Benefits of Enligthenment?

[Juan Cruz Giusto]

Thank you for taking the time! I understand that this phenomena it's beyond logic and the only way to explain it is to experience it myself!

[Pav]

11 hours ago, jip said:

Interesting topic... I think the main "benefit" is having a clear mind, but apart from that i don't really see why "you" would pursue enlightenment if you are not a hardcore truth-seeker.  Leo always says that it's impossible to be happy without being enlightened and the unenlightened life is a hell, but i don't really think that's completely true, at least not in my experience(or am i lying to myself right now?). I would say it's not so much of a holy grail as some people here make it out to be even though it will liberate you from "you", but unless you are not enjoying the dream that is life or can't stand maya anymore, why wake up? Everyone is gonna wake up eventually, so why rush it?

I think Leo idealises enlightenment too much. He claims that you can't be happy without it, but this is simply not true. Happiness, joy, passion, gratitude, love, enthusiasm for life, and contentment for the present moment are all things you can develop regardless of the state of your ego. They are the result of your thoughts, actions, and they way you choose to interpret the world and life. Leo says above that an enlightened person is "very grateful and at peace with whatever is happening and very in the present moment, and not acting all neurotic." These are things which are acquired by working on your cognition and behaviour. The overwhelming success of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy for treating depression shows how interrelated your thoughts, behaviour, and emotions are.

I agreed that an unhealthy ego can certainly cause problems, but you can alter your sense of self in such a way that it does not interfere in your happiness or personal development. 

 

I'm not sure if Brendan if enlightened or not but I've never seen him mention it, and he seems like someone full of joy, passion, and gratefulness.

It seems like a lot of enlightened people came from a situation of suffering, in which case I can see how enlightenment could bring peace. I can't say for certain, but I don't think becoming enlightened is going to make you happy in it self, I think they are going to have to put in the same efforts to acquire these mental states.

I think Leo's believe that you cannot be happy without enlightenment will prevent him from being happy.

I'm not sure what it means that you will gain truth from enlightenment, so I can't comment on that.

[WelcometoReality]

On 2/11/2016 at 3:11 PM, Mat Pav said:

It seems like a lot of enlightened people came from a situation of suffering, in which case I can see how enlightenment could bring peace. I can't say for certain, but I don't think becoming enlightened is going to make you happy in it self, I think they are going to have to put in the same efforts to acquire these mental states.

I think Leo's believe that you cannot be happy without enlightenment will prevent him from being happy.

I'm not sure what it means that you will gain truth from enlightenment, so I can't comment on that.

It does give joy, calm, silence. No efforts to achieve or drive from unsatisfactory. Just being is enough to be happy.

The egoic drive is based on not having enough or being enough. When you reach certain goals, sure you will be happy for a while but the happiness will come and go. That is the way the ego structure works, great for surviving in the wilds. Awful for finding everlasting happiness.

[Pav]

16 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

It does give joy, calm, silence. No efforts to achieve or drive from unsatisfactory. Just being is enough to be happy.

The egoic drive is based on not having enough or being enough. When you reach certain goals, sure you will be happy for a while but the happiness will come and go. That is the way the ego structure works, great for surviving in the wilds. Awful for finding everlasting happiness.

I'm not sure you would need to completely disillude the ego in order to switch to a state of being. From my own subjective experiences, it seems that being cognition comes from your mind set and thoughts, you can switch to a being mind set instantly. I can definitely see how many peoples egos can prevent them from reaching this state but that doesn't mean that it can only be reached without an ego. I may have a different understanding of the ego, but it seems like people are talking about two separate things; one being the last thought you identified yourself with, and the other being the feeling of separateness from the world (ie. the feeling of being an observers behind the eyes or the boundary of your skin). It seems that the first is what causes the egoic drive you mentioned, but this can be easily altered (or toned down) to the point where it no longer interferes with being-cognition and you can eliminate any drives based around no having enough. This can be done by altering you thoughts, since after all your idea of your self is just thoughts from what I can see. For example, thoughts of "I need to do this to acquire this (which will then validate my image of my self)" can be replaced by "I am going to do this because I love to do this (regardless of any external outcome and without striving to validate my idea of my self)". 

As for the second definition, I don't see how getting rid of this in it self with give happiness. Personally I don't think I feeling like I'm an observer behind the eyes any more, and as far as I can tell that hasn't changed my emotional state. I once had the experience where my boundary between my skin and the world dissolved, and no happiness came from that, literally the only thing that came from that was that I no longer had a sense of distinction between my body and the world (although I was on mushrooms at the time, so maybe the enlightenment experience is different). On the other hand I have felt an intense love for everything in the world and a feeling that the world is overwhelmingly beautiful and perfect just as it is. In this state nothing could affect me negatively, I could have died just then and I wouldn't have cared, no matter what happened everything was still perfect. But as far as I can remember I'm pretty sure I still had an ego in the times that this has happened (the distinction between my body and the world was still there and I still had ideas about my self).

I think experiences like the one I described above come from your underlying beliefs about the world/your thoughts (this is what created those beliefs). I do view the world as beautiful place and I think it is utterly absurd that I even get the chance to experience all this and I feel highly grateful for it, all I can really do is experience the little time I have as richly as I can and to impact other around me in a positive way. I think that the mental state mentioned earlier was the emotion associated with these beliefs being brought out much more intensely, and was not directly related to ego. Overall I would say that I am happy despite having an ego. There are occasions where I feel down, but this does not necessarily both me as much as it used to, I just see it as part of my life experience. It's thinking which can get me into a bad mood, but it's also thinking which gets me out of one and can also make me feel passionate, grateful, joy, and love. 

Maslow mentions in Toward a Psychology of Being that these people had the experience of self-transcendence more often (ie peak experiences, getting absorbed in your work, b-love). But I cannot recall him saying that these people had no ego or were enlightened. I think switching to a psychology of being is a complete shift in your perspective which is achieved through how you think. Instead of seeing people for what they can give you (love, affection, companionship, validation), you view them as they are and are capable of loving without seeking anything in return, you can love people for who they are, not for what they can give you. Instead of doing things because you are deficient in some area and looking to acquire the thing you lack, you can do things simply because you love to and you value those things for there own sake. I believe that this sort of shift is cause be changing the way you think and your beliefs about the world (and of cause your behaviour must be congruent with your thoughts, your brain will notice otherwise), and are not directly related to ego.

I think stopping your thoughts altogether will leave you in a calm and peaceful state. I can definitely see the value in entering this state frequently, personally I would like to experience a wide range of different state than just this one.

TD:LR My own experience has led me to believe that thoughts, emotions and behaviours are interrelated. There is some science to back this up; Coginitive Behavioural Therapy is highly effective in treating depression. I don't think must disillude the ego to be happy and I doubt the disilluding the ego in itself will necessarily make you happy, but I do see how thoughts relating to your self image can get in the way.

 

[Leo Gura]

On 2/11/2016 at 6:11 AM, Mat Pav said:

I think Leo idealises enlightenment too much. He claims that you can't be happy without it, but this is simply not true. Happiness, joy, passion, gratitude, love, enthusiasm for life, and contentment for the present moment are all things you can develop regardless of the state of your ego. They are the result of your thoughts, actions, and they way you choose to interpret the world and life. Leo says above that an enlightened person is "very grateful and at peace with whatever is happening and very in the present moment, and not acting all neurotic." These are things which are acquired by working on your cognition and behaviour. The overwhelming success of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy for treating depression shows how interrelated your thoughts, behaviour, and emotions are.

I agreed that an unhealthy ego can certainly cause problems, but you can alter your sense of self in such a way that it does not interfere in your happiness or personal development. 

 

I'm not sure if Brendan if enlightened or not but I've never seen him mention it, and he seems like someone full of joy, passion, and gratefulness.

It seems like a lot of enlightened people came from a situation of suffering, in which case I can see how enlightenment could bring peace. I can't say for certain, but I don't think becoming enlightened is going to make you happy in it self, I think they are going to have to put in the same efforts to acquire these mental states.

I think Leo's believe that you cannot be happy without enlightenment will prevent him from being happy.

I'm not sure what it means that you will gain truth from enlightenment, so I can't comment on that.

All lies!

There is no true happiness as long as you believe you exist as a separate self! Period. NOT POSSIBLE! EVAR!

Don't even try. I guarantee you will fail miserably no matter what techniques you use.

Don't let people fool you with their external displays of happiness and success. Deep down they are not happy. They are neurotic and in deep agony, struggling to find fulfillment within falsehood. And the worst part about it is, they are not conscious of any of it. They've actually succeeded -- for the time being -- to deceive themselves that they are happy.

This self-deception will be rudely interrupted soon enough. There's no escape other than enlightenment. Which is really not an escape but a head-on collision with this truth.

As cool as Brendon is, listening to him will not lead you to happiness. He's teaching you success, not happiness.

[Rufus]

On 2/7/2016 at 5:01 PM, Vincent Musanti said:

I wonder if enlightened people feel lonely and upset that everyone else around them is still stuck in the illusion.

At first it may look to you so sad how people are deluded, especially when you look at people at war, poverty and how the people around you are angry, serious, silly or suffering from different life aspects, in time your tears will turn into peaceful laughs, not because you are mean, but because you realized it's all a joke, you laugh with a great sense of love and compassion.

[Pav]

28 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

All lies!

There is no true happiness as long as you believe you exist as a separate self! Period. NOT POSSIBLE! EVAR!

Don't even try. I guarantee you will fail miserably no matter what techniques you use.

Don't let people fool you with their external displays of happiness and success. Deep down they are not happy. They are neurotic and in deep agony, struggling to find fulfillment within falsehood. And the worst part about it is, they are not conscious of any of it. They've actually succeeded -- for the time being -- to deceive themselves that they are happy.

This self-deception will be rudely interrupted soon enough. There's no escape other than enlightenment. Which is really not an escape but a head-on collision with this truth.

As cool as Brendon is, listening to him will not lead you to happiness. He's teaching you success, not happiness.

My emotional state is positive the majority of the time. I have passion and love for life and feel grateful for getting the chance to experience all this. I would say I'm happy. Maybe we don't define happiness in the same way?

Could you explain what true happiness is to you? And could you explain why you believe people can't be happy as a separate self?

It's quiet confusing when you say you can't be happy without enlightenment because it just doesn't fit in with my own experience.

[WelcometoReality]

2 hours ago, Mat Pav said:

TD:LR My own experience has led me to believe that thoughts, emotions and behaviours are interrelated. There is some science to back this up; Coginitive Behavioural Therapy is highly effective in treating depression. I don't think must disillude the ego to be happy and I doubt the disilluding the ego in itself will necessarily make you happy, but I do see how thoughts relating to your self image can get in the way.

 

It might be the way you think it is or it might be not the way you think it is. Trust your own experiences and accept that you don't know how things you haven't experienced is.

[jip]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

All lies!

There is no true happiness as long as you believe you exist as a separate self! Period. NOT POSSIBLE! EVAR!

Don't even try. I guarantee you will fail miserably no matter what techniques you use.

Don't let people fool you with their external displays of happiness and success. Deep down they are not happy. They are neurotic and in deep agony, struggling to find fulfillment within falsehood. And the worst part about it is, they are not conscious of any of it. They've actually succeeded -- for the time being -- to deceive themselves that they are happy.

This self-deception will be rudely interrupted soon enough. There's no escape other than enlightenment. Which is really not an escape but a head-on collision with this truth.

As cool as Brendon is, listening to him will not lead you to happiness. He's teaching you success, not happiness.

Why are you so dogmatic about your belief that you can't be happy without being enlightened? It's just a belief, and may or may not be true. You can't really know unless you are enlightened and even then you might deceive yourself. As much as you talk about breaking down beliefs and dogma, it seems to me like you are creating a lot of beliefs about enlightenment..

Also realize that preferring happiness over unhappiness or even truth over delusion is all ego-based.

[Pav]

2 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

It might be the way you think it is or it might be not the way you think it is. Trust your own experiences and accept that you don't know how things you haven't experienced is.

I agree there is no way for me to know currently know what it is like to be enlightened. My experimentations with hallucinogens have shown me just how unimaginably different altered states of conciousness can be.

I'm not against enlightenment or anything, I am very fascinated by it. I just want to provoke more discussion on the topic to learn more about it, because Leo's posts seem very dogmatic about it.

[WelcometoReality]

5 hours ago, Mat Pav said:

I agree there is no way for me to know currently know what it is like to be enlightened. My experimentations with hallucinogens have shown me just how unimaginably different altered states of conciousness can be.

I'm not against enlightenment or anything, I am very fascinated by it. I just want to provoke more discussion on the topic to learn more about it, because Leo's posts seem very dogmatic about it.

Sure I understand that your curious about it. And there is nothing wrong with discussing it. If you think it's fascinating it must be because you want to know the truth and you will never know the truth by discussing it, because discussion will only lead you to believe you know the truth. Investigate inside yourself and draw conclusions from direct experience. 

[Leo Gura]

11 hours ago, Mat Pav said:

My emotional state is positive the majority of the time. I have passion and love for life and feel grateful for getting the chance to experience all this. I would say I'm happy. Maybe we don't define happiness in the same way?

Could you explain what true happiness is to you? And could you explain why you believe people can't be happy as a separate self?

It's quiet confusing when you say you can't be happy without enlightenment because it just doesn't fit in with my own experience.

I have quite a few videos explaining this issue:

• What Is Happiness
• The Happiness Spectrum
• The Secret Curse of Being Human
• Enlightenment FAQ Part 1 & Part 2
• Etc

There is only one true type of happiness, and that is happiness unconditional of any external circumstances.

[Leo Gura]

8 hours ago, jip said:

Why are you so dogmatic about your belief that you can't be happy without being enlightened? It's just a belief

How the hell can you be happy when you:

1. You are unable to be present in the current moment
2. You are always chasing future goals
3. You actually believe you are going to die

You haven't become aware yet of just how deep your life's predicament is. The way you're living life right now is simply insane. It takes a while to become conscious of this though. Most people think they've got life figured out.

[jjer94]

Quote

There is only one true type of happiness, and that is happiness unconditional of any external circumstances.

Just as a heads-up to others: This is not to be confused with excitement. What often happens is that ego looks for happiness in excitement and then equates excitement with happiness. However excitement is just a fleeting emotional state. It won't last forever. The happiness Leo is talking about is more a kind of contentment/gratitude/sense of completeness regardless of external circumstances. You can still have highs and lows, excitements and depressions, but this sort of happiness is always there no matter what. By the way: you don't need to be enlightened to experience this sort of authentic happiness, although enlightenment will make it abiding.

"You can be happy in your anxiety. Isn’t that crazy? You can be happy in your depression. But you can’t have the wrong notion of happiness. Did you think happiness was excitement or thrills? That’s what causes the depression. Didn’t anyone tell you that? You’re thrilled, all right, but you’re just preparing the way for your next depression. You’re thrilled but you pick up the anxiety behind that: How can I make it last? That’s not happiness, that’s addiction." --Tony de Mello

Edited February 20, 2016 by jjer94

[Azrael]

On 6.2.2016 at 9:03 AM, jcgiusto said:

I sometimes wonder if what the world would look like if all the population is enlightened... just meditating? Would science exist, would dating exist? Is Truth the only point of the quest?

Such a nice question, dude!

I see it this way. If the whole population would be enlightened we would have a world with integrity. We would all have a party.  I picture people having a lot more fun, creating cool creative projects. Incarnating the possibilities that consciousness presents to you. I see politics having a great game, having some fun, but seeing it for what it really is.

I see some great art. Some great public discussions. Just think about what the mainstream press could be putting out there. New ideas to the world. Sharing new projects, new ways to see things.

In the end it comes all down to integrity. If you would have people around that share a kind of integrity the world wouldn't be ass frantic as it is today.

[vizual]

The question shouldn't be what the benefits of enlightenment are, the question should be what the drawbacks of having an ego are.

[jip]

48 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I have quite a few videos explaining this issue:

• What Is Happiness
• The Happiness Spectrum
• The Secret Curse of Being Human
• Enlightenment FAQ Part 1 & Part 2
• Etc

I've watched them all a couple of times, and i think they're really great. But still, all thats presented in those videos are stories/beliefs. It could very well be possible that you are right but also that you are wrong so i don't see the necessity to be so dogmatic about it. And the fact is that 99,99% of people are not going to be buddhas anyway so taking on such a belief will only make the dreamstate worse for them, and besides that it's just a sad way to look at the world/people. Based on my own experience i would say that happiness is possible within the dreamstate, but sure i could be deceiving myself and i also see that a lot of people are neurotic. But Leo, if you really believe the only thing we want in life is happiness and just being is the highest quality happiness, why are you even on this forum and not just meditating 24/7?

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

There is only one true type of happiness, and that is happiness unconditional of any external circumstances.

The body still needs to be alive though in order to have happiness?

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

How the hell can you be happy when you:

1. You are unable to be present in the current moment
2. You are always chasing future goals
3. You actually believe you are going to die

You haven't become aware yet of just how deep your life's predicament is. The way you're living life right now is simply insane. It takes a while to become conscious of this though. Most people think they've got life figured out.

Well, you seem to think so too..

[Ayla]

@jip , you seem to have such an attachment to your logic and reasoning, yet such a good egg! 

The questions you are asking yourself are great for a philosophy University, but they will not get you There. 

Get a little bit of humility, a spoonful of compassion, a sprinkle of love, mix them, drink up  

 Leave it, drop it, burn it... all this accumulated knowledge you seem to be attached to... look at it as if it was a big pile of luggage that's keeping you at bay. 

What is it that you really want? 

What is it that's wanting all that? 

 

[Galyna]

11 hours ago, jip said:

Why are you so dogmatic about your belief that you can't be happy without being enlightened? It's just a belief, and may or may not be true. You can't really know unless you are enlightened and even then you might deceive yourself. As much as you talk about breaking down beliefs and dogma, it seems to me like you are creating a lot of beliefs about enlightenment..

Also realize that preferring happiness over unhappiness or even truth over delusion is all ego-based.

I am very sorry for being rude, I do not want to hurt your feelings, but reading your comments makes me feel your aggression toward this whole topic, really. 

I am sorry!

But maybe something is bothering you on the deep level? what is it?

I just wonder who or what hurt you inside that you feel bad about Enlightenment? 

 

I am trying to be friendly. 

Edited February 20, 2016 by Galyna

[Galyna]

10 hours ago, Mat Pav said:

I agree there is no way for me to know currently know what it is like to be enlightened. My experimentations with hallucinogens have shown me just how unimaginably different altered states of conciousness can be.

I'm not against enlightenment or anything, I am very fascinated by it. I just want to provoke more discussion on the topic to learn more about it, because Leo's posts seem very dogmatic about it.

He is just passionate about it, that is all....Yeah, he might not be so laid back like other people who gained it already. But it is all good. It is just a part of his personality and he is not dogmatic at all. He mentions all the time not to trust his words, but do the job on your own. How can it be dogmatic? 

Edited February 20, 2016 by Galyna