“being vegan is more expensive than being a meat eater.” Is that true?

[Basman]

On 12/02/2024 at 1:46 PM, Jannes said:

A lot of these look very expensive and time consuming to make.

I don't think veganism lends itself well to practicality. If you live a fast paced and intensive lifestyle that requires a lot of calories then being vegan will be harder.

[Jannes]

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

It's super annoying and you know it.
If you are a man, you should eat at least the equivalent of 4 times this mixture, knowing that other foods/preparations are not as dense.

Which picture do you mean now? If you mean your picture I really do think that this one dish exceeds your daily calorie intake. And I have been trying to put on size on a plant based diet with massive meals, yet I have not eaten meals that big. If you mean my picture then double that amount is probably fitting. There are lots of veggies in there it's very realistic and not dense imo. 

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

Maybe, but your mind can be alienated in many ways, one way or the other, due to lifestyle and environmental influences in general.
What is not very plastic, however, is your digestive system.
Indeed, eating meat is already, to begin with, simply “technically” easier than eating legumes in large quantities.

Your gut adapts to different foods and it's not like you only eat legumes, you can also eat lots of starches. 

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

This is just the health argument, but if meat is bad or at least not necessary, well, why do you instinctively associate it with pleasure? 

That was my point. 

There are infinite ways to feel a lot of pleasure in bad/ unconscious ways. You can take party drugs, you can rape somebody, you can eat a whole cake, you can eat meat, ... that something feels pleasurable says nothing about if it is good or bad. 

Meat has lots of calories which is why our brain evolved to like the taste because that was good for our survival back in the day. Thats not an ethical position. 

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

Ethics is a purely relative notion, moreover ethics, morality and this type of notions are basically a theological taxonomy. Obviously this is denied but the need for devotion is an important part of the motivation to be vegan. It very often looks like an onion in the middle of the mouth.
At least religions bring you a little closer to God, supposedly, they're not just some random dogmas to cling to.

But coming back to ethics, honestly I don't care, I have no problem killing an animal to eat it. Just a question of habit.

I would make the point that yes ethics is relative and because of that it is human based/ favors humans and vegans actually try to make ehitcs less relative/ more universal to all beings. 

So I think your point is backwards. In a sense vegans dont try to make ethics more animal based, they try to make ethics less human based which simply results in the same outcome. 

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

Yes, but meat is the only natural food that tastes good, apart perhaps from nuts and a few fruits/tubers here and there.

I like all fruits, all nuts, many raw veggies and most starches and legumes in a cooked form. 

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

Is God trying to deceive you? eh eh

Of course. 

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

Yes

So what does that show?

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

Meat alone is good.
Raw fish is good, raw seafood is good, raw milk is good, raw animal fat is good...

Eventually, you may need to add a little salt to your steak, and the craving actually tends to decrease if you're on a carnivore diet, due to the lower potassium intake (I assume).

So yes, I can eat a whole 1kg steak almost raw without any problem even without salt, and you can eat the calorie equivalent of beans without condiments? 

Aren't you scared you won't get a heart attack from that amount of saturated fat in one go. 

Most days I enjoy one blend meal of just legumes and starch. For example whole grain rice and some red lentils with a bit of vegan butter. 150g of dry mass is easily eaten in 3 minutes and it tastes good. I dont know what eating 1kg of that in one go would proof because I dont eat meals that big. When I did intermitted fasting years ago I ate larger quantities tho. Actually for most of society being able to eat a lot of one thing is a con because it means that you can easily get fat from it.  

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

You can cook meet too.

Because it's a more efficient and enjoyable way to consume a lot of calories, rather than eating starch.

But it's vegan. 

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

Well, can you eat your oatmeal with a spoon like that?
And can you eat lots of sugar at once, not diluted with water but concentrated in the form of dates or bananas?

I can eat ots with cooked water it's called porridge. Admittedly without some sweetener like banana and some peanut butter it's a bit boring. 

I sometimes eat a whole package of dates all at once which is like 1000 kcal yes.

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

 My point is that for some reason your body doesn't like fructose in large amounts, and that's probably a reason not to consume large amounts of fruit.
It's not like if fruit, honey etc had nutrients that totally changed fructose metabolism, that would be crazy.

They do, it's called fiber. Nature is crazy like that.

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

Btw choline is the most effective nutrient for supporting hepatic metabolism, the main source of choline are animal products, especially eggs and organs.

True. There are plenty of vegan sources as well although they are not as good as the animal sources so you have to careful with that although most people are choline deficient. You can supplement it too. 

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

1)It's still almost half of what I have to consume each day.

Sure would double that amount be too much to eat for you?

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

2) These are well-prepared dishes that are edible without making a face. No one can eat like that most of the time you'll be with your can of beans and your banana lol.
I too can mix my urine with honey until it becomes quite good, that doesn't mean I'm inclined to urinotherapy.

Okay you have a point, it's hard to find boring/ realistic pictures of dishes on the internet. 

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

I'm sure you dream of a big steak, not overcooked, with butter. 

I really do find that a bit disgusting. I would rather eat a well made tofu omelette spring onion and dried tomatoes. 

[Jannes]

1 hour ago, Basman said:

A lot of these look very expensive and time consuming to make.

I don't think veganism lends itself well to practicality. If you live a fast paced and intensive lifestyle that requires a lot of calories then being vegan will be harder.

True your practical diet probably doesnt look as gorgeous. But there are still many many easy vegan meals you can make like oatmeal, bread with some vegan spread, fruits as a snack, you can do lots in an instant pot or rice cooker and many dishes that need small amounts of preparation. (its not like you dont need to cook meat as well). It just takes time to get used to new recipes. 

[Basman]

44 minutes ago, Jannes said:

True your practical diet probably doesnt look as gorgeous. But there are still many many easy vegan meals you can make like oatmeal, bread with some vegan spread, fruits as a snack, you can do lots in an instant pot or rice cooker and many dishes that need small amounts of preparation. (its not like you dont need to cook meat as well). It just takes time to get used to new recipes. 

True but aren't you sacrificing the food experience here to a certain degree. My general impression from when I was vegan for a short time was that you not only need to eat more but the food is generally more bland as well.

[Schizophonia]

21 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Which picture do you mean now? If you mean your picture I really do think that this one dish exceeds your daily calorie intake. And I have been trying to put on size on a plant based diet with massive meals, yet I have not eaten meals that big. If you mean my picture then double that amount is probably fitting. There are lots of veggies in there it's very realistic and not dense imo. 

In a realistic world you're more likely to end up eating what's in the photo I posted than yours. Unless you have a lot of free time and/or a personal chef.

21 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Your gut adapts to different foods

No never.
Unless you are a reptilian.

21 minutes ago, Jannes said:

and it's not like you only eat legumes, you can also eat lots of starches. 

It's just as boring if not more.

21 minutes ago, Jannes said:

There are infinite ways to feel a lot of pleasure in bad/ unconscious ways. You can take party drugs,

Humans did not evolve with drugs.

But humans were essentially carnivorous during most of the Peleolithic to the point of having genocided part of the fauna of the current Sahel.

21 minutes ago, Jannes said:

you can rape somebody

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with raping someone if you're sociopathic enough for it and you're prepared to possibly get beaten up with clubs by their loved ones.

But even there it is not a question of ethics.

21 minutes ago, Jannes said:

, you can eat a whole cake, you can eat meat, ... that something feels pleasurable says nothing about if it is good or bad. 

There is no right or wrong, it's just in your head.

21 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Meat has lots of calories which is why our brain evolved to like the taste because that was good for our survival back in the day. Thats not an ethical position. 

So why doesn't your brain like starches without condiments? Starches are actually more caloric than meat if it is lean enough.
Why don't you like raw kale? The fibers are fructose polymers, it is technically very caloric.
Or why not drink some of the essence, it's basically oil so it should be very nice.

For some reason, what you want most is meat, and that's what's most digestible.

21 minutes ago, Jannes said:

I would make the point that yes ethics is relative and because of that it is human based/ favors humans and vegans actually try to make ehitcs less relative/ more universal to all beings. 

“Universal” ideas which nevertheless come from their imagination...

21 minutes ago, Jannes said:

So I think your point is backwards. In a sense vegans dont try to make ethics more animal based, they try to make ethics less human based which simply results in the same outcome. 

Animals are not equal to humans.

In fact, no one has value in themselves, it is a value that comes from the subjectivity of a third party who can only be fundamentally selfish, no matter how much we tell ourselves stories about it.

We treat humans better not because of "speciesism idealism" or some twisted idea like that, but because the balance of libidinal forces between humans is too balanced and you can't harm other humans without taking serious risks, especially at this time.
Incidentally, you have more potential benefits from collaborating with other humans than by adopting a sociopathic attitude.

I hope I haven't gone too far, I think I've responded a little to the underlying ideas conveyed here

21 minutes ago, Jannes said:

I like all fruits, all nuts, many raw veggies and most starches and legumes in a cooked form. 

Most fruits and starches are recent and hybridized.

21 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Of course. 

Why would God try to fuck you? It's misanthropic.
All I saw, from my perspective, was that I always had the solution at hand and that I was being fooled by erroneous mental constructions.

It is a false devotion to seek to purify oneself through food, an eco+ and contre productive religion.

21 minutes ago, Jannes said:

So what does that show?

This means that as you yourself explained, there are very few animals that are entirely herbivorous.
And humans are the primates best adapted to a meat diet.

21 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Aren't you scared you won't get a heart attack from that amount of saturated fat in one go. 

There will be nothing.
Most long-time carnivore influencers are fine, if you want to take a little interest join Bart Kay's discord group.

21 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Most days I enjoy one blend meal of just legumes and starch. For example whole grain rice and some red lentils with a bit of vegan butter. 150g of dry mass is easily eaten in 3 minutes and it tastes good. I dont know what eating 1kg of that in one go would proof because I dont eat meals that big.

You will develop deficiencies, low muscle tone, poor thyroid function and have low testosterone levels if you eat like this all the time.

21 minutes ago, Jannes said:

When I did intermitted fasting years ago I ate larger quantities tho.

21 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Actually for most of society being able to eat a lot of one thing is a con because it means that you can easily get fat from it.  

It's okay to have a little fat.

21 minutes ago, Jannes said:

 

I can eat ots with cooked water it's called porridge. Admittedly without some sweetener like banana and some peanut butter it's a bit boring. 

21 minutes ago, Jannes said:

I sometimes eat a whole package of dates all at once which is like 1000 kcal yes.

It's disgusting.

21 minutes ago, Jannes said:

They do, it's called fiber. Nature is crazy like that.

This is false, fiber does not change fructose metabolism. At best this slows down absorption.

21 minutes ago, Jannes said:

True. There are plenty of vegan sources as well although they are not as good as the animal sources so you have to careful with that although most people are choline deficient. You can supplement it too. 

That's already an extra supplement, again 

21 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Sure would double that amount be too much to eat for you?

Yes. But once again I don't have a personal cook and a vegan diet will realistically be much more burdensome.

21 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Okay you have a point, it's hard to find boring/ realistic pictures of dishes on the internet. 

21 minutes ago, Jannes said:

I really do find that a bit disgusting. I would rather eat a well made tofu omelette spring onion and dried tomatoes. 

liar 

[Jannes]

15 minutes ago, Basman said:

True but aren't you sacrificing the food experience here to a certain degree. My general impression from when I was vegan for a short time was that you not only need to eat more but the food is generally more bland as well.

Generally it's a question of value. Do you value the benefits from eating animal products for yourself more, or do you want to make an ethical decision. Of course if veganism would be 100% as good as omnivores diets then everybody would do it, that's why it is an ethical decision, you do it against your own benefit. 

BUT veganism can still be very tasty if you try. 

[Schizophonia]

Ideal day  :

Breakfast -> 500ml of orange, gripe or cramberry juice.

Ideal day -> 100g weighed raw brown rice cooked under pressure with not much water, a 250g steak cooked in a little olive oil, a good tablespoon of raw crème fraîche in the middle.
Random baked vegetables (onions, garlic, peppers)
50g cashew nuts for dessert.

snack : 2 bigs bananas with 50cl goat kefir.

Diner : 6 eggs fried on duck fat.

 

Yum

 

[Jannes]

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

In a realistic world you're more likely to end up eating what's in the photo I posted than yours. Unless you have a lot of free time and/or a personal chef.

Maybe a 1/4 of the quantity at best, in a similar style yet still not as disgusting looking. That picture really is a work of art. 

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

No never.
Unless you are a reptilian.

True. I meant gut bacteria. 

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

It's just as boring if not more.

I like quinoa, whole grain rice, millet and sometimes other whole grains a lot. 

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Humans did not evolve with drugs.

But humans were essentially carnivorous during most of the Peleolithic to the point of having genocided part of the fauna of the current Sahel.

Chat Gpt says this when I asked it to proof your claim: 

"The claim that humans were essentially carnivorous during most of the Paleolithic period and genocided part of the fauna in the current Sahel region lacks strong scientific support and may be an exaggeration or misinterpretation of archaeological and anthropological evidence.

Dietary Analysis:

Studies on human dental and skeletal remains, as well as archaeological evidence, suggest that early humans had a varied diet that included both plant and animal foods. The development of tools for hunting and gathering plant-based foods is well-documented.

The analysis of dental morphology, stable isotopes, and wear patterns on teeth indicates that early humans had an omnivorous diet.

Archaeological Evidence:

Archaeological sites from the Paleolithic era often reveal a diverse range of artifacts, including tools for hunting and gathering both plant and animal resources. This implies that early humans were not solely reliant on hunting but also engaged in gathering activities.

Plant remains and seeds found at archaeological sites support the idea of a mixed diet that included fruits, vegetables, and grains.

Cultural Practices:

Evidence of early agricultural practices, such as the cultivation of plants, dates back to the Neolithic period, indicating a shift towards a more plant-based diet.

The development of cooking techniques likely contributed to making a wider range of foods, including plant-based ones, more palatable and digestible.

Genocide of Fauna:

The term "genocide" implies intentional and systematic destruction. While early humans certainly had an impact on local fauna through hunting, there is no evidence to suggest a deliberate, organized effort to wipe out entire species or engage in mass killings of animals.

It is crucial to approach such claims with a critical perspective and consider the current state of scientific knowledge. The evolution of human diets and interactions with the environment is complex and influenced by various factors. While early humans were undoubtedly hunters, evidence supports the idea that their diet was diverse and included a significant portion of plant-based foods. Additionally, the notion of humans genociding fauna lacks empirical support and may be an oversimplification of the complex interactions between humans and their environment."

-

One way or another it doesnt even really matter. We can digest meat and vegetables alike. So no matter what the diet back then was doesnt say what the best diet will be for us now. It's the "appeal to aught fallacy". 

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with raping someone if you're sociopathic enough for it and you're prepared to possibly get beaten up with clubs by their loved ones.

But even there it is not a question of ethics.

There is no right or wrong, it's just in your head.

Ultimately yes. But do you go about life acting like all ethics is subjective and therefore you can do whatever you want?

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

So why doesn't your brain like starches without condiments? Starches are actually more caloric than meat if it is lean enough.

Which is why bodybuilders who eat only chicken, rice and broccoli get sick of the chicken first before the rice. 

Fat is a flavor carrier. Rice with butter taste so good for example. 

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Why don't you like raw kale? The fibers are fructose polymers, it is technically very caloric.

kale is a bit to bitter for me but I love to eat a whole Romanian salat without anything. 

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Or why not drink some of the essence, it's basically oil so it should be very nice.

Ugh. I love green smoothies though. No joke they taste amazing. 

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

For some reason, what you want most is meat, and that's what's most digestible.

“Universal” ideas which nevertheless come from their imagination...

There are a lot of things I want to eat which taste good. Meat tastes good but it's far from the only thing. One of the most delicious things is a green smoothie bowl made out of frozen bananas and spinach. 

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Animals are not equal to humans.

In fact, no one has value in themselves, it is a value that comes from the subjectivity of a third party who can only be fundamentally selfish, no matter how much we tell ourselves stories about it.

We treat humans better not because of "speciesism idealism" or some twisted idea like that, but because the balance of libidinal forces between humans is too balanced and you can't harm other humans without taking serious risks, especially at this time.
Incidentally, you have more potential benefits from collaborating with other humans than by adopting a sociopathic attitude.

I hope I haven't gone too far, I think I've responded a little to the underlying ideas conveyed here

You have this idea that humans are basically completely selfish and every act of not selfishness is basically for ones own benefit so just a smart form of selfishness? And you should see and accept that, otherwise you are are a fool and a clown?

It's hard to argue against that position because it claims a universal truth.

It simply doesnt feel true to me, it seems more like a partial truth. 

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Most fruits and starches are recent and hybridized.

Which doesnt make them bad. 

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Why would God try to fuck you? It's misanthropic.
All I saw, from my perspective, was that I always had the solution at hand and that I was being fooled by erroneous mental constructions.

Interesting actually. 

How can you be sure though that you reached the core and not another mental construction?

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

It is a false devotion to seek to purify oneself through food, an eco+ and contre productive religion.

Thats not what veganism is. 

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

This means that as you yourself explained, there are very few animals that are entirely herbivorous.
And humans are the primates best adapted to a meat diet.

Probably yes. A subset of a total which is mostly herbivore hurray. 🥳

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

There will be nothing.
Most long-time carnivore influencers are fine, if you want to take a little interest join Bart Kay's discord group.

How old are they and for how long have they been at it? Heart problems become more of a serious issue if you are older. 

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

You will develop deficiencies, low muscle tone, poor thyroid function and have low testosterone levels if you eat like this all the time.

Haven't heard about that before. But I asked chat gpt again:

The claim that a vegan diet leads to deficiencies, low muscle tone, poor thyroid function, and low testosterone levels is not universally supported by scientific evidence. In fact, a well-planned vegan diet can provide all the necessary nutrients for optimal health. It is important to note that deficiencies and health issues can arise from an inadequately balanced diet, whether vegan or non-vegan.

Nutrient Adequacy:

A properly planned vegan diet can provide all essential nutrients, including protein, iron, calcium, vitamin B12, zinc, and omega-3 fatty acids. These nutrients can be obtained from plant-based sources or supplements.

It is crucial for vegans to be mindful of their nutritional intake, just as any individual should be, to ensure they meet their dietary needs.

Muscle Tone:

Adequate protein intake is essential for maintaining muscle mass and tone. Plant-based protein sources such as legumes, tofu, tempeh, and plant-based protein supplements can contribute to muscle health.

Vegan athletes and bodybuilders have demonstrated that it is possible to achieve and maintain optimal muscle tone and strength on a vegan diet.

Thyroid Function:

There is no inherent reason why a vegan diet would lead to poor thyroid function. Cruciferous vegetables, often cited for their potential impact on thyroid function due to goitrogenic compounds, are not problematic when consumed in reasonable amounts as part of a balanced diet.

Selenium, an essential mineral for thyroid health, can be obtained from plant-based sources such as nuts, seeds, and grains.

Testosterone Levels:

Limited evidence suggests that a vegan diet may have a neutral or even positive impact on testosterone levels. Diets rich in plant foods, especially those containing antioxidants and anti-inflammatory compounds, may support overall health, including hormonal balance.

Lifestyle factors such as exercise, stress management, and sufficient sleep also play significant roles in hormonal regulation.

It's important to emphasize that any diet, whether vegan or omnivorous, requires careful planning to ensure nutritional adequacy. Individuals, regardless of dietary choices, should be aware of their nutrient intake and consult with healthcare professionals or registered dietitians if concerns arise. Generalizations about health outcomes based solely on the adoption of a vegan diet can oversimplify a complex issue, as individual health depends on various factors beyond dietary choices.

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

It's okay to have a little fat.

Of course a little is fine. But once you are in the obese range it's a huge predictor for longevity and overall health. Everything is getting fucked up in your body if you are fat. 

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

🥳

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

It's disgusting.

Okay. 

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

This is false, fiber does not change fructose metabolism. At best this slows down absorption.

Which is important. I am no nutritionist but even the WHO say that fruit sugar in fruit is no problem:

"The WHO guideline does not refer to the sugars in fresh fruits and vegetables, and sugars naturally present in milk, because there is no reported evidence of adverse effects of consuming these sugars."

Source: https://www.who.int/news/item/04-03-2015-who-calls-on-countries-to-reduce-sugars-intake-among-adults-and-children

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

That's already an extra supplement, again 

1) You can do it without supplements, you just have to be pretty clean with your diet to get enough choline. 

2) What's fundamentally wrong with supplements? I take one multivitamin a day (although I am vegetarian) and some omega 3 its easy. 

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Yes.

Damn. 

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

But once again I don't have a personal cook and a vegan diet will realistically be much more burdensome.

You have to develop strategies to make it less of a burden which takes time when you are not used to it. 

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

 

liar 

Honestly I would be interested to try some meat out again, simply because I haven't allowed it myself and not really for the taste. Once I went from vegan to vegetarian I was so hyped to taste milk and eggs again but they got boring real quick. Taste wise I haven't missed too much. I sometimes go months without eggs though (still lots of milk) so if there would be anything special in eggs as an animal product (which is not in milk) my body would make cravings for it right? I have pretty much none whatsoever. 

[Basman]

21 hours ago, Jannes said:

Generally it's a question of value. Do you value the benefits from eating animal products for yourself more, or do you want to make an ethical decision. Of course if veganism would be 100% as good as omnivores diets then everybody would do it, that's why it is an ethical decision, you do it against your own benefit. 

BUT veganism can still be very tasty if you try. 

No wonder veganism never caught on outside of certain circles. Don't see that it ever will unless there are fundamental changes in food production, what we produce with technology, far in the future maybe (will it even need to be distinguished as a particular diet at that point?).

But that pretty much puts a hole in the idea that humans are meant to be vegan or that veganism is an inherently superior diet. You need to be ideologically inclined to sustain a diet that makes life harder outside of pure health reasons (like allergies).

[Jannes]

7 minutes ago, Basman said:

No wonder veganism never caught on outside of certain circles. Don't see that it ever will unless there are fundamental changes in food production, what we produce with technology, far in the future maybe (will it even need to be distinguished as a particular diet at that point?).

You could make a 1 to 1 switch with lots of mock meat, that just wouldn't be very healthy. 

7 minutes ago, Basman said:

But that pretty much puts a hole in the idea that humans are meant to be vegan or that veganism is an inherently superior diet. You need to be ideologically inclined to sustain a diet that makes life harder outside of pure health reasons (like allergies).

If everybody was vegan it would be super easy of course. Thats by far the biggest reason. 

I wouldn't say that veganism is inherently superior, I would say it can be as good and most of its difficulties come from that you probably do it alone. 

[Basman]

40 minutes ago, Jannes said:

You could make a 1 to 1 switch with lots of mock meat, that just wouldn't be very healthy.

That is not the point.

41 minutes ago, Jannes said:

If everybody was vegan it would be super easy of course. Thats by far the biggest reason. 

I wouldn't say that veganism is inherently superior, I would say it can be as good and most of its difficulties come from that you probably do it alone. 

Of course, group osmosis will make any particular lifestyle easier if reflected. You have to ask then why doesn't veganism have a historical precedent? The fact is that a diet containing animal products is inherently more accessible both in terms of calories and taste.

Any example of veganism in human history up to this point have been motivated by an ideological inclination, like religion, rather than a bias for practical survival. The majority of humans throughout history have either been farmers or hunter-gatherers. Life is too hard to make it even harder.

You will never convince people of a diet like veganism without an ideological slant.

[Jannes]

On 17.2.2024 at 1:17 PM, Basman said:

Of course, group osmosis will make any particular lifestyle easier if reflected. You have to ask then why doesn't veganism have a historical precedent? The fact is that a diet containing animal products is inherently more accessible both in terms of calories and taste.

Any example of veganism in human history up to this point have been motivated by an ideological inclination, like religion, rather than a bias for practical survival. The majority of humans throughout history have either been farmers or hunter-gatherers. Life is too hard to make it even harder.

This has to be viewed in a more nuanced way. Yes historically there were no vegan diets but many of the diets back then (especially the ones with farmers) mostly contained a lot less meat. So you justify some but not the high amounts of meat consumption if you take tradition as your dogma. With increase in technology however there is even less of a reason to consume meat.  

On 17.2.2024 at 1:17 PM, Basman said:

You will never convince people of a diet like veganism without an ideological slant.

True veganism is built on ecological and ethical considerations for which it needs a certain ego development of people. Even if I wanted to loose weight I would still like to consume lean meats and low fat quark. However there are many selfish reasons in discovering more plant foods. Eating more Legumes, veggies and fruits has lots of health benefits. 

[Jannes]

Conveniently made red lentil quinoa paste in an instant pot:

75g of (dry mass) red lentils = 258 kcal, 45g of (dry mass) quinoa = 156 kcal, 20g of vegan butter = 142 kcal, a touch of vegetable broth. 

Makes 258 + 156 + 142 = 556 kcal. 

It does take a little getting used to looks wise but it does taste very good and is very healthy. It makes around 1/4 of my diet the other is more "normal" looking food. 

 

[Rigel]

On 2024-02-16 at 5:04 AM, Schizophonia said:

This is just the health argument, but if meat is bad or at least not necessary, well, why do you instinctively associate it with pleasure? 

That was my point. 

I associate cannabis with pleasure but I am no longer dumb enough to do it 3x a day at breakfast, lunch & dîner. Been there, done that.

I am not saying you should eat 10lbs of beans a day either by the way. Eat loads of stuff. Carnivore is non-sens. Veganism is also non-sens. And yes I do think unseasoned chickpeas taste amazing. You just like strawmaning. No one in their right mind would recommend you eat 2000 calories of chickpeas alone. That sounds disgusting. 2000 calories of raw steak alone sounds disgusting as well. Like can we not go to either extremes?

Also wtf is wrong with spices? Do you hate life? Why is your bench mark: "If you can't eat 10 pounds of the raw thing than you shouldn't eat it?" That makes zero sens to me.

[StarStruck]

On 8-2-2024 at 7:17 PM, Schizophonia said:

Plant based diet obviously costs less.
If you are willing to consume bean plasters daily and you have alien intestines.

Have you incorporated the costs for the vitamin pills, blood tests, and doctor appointments, health and hospital costs? I rather just a a fresh cut of beef than make all those costs and gobble up those services. Vegans are highly selfish people. That is what I have come to conclusion.

[Jason Actualization]

3 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Have you incorporated the costs for the vitamin pills, blood tests, and doctor appointments, health and hospital costs? I rather just a a fresh cut of beef than make all those costs and gobble up those services. Vegans are highly selfish people. That is what I have come to conclusion.

Beef is incredibly nutritious for humans, and yes that's right, one must consider the totality of the expenses they incur in light of a particular lifestyle. Vegans have the best of intentions, and if somehow selfish, are so inadvertently, but nevertheless I find admirable the intentionality with which they consume food. Over time, they will tend to reincorporate animal products and find for themself that omnivore is ultimately optimal.

[Schizophonia]

On 22/02/2024 at 1:12 PM, Rigel said:

I associate cannabis with pleasure but I am no longer dumb enough to do it 3x a day at breakfast, lunch & dîner. Been there, done that.

Cannabis is not something we evolved with.

On 22/02/2024 at 1:12 PM, Rigel said:

I am not saying you should eat 10lbs of beans a day either by the way. Eat loads of stuff. Carnivore is non-sens. Veganism is also non-sens.

You are the one who decided this in your head, it is a begging of principles.

On 22/02/2024 at 1:12 PM, Rigel said:

*And yes I do think unseasoned chickpeas taste amazing. You just like strawmaning.

No, you're lying, you're a mentalist.
It's relatively boring and you know it very well.

On 22/02/2024 at 1:12 PM, Rigel said:

No one in their right mind would recommend you eat 2000 calories of chickpeas alone. That sounds disgusting.

Yes but why.
It wasn't even really a pro-carnivore argument, just anti-vegan versus those claiming that humans evolved from starch.
Among other evidence of different natures (theoretical, archaeological, etc.)

On 22/02/2024 at 1:12 PM, Rigel said:

2000 calories of raw steak alone sounds disgusting as well.

That's basically the number of calories in a large 1kilo rib steak, and it's so disgusting that you can regularly find it in restaurants.

On 22/02/2024 at 1:12 PM, Rigel said:

Like can we not go to either extremes?

I didn't even say that anyone should miss out on anything, you do what you want with your life, I don't care. Btw, my own diet is varied.

On 22/02/2024 at 1:12 PM, Rigel said:

Also wtf is wrong with spices? Do you hate life? Why is your bench mark: "If you can't eat 10 pounds of the raw thing than you shouldn't eat it?" That makes zero sens to me.

I didn't say spices were a problem, I said you can't say a food was enjoyable if you rely primarily on condiments.

 

[BojackHorseman]

On 22/02/2024 at 10:38 PM, StarStruck said:

Have you incorporated the costs for the vitamin pills, blood tests, and doctor appointments, health and hospital costs? I rather just a a fresh cut of beef than make all those costs and gobble up those services. Vegans are highly selfish people. That is what I have come to conclusion.

What doctor and hospitals? Been vegetarian/vegan (half/half) for like 7 years and my blood test results are perfect.

The vitamin pills don't cost that much at all, really. I'm sure some steaks or meals with meat cost more than their vegan counterparts (not even counting things vegans don't eat like ice cream or cheese, in those cases I just chose something else that's usually cheaper and more healty) so that balances it out.

The only thing I'm not sure of is how expensive vegetables and meat substitutes or just tofu are expensive in the US. Where I live it's basically the same, if it's more expensive it's like a few cents I think.

 

The problem with this kind of discussion is that people are judging vegans as a tribe with ill intentions. Sure, some can be pushy and stubborn. But these kind of profiles exist in every category.
 

So, just facts, at least from where I stand :

- the vegan diet is a little bit harder (if you're invited and people didn't think it through, in which case I'll just eat the dairy and shut up once in a while), or going outside but in most cases basically everywhere you've got at least vegetarian menus nowadays.

- I'm in great health considering my age and I don't lack anything, the pills are really a few seconds to add to your tourine everyday

- I loved meat, but I'm honestly totally fine cooking vegan, I really don't feel like I'm missing on the world. I still eat good stuff, and you can do super lazy cooking too, or even vegan junk food if you want.

- My wallet is not bleeding more than anyone else's these days. But again, maybe veggies are crazily priced in the US
 

[Jason Actualization]

18 minutes ago, BojackHorseman said:

What doctor and hospitals? Been vegetarian/vegan (half/half) for like 7 years and my blood test results are perfect.

I'm curious if you happen to know what your total and free testosterone is, as well as SHGB?

Do you have a recent vitamin B12 level as well?

[BojackHorseman]

48 minutes ago, Jason Actualization said:

I'm curious if you happen to know what your total and free testosterone is, as well as SHGB?

Do you have a recent vitamin B12 level as well?

B12 levels (from a year ago, so around 5-6 years in my vegan diet) was...above average level, surprisingly. I do take supplements so this should be just fine.

 

As for the other 2, they weren't in the report

I don't know about SHGB, but looking at the symptoms of low testosterone, I honestly don't see any, besides depression, but I've been depressed on and off since I was 18 or so, and I'm 43 now. So the diet is certainly not guilty here, and I don't think it really got worse. I'll see if I can do those tests tho

Edited March 16 by BojackHorseman