why don't incels just hire a dating coach ?

[bebotalk]

Dating coaches can help people, certainly. But then one should shop around. The best ones rely on how the actual dating market is and dont' sell crappy or concocted "theories" of dating. If using Youtubers as a guide, then somebody like Courtney Ryan is way better than Fresh and Fit. Fresh and Fit just tell young guys "be rich and get babes! Be Muslim and fuck babes when Allah Himself said it's wrong!!" when most people aren't rich and date well enough. 

[BlueOak]

No better teacher than just trial and error.

On this topic, is nobody going to mention money?
Doing a brief search now i've seen people say from 60 to 400 dollars an hour.

If you've got money you are naturally more attractive anyway. I don't want to debate this, and I don't like it either, but it's the truth for guys like charisma or being 6ft 5, being in good shape, being healthy/attractive, being funny, etc.  The chances are you won't need the coach if you can afford one. Same with therapists, the people that need them most can't afford them and so don't get to a functional state to afford them. 

Edited February 4 by BlueOak

[bebotalk]

money doesn't correlate with wealth.  not always. A lot of people who hire dating coaches have money but lack  dating success.  your point with therapists is moot, as this can apply to any specialist medical service. 

Edited February 4 by bebotalk

[Consept]

1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

On this topic, is nobody going to mention money?
Doing a brief search now i've seen people say from 60 to 400 dollars an hour.

I don't think money is really a factor with incels. What stops incels, and others with similar mindsets, is that they just don't believe improvement is possible. Their whole ideology is based around them being doomed by things out of their control, mainly their looks. If they do have a lot of money they're more likely to spend it on plastic surgery rather than coaching or self improvement. 

To learn anything you have to have the mindset that you can do it, same with therapy. You have to believe that you can improve your depressed state otherwise there is no way you will go to therapy. Conversely, if you do believe that it's possible, nothing will stop you, even not having enough resources. If you really thought it was possible to improve your dating life you would do everything in your power to make it happen, even if that meant volunteering with one of them to learn from them. So the hurdle is always your belief and mindset. 

[Porphyry Fedotov]

That's kinda hilarious tbh. You don't need to hire a coach or make 1000 approaches to get laid, that's ridiculous. You can simply have sex with a hooker, which is easy af. I think in reality incels don't want to have sex, they want to wallow in their victim mentality and learned helplessness.
Very good video on the topic:

 

[Majed]

@Leo Gura can it be helpful though? like a dating coach can motivate you to go out and socialize 

[Schizophonia]

Because they are ashamed.

Attention Lacanian psychoanalysis 101:

The main reason why people are excessively inhibited and fragile is that they serve as substitute phallus for their parents, those around them in general, and especially for their mother.
It is most often an Oedipal situation, where the mother-son relationship is excessive and pushes the son to put his anxiety of symbolic castration into denial to please his mother.

By agreeing to be coached, they put themselves in a "feminine" position and can therefore "paradoxically" use the coach as a phallus of substitution and therefore constitute one in the process, which causes guilt.

Pictorial example:
Parents excessively use their son as a substitute phallus as a means of regulating their own castration anxiety, castrating their son in turn.

The boy becomes inhibited, rigid, obsessive, with gravitations around tastes in clothing, music, etc. and "feminine" aesthetic postures unconsciously recalling the need to be filled with a phalus (need to "purify" oneself, to order oneself according to a certain system of rigid values...).
Tendency to simply ruminate, unconsciously assuming being the phallus. (castrated)

-If the young adult goes to see a sex coach then:
Positive point, he frees himself from his "natural" posture of substitute phallus, and finally develops his own phallus using that of the coach.
He stops going in circles, and is filled with the coach's energy to fuck the chick.

Negative point, possible guilt, unconscious shame of no longer being phalic.
You are not a means of shining by substitution for your parents and your environment, but on the contrary one who shines by substitution by filling yourself in turn with the phallus of other men and generally more powerful hierarchical structures, "masculinizing yourself". " in turn.

For French speakers or those who have the courage to use subtitles :

 

Psychoanalysis aside, I notice myself that if I let myself go one day to listen to a lot of very feminine music, to devote myself to others (like cooking for them) and enjoy compliments, to dress in a more flirtatious way (put bracelets...), my voice becomes more serious, I am more confident, funnier and my sexual fantasies become much more dominant, I want to be pleased with blowjobs etc.
I think I could get even more effective results with meditative, yogic practices, and even (I wouldn't do it for obvious reasons lol) being sexually dominated by a domina escort, anal fucked, or that sort of thing. .

On the contrary, if I play the cold and masculine (phalic) cynic for too long I will be more insecure, I want to be more sexually submissive and above all I have fantasies which clearly evoke the desire to use the woman as a phallus in turn. , like imagining that she wants and needs me (as a tool, an object) to have a child.

[Schizophonia]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

A dating coach will not get you laid.

You don't necessarily need a coach to give you a plan at the gym either.

[Schizophonia]

Observing how Léo ultimately doesn't say much that is subversive or even useful in his video "What is maturity", it's a bit obvious 101 lol.

The most interesting thing and what you are watching for is that you fill yourself with his phallus and integrate it into your aura.
He looks at you (well, it's still a video, obviously) with a serious and accusatory tone while explaining to you how it's not good to procrastinate or whatever, I imagine that maybe it puts you in a slightly guilty mood if you're a wanker and/or a loser, but at the same time it boosts you, fills you up, and it's pleasant.

 

Edited February 4 by Schizophonia

[bebotalk]

40 minutes ago, Porphyry Fedotov said:

That's kinda hilarious tbh. You don't need to hire a coach or make 1000 approaches to get laid, that's ridiculous. You can simply have sex with a hooker, which is easy af. I think in reality incels don't want to have sex, they want to wallow in their victim mentality and learned helplessness.
Very good video on the topic:

 

That won't solve their problem. THey don't want just sex but relationships. 

 

[bebotalk]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

A dating coach will not get you laid.

A dating coach can help a person be in the right frame to get laid. 

[BlueOak]

 

1 hour ago, Consept said:

I don't think money is really a factor with incels. What stops incels, and others with similar mindsets, is that they just don't believe improvement is possible. Their whole ideology is based around them being doomed by things out of their control, mainly their looks. If they do have a lot of money they're more likely to spend it on plastic surgery rather than coaching or self improvement. 

To learn anything you have to have the mindset that you can do it, same with therapy. You have to believe that you can improve your depressed state otherwise there is no way you will go to therapy. Conversely, if you do believe that it's possible, nothing will stop you, even not having enough resources. If you really thought it was possible to improve your dating life you would do everything in your power to make it happen, even if that meant volunteering with one of them to learn from them. So the hurdle is always your belief and mindset. 

@Consept
Do you not think the two mindsets are linked then? Feeling they can't get a girl, money or change their circumstance. Seems like it'd be an overall state of powerlessness. It doesn't have to be, I'm certain there are exceptions. You can't tell me though a rich guy doesn't get more opportunities or attraction from women, its just one more advantage of several that someone can have. Same with a tall guy, charming guy, good-looking guy, good listener, protective instinct, whatever.

Plenty in life is going to try to stop you or be an actual hurdle, and sometimes it will. Some hard facts of life don't change. No matter how much I want them to, As a 40-year-old, I'm never beating my 20-year-old self in sport, as a very easy example. I'm never going to change the world the way I want it to be, to work how I want it to work. Those hurdles will always exist, I have to work within it, with all it and my flaws, and do the best I can, that has limits both in me and the world.
 

2 hours ago, bebotalk said:

money doesn't correlate with wealth.  not always. A lot of people who hire dating coaches have money but lack  dating success.  your point with therapists is moot, as this can apply to any specialist medical service. 

@bebotalk
Wealth is required to have a sustainable amount of money for expenses.

On therapy. It is one of the defining factors as to why society doesn't improve collectively so it's not moot at all. The people that need the help, can't get it because they are not at a functional level to afford the extra expense. Ditto here on dating coaches, but there are many more free resources in that case, and its something you can just go out and practice for almost free. Healthcare it is much harder, more hit-and-miss, and more expensive to do it yourself, especially with the affecting handicap of a negative mental, physical, or emotional condition. As to healthcare being free, it depends on where you live. Here we get free medical treatment, but whereas we'll get fairly good physical therapy to a point, psychological therapy, and to a certain extent counseling is much more limited though you can sometimes find limited counseling locally.

Edited February 4 by BlueOak

[Consept]

54 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

Do you not think the two mindsets are linked then? Feeling they can't get a girl, money or change their circumstance. Seems like it'd be an overall state of powerlessness. It doesn't have to be, I'm certain there are exceptions. You can't tell me though a rich guy doesn't get more opportunities or attraction from women, its just one more advantage of several that someone can have. Same with a tall guy, charming guy, good-looking guy, good listener, protective instinct, whatever.

The mindsets can be linked, in that someone just might have a negative idea of life that they can't achieve anything and it's not worth trying and of course that can extend to several areas like financial etc. But it's also very possible that you can have a lot of money and still not be good with women, at best you could attract gold diggers who don't really like you but like what your money can do for them. 

Money is important because it can help you level up in different areas, have better clothes, work out, go to therapy etc but it's not a draw by itself. I'd actually put it quite low at of all the attributes that are attractive in of themselves, a homeless person with a lot of game and charisma could attract women, whereas a rich person who's awkward, has no game would definitely have a harder time. 

1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

Plenty in life is going to try to stop you or be an actual hurdle, and sometimes it will. Some hard facts of life don't change. No matter how much I want them to, As a 40-year-old, I'm never beating my 20-year-old self in sport, as a very easy example. I'm never going to change the world the way I want it to be, to work how I want it to work. Those hurdles will always exist, I have to work within it, with all it and my flaws, and do the best I can, that has limits both in me and the world.

Of course there are always hurdles whatever your situation, life is pretty much about getting over hurdles. But what happens with the incel mentality is they believe because there are hurdles what they want to do is not possible and then create a narrative, that they feel is science backed, to justify not even trying. The reality is they are scared to put themselves out there and risk rejection, getting over that fear is the first hurdle a d they are not willing to attempt to jump it. 

It's like if I want to learn guitar but I'm not good right away, so I start researching and find out people with my hand shape aren't guitarists or some other reason and then never try. Meanwhile there are people with one hand that are learning guitar somehow. 

[bebotalk]

2 hours ago, BlueOak said:

 

@Consept
Do you not think the two mindsets are linked then? Feeling they can't get a girl, money or change their circumstance. Seems like it'd be an overall state of powerlessness. It doesn't have to be, I'm certain there are exceptions. You can't tell me though a rich guy doesn't get more opportunities or attraction from women, its just one more advantage of several that someone can have. Same with a tall guy, charming guy, good-looking guy, good listener, protective instinct, whatever.

Plenty in life is going to try to stop you or be an actual hurdle, and sometimes it will. Some hard facts of life don't change. No matter how much I want them to, As a 40-year-old, I'm never beating my 20-year-old self in sport, as a very easy example. I'm never going to change the world the way I want it to be, to work how I want it to work. Those hurdles will always exist, I have to work within it, with all it and my flaws, and do the best I can, that has limits both in me and the world.
 

@bebotalk
Wealth is required to have a sustainable amount of money for expenses.

On therapy. It is one of the defining factors as to why society doesn't improve collectively so it's not moot at all. The people that need the help, can't get it because they are not at a functional level to afford the extra expense. Ditto here on dating coaches, but there are many more free resources in that case, and its something you can just go out and practice for almost free. Healthcare it is much harder, more hit-and-miss, and more expensive to do it yourself, especially with the affecting handicap of a negative mental, physical, or emotional condition. As to healthcare being free, it depends on where you live. Here we get free medical treatment, but whereas we'll get fairly good physical therapy to a point, psychological therapy, and to a certain extent counseling is much more limited though you can sometimes find limited counseling locally.

I disagree. It's not as bla k and white as that. 

[BlueOak]

@Consept

I appreciate your thoughts. Thank you. Next part is for everyone here, not you Consept I enjoyed your perspective.

It might be useful to improve this discussion with some nuance.

There are people who feel the outside world limits them, so it's looking externally for something that usually comes entirely from inside. Usually this is a way to excuse not to try, or create a narrative that makes you feel good about your own flaws, situation or limiting beliefs. Let's take an extreme to validate that this can still be true. You are in a war zone, relationships are not top priority. Maybe you are hungry, with no work nearby to give you money in your pocket to think about anything but just survival, a crippling survival issue, some external condition that needs to be satisfied first. Survival Needs > Relationships Needs. After that, it's showing people a way to get around their external problems, or them finding a way themselves.

There are people who choose not to be in a relationship and don't blame anyone/anything. They still might get labeled incels, but this is voluntary celibacy, or at least voluntary opting out of relationships, the term incel doesn't apply. There are many reasons someone might pick this.

Some people feel they are limited, not the outside world. There are many reasons why this might be correct, its lived experience. They are taking the responsibilities themselves for why they are incels, rather than looking externally. It's more a matter then of showing them how to move past these limitations, rather than telling them they don't exist. If you have facial scaring for example, a bad burn, you can visibly see someone may need a boost in confidence to get into dating. The same goes for the burn you can't see, whatever hindrance or issue is there is not shown outwardly, maybe a medical condition, chronic pain, crippling anxiety, depression etc.

In conclusion, and again this is to the entire thread. I hate it when people say X isn't real because you don't experience it. Unless it's your life experience you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

Edited February 4 by BlueOak

[Miguel1]

1. Dating coaches can only do so much. Most of the change must come from you.

2. For you to even be open-minded for dating coaches, you would have to do some quite painful acceptances of your own short-comings.

It is much easier to keep blaming and complaining to get the cheap dopamine

3. A lot of dating coaches either teach unhealthy stuff and / or are untrustworthy.

[Yimpa]

1 hour ago, Miguel1 said:

1. Dating coaches can only do so much. Most of the change must come from you.

2. For you to even be open-minded for dating coaches, you would have to do some quite painful acceptances of your own short-comings.

It is much easier to keep blaming and complaining to get the cheap dopamine

3. A lot of dating coaches either teach unhealthy stuff and / or are untrustworthy.

Replace the term “dating coach” with “therapist”. My partner and I are open to starting couple’s therapy soon. We’ve both been in abusive relationships in the past, but we don’t want to abuse each other. We both want to grow together and get insights as to how to communicate more effectively with each other 

[Emotionalmosquito]

23 hours ago, Porphyry Fedotov said:

You can simply have sex with a hooker, which is easy af

Not even that is easy. How do you expect to find one? Go knocking door to door asking? Ask around on the street? You can arrange something online, but remember, it’s illegal. You have to use your best judgment to avoid jail. Not one single thing about getting laid is easy

[Miguel1]

19 hours ago, Yimpa said:

Replace the term “dating coach” with “therapist”.

What are you trying to say with this?

19 hours ago, Yimpa said:

My partner and I are open to starting couple’s therapy soon. We’ve both been in abusive relationships in the past, but we don’t want to abuse each other. We both want to grow together and get insights as to how to communicate more effectively with each other 

That is great! Good to hear.

[Porphyry Fedotov]

5 hours ago, Emotionalmosquito said:

Not even that is easy. How do you expect to find one? Go knocking door to door asking? Ask around on the street? You can arrange something online, but remember, it’s illegal. You have to use your best judgment to avoid jail. Not one single thing about getting laid is easy

I guess it depends on where you live. Here, in Kazakhstan it's legal and you can simply go to a site, choose your city, girl, and call or message in WhatsApp. It's extremely cheap as well. But it's a third-world country. I bet things are a little bit different in the States and Western Europe.

Also even if it was illegal, so what? Pirating movies and ordering psychedelics on the dark web are illegal as well and here we are, doing all that.