame, are what keep people happy throughout their lives. Those ties protect people from life’s discontents, help to delay mental and physical decline, and are better predictors of long and happy lives than social class, IQ, or even genes. With everything from losing weight, quitting smoking, exercising, studying, the support of others allows us to stay engaged and achieve more powerful results. Group accountability helps us to show up, and enables us to turn lofty ambitions into consistent routines.

 We do not have this kind of social life in Europe, but perhaps we can learn from it and look around us at who we might be able to help socially. Because more and more people are lonely and simply need a helping hand in the form of a cosy gathering.

 

[UnbornTao]

Are you essentially referring to a form of suffering that might be identified as feeling unsettled?

Edited February 9 by UnbornTao

[Carl-Richard]

5 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Are you talking about feeling unsettled as a form of suffering, in short? Just to be clear.

What?

[puporing]

Mmhmm and that's how I found Heaven .

[Rafael Thundercat]

On 08/02/2024 at 1:48 AM, Carl-Richard said:

It has also emphasized for me nuances like why there could be cases where it's reasonable to say leave your family, even though that would seems like a big loss on a social level, because you might just not belong there (e.g. it's a toxic environment for some reason). That said, I've never thought that leaving your family was an absolute no-no, but this new framing makes it even more clear why it's indeed not an absolute no-no. But of course, that shouldn't really be on most people's minds (I hope). It was just a thought related to some earlier discussion.

sometimes we create very strong intellect as a coping mechanism to not dive deep into our fellings. To avoid where it hurts. The thing is, when a wound is not treated it dont vanish, it pesters. Yes, there are enviroments that are better to our brilhance, but never forgeting that wherever I go, I take myself with me , my guts, body and all the things it carries, included traumas.

 

[Jac067]

Interesting food.

Also explains why there are many forms of Cult.

[gettoefl]

belonging is two heads are better than one

to survive

[thenondualtankie]

Thanks for the writeup.

I've been thinking the same for myself recently: I need to create or find an ecosystem that promotes my growth and values. And this ecosystem inevitably involves community.

For a long time, much of my ecosystem has been browsing the internet all day. That's something that needs to be replaced.

What actions have you taken so far to create your desired ecosystem? What's your plan?

[UnbornTao]

14 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

What?

Rephrased it but never mind.

[Rafael Thundercat]

I think the easy way to create your own ecosystem is to create a community, not online, really in real life, a space where there are frequent meeting to share topics, drink something that dont involve alcool, have pre-planed topics that the participants will study during the weeek and bring their insigths. Almost like a book club but not necessarialy about reading a single book. Almost like a chuch but less the dogma and rituals that have non sense.  

Maybe the Websites Perspectiva, The Stoa and similar movements are a model for it. Something like a third place a Philosophy Club with defined rules of conviviality and a moderator do have some order or a guide leader. 

[Carl-Richard]

SDT in a nutshell:

Competence: you like to do things you're good at, because that is fun, pleasureable and enjoyable.

Autonomy: you like to do things by your own choosing, and if you're allowed to choose, you will tend to do the things you're good at.

Relatedness: you like to be in an environment that supports your competence and respects your autonomy.

Edited February 10 by Carl-Richard

[Carl-Richard]

On 9.2.2024 at 7:37 PM, Rafael Thundercat said:

I think the easy way to create your own ecosystem is to create a community, not online, really in real life, a space where there are frequent meeting to share topics, drink something that dont involve alcool, have pre-planed topics that the participants will study during the weeek and bring their insigths. Almost like a book club but not necessarialy about reading a single book. Almost like a chuch but less the dogma and rituals that have non sense.  

Maybe the Websites Perspectiva, The Stoa and similar movements are a model for it. Something like a third place a Philosophy Club with defined rules of conviviality and a moderator do have some order or a guide leader. 

For me personally, if not create something similar on my own, I would like to join something like the Essentia Foundation and contribute to some meaningful work there.

[Rafael Thundercat]

6 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

For me personally, if not create something similar on my own, I would like to join something like the Essentia Foundation and contribute to some meaningful work there.

There are come Christian Mystics Who do this think Called Contemplation Groups, based on the Original Way of Life of the People of the Desert, the Essenes and possibily The Zoroastrians and Sufis. Just Imagine, all we know about the people of the Desert is that they were not Involved with the Bullshit of the People of Babilon and other Warmongers of the past, if there are some Sane style of Commuinty to emulate from the past I would bet into the Schools os Mysteries and This Essenes and the Nazarenes.  

I was making a research on it sice some of my Hippie Ayahuasca Friend are always speaking about the Egipt and Godess  Isis and thing like this , but I rememeber reading in the Upanishads that for the Vedic Masters the Egiptians where people who lost their minds in adoring natural forces and idolatry, but Even before Egipt there was more simple people who could recognise the duality but still know the Unity of All, one of them was Zaratustra: look one of the prayers of this guy: 

""When I conceived of Thee, O Mazda, as the very First and the Last, as the most Adorable One.

as the Father of Good Thought, as the Creator of Truth and Right, as the Lord Judge of our

actions in life, then I made a place for Thee in my very eyes"-Yasna, 31-4. (Translation by D. J. Irani.)

Comparing with the sermon of  Meister Eckhart stated it in one of his sermons, “The eye with which I see God is the same eye with which God sees me: my eye and God’s eye are one eye, one seeing, one knowing and one love.”

So what this all have to do with building a Community of likeminded people and contemplation?

Here are some links to get some ideias :

https://cac.org/ Center for Action and Contemplation (cac.org)

https://cac.org/events/

https://awakeningsinc.org/ Awakenings | Connection Inclusiveness Love (awakeningsinc.org)

If you want to have fun to discover a bit of the Zoroastrian Heritage this very simple website is a golden mine. I suspect that this Guys are the decendents of the place called Gobekli-Tepe a place that is Older than even Egipt and maybe even older than Sumerians 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göbekli_Tepe

Why, is important all this. Well, the truth is. we are naturally communitary beings. We are ment to live together, commute and to conect in small groups with a simple living where people REALLY know each other personaly for a good period of time. Where there is initiation rites, the elders live with the teens and childen. 

This Worldwide Virtual Community is a Myth. It work because the Internet but without Internet we would be limited by our local Environment. Belonging to Nature and to each other.