Benefits of Enligthenment?

[jip]

1 hour ago, Ayla said:

@jip , you seem to have such an attachment to your logic and reasoning, yet such a good egg! 

The questions you are asking yourself are great for a philosophy University, but they will not get you There. 

Get a little bit of humility, a spoonful of compassion, a sprinkle of love, mix them, drink up  

 Leave it, drop it, burn it... all this accumulated knowledge you seem to be attached to... look at it as if it was a big pile of luggage that's keeping you at bay. 

What is it that you really want? 

What is it that's wanting all that? 

 

Just because enlightenment itself is beyond logic and reasoning doesn't mean we should just discard all logic and reasoning to what it means to our lives lol. I'm not that attached to my knowlegde, as i said, i could very well be deluded, and so could Leo. Just saying there is no reason to be so dogmatic about enlightenment and its connection to happiness.

1 hour ago, Galyna said:

I am very sorry for being rude, I do not want to hurt your feelings, but reading your comments makes me feel your aggression toward this whole topic, really. 

I am sorry!

But maybe something is bothering you on the deep level? what is it?

I just wonder who or what hurt you inside that you feel bad about Enlightenment? 

 

I am trying to be friendly. 

Not aggressive at all, although i can imagine my posts might come across that way:p

I don't feel bad about enlightenment; (that would be pretty dumb, enlightenment just is) and if anything i think its very fascinating. I'm just skeptical towards Leo's claims about happiness and its relationship to enlightenment, especially because Leo is not enlightened himself. I would also say that enlightenment should be pursued to for truth and truth alone, not for the rewards for the ego like happiness, no self image problems etc

 

[Galyna]

11 minutes ago, jip said:

Just because enlightenment itself is beyond logic and reasoning doesn't mean we should just discard all logic and reasoning to what it means to our lives lol. I'm not that attached to my knowlegde, as i said, i could very well be deluded, and so could Leo. Just saying there is no reason to be so dogmatic about enlightenment and its connection to happiness.

Not aggressive at all, although i can imagine my posts might come across that way:p

I don't feel bad about enlightenment; (that would be pretty dumb, enlightenment just is) and if anything i think its very fascinating. I'm just skeptical towards Leo's claims about happiness and its relationship to enlightenment, especially because Leo is not enlightened himself. I would also say that enlightenment should be pursued to for truth and truth alone, not for the rewards for the ego like happiness, no self image problems etc

 

Well, he is straight forward and very honest, but please understand it is not Leo who makes you feel skeptical, what you feel toward him is just your PROJECTION. Maybe you do not like it because on the deep level you understand and feel that he might be right!  

Take it this way, why would you care so much to stay on this forum and prove other people that he is dogmatic? 

IF you feel that it is not YOURS, just leave it..... why staying here and battling about it, spending your time and energy? 

Life is too short for this.....

 

sorry for being rude, again. 

I feel comments like this also makes me aggressive.  I will be honest, I need to work on it, I know.

Edited February 20, 2016 by Galyna

[jip]

1 hour ago, Galyna said:

Well, he is straight forward and very honest, but please understand it is not Leo who makes you feel skeptical, what you feel toward him is just your PROJECTION. Maybe you do not like it because on the deep level you understand and feel that he might be right!  

Take it this way, why would you care so much to stay on this forum and prove other people that he is dogmatic? 

IF you feel that it is not YOURS, just leave it..... why staying here and battling about it, spending your time and energy? 

Life is too short for this.....

 

sorry for being rude, again. 

I feel comments like this also makes me aggressive.  I will be honest, I need to work on it, I know.

I really respect Leo and i think he's very intelligent- that's probably why his statements strike me a bit. I can't resolve why he makes such bold claims about happiness and enlightenment almost without leaving the possibility open of being wrong. 

I also don't understand why he has such a depressing view on the world where basically 99,999999% of people is unhappy and the only way to become happy is by 1000-10000 hours of emotionally hard work and even then you have to be extremely lucky, but maybe that's just part of his enlightenment journey and maybe he'll eventually drop that one:p 

No need to be sorry, your posts are not that rude lol;-)

Edited February 21, 2016 by jip

[Galyna]

1 hour ago, jip said:

I really respect Leo and i think he's very intelligent- that's probably why his statements strike me a bit. I can't resolve why he makes such bold claims about happiness and enlightenment almost without leaving the possibility open of being wrong. 

I also don't understand why he has such a depressing view on the world where basically 99,999999% of people is unhappy and the only way to become happy is by 1000-10000 hours of emotionally hard work and even then you have to be extremely lucky, but maybe that's just part of his enlightenment journey and maybe he'll eventually drop that one:p 

No need to be sorry, your posts are not that rude lol;-)

He is not the only one who says so, all people that go that direction have the same tendencies and views about it. But that is no so important. 

The important thing is why does it make you so upset towards these statements? Go and look inside yourself, why are you not in sync? what exactly makes you  depressed or angry? 

Who cares what Leo or other people say, in the long run it is your Reality and it is up to you what to accept. 

But let me tell you this, if something really bothers  you in others, it is not them, it is YOU! You will have to pull it from your subconscious level and work with you till you burn it completely.

It is not easy, I know, my physiologist sometimes tells me stuff and I reject it immediately, after sometime, I would admit he was right. It just so hard to accept it right off the bat.

"I also don't understand why he has such a depressing view" - again, that is not him being depressing or something, it is YOU who takes it this way. 

For example, when I join his club, I felt very inspired. 

Work with your reality, seriously....your reality is a direct reflection of what you FEEL, BELIEVE,PERCEIVE.

People, things, events are exactly what you feel inside. Be very attentive to every feeling and emotion, they are going to be your guides of what you need to work on. 

 

 

 

[Aldo Marchand]

Be creative and have more power to adapt yourself through reality changes.

[Guest]

@jip Leo is not being dogmatic. He accepts he could be wrong, which is the basis for any intelligent manner of approaching something. I think you are just a bit taken aback by his presentation style, which seems preachy and adamant. That austerity is merely a communication technique, often useful in getting the point across and making it memorable. If the message is said in a wishy-washy manner it is often ignored; which is why the uncertainty of it all is made implicit, an assumption,instead of a pervasive characteristic of the communication style.

The ability to get ears and eyeballs oriented toward your message sometimes seems contrary to open-mindedness and being able to reflect upon one's own beliefs critically. This is not always the case-- sometimes that possibility must just be assumed. Also, it is ultimately up to the audience what to make of a message. I don't think it is necessarily part of the presenter's duty to remind his audience how to think for themselves. 

[jip]

32 minutes ago, Galyna said:

He is not the only one who says so, all people that go that direction have the same tendencies and views about it. But that is no so important. 

The important thing is why does it make you so upset towards these statements? Go and look inside yourself, why are you not in sync? what exactly makes you  depressed or angry? 

Who cares what Leo or other people say, in the long run it is your Reality and it is up to you what to accept. 

But let me tell you this, if something really bothers  you in others, it is not them, it is YOU! You will have to pull it from your subconscious level and work with you till you burn it completely.

It is not easy, I know, my physiologist sometimes tells me stuff and I reject it immediately, after sometime, I would admit he was right. It just so hard to accept it right off the bat.

"I also don't understand why he has such a depressing view" - again, that is not him being depressing or something, it is YOU who takes it this way. 

For example, when I join his club, I felt very inspired. 

Work with your reality, seriously....your reality is a direct reflection of what you FEEL, BELIEVE,PERCEIVE.

People, things, events are exactly what you feel inside. Be very attentive to every feeling and emotion, they are going to be your guides of what you need to work on. 

 

 

 

It just leaves me a bit confused and unresolved, not really angry or upset lol, but guess you're right in a sense that it's more so my problem in taking his words too litterally.

[Galyna]

You got it :). 

But the good thing is that you are staying involved, keep that fire, really, it will lead you to the right direction if you would keep investigation. 

All the time when reacting on something, ask "why", it will help you to stay conscious. 

[Wasabi]

How do you delete a post?

Edited February 21, 2016 by Wasabi

[Wasabi]

@Leo Gura Hey Leo why is it that even though you know the average person stuck, and grasping onto their current egoic paradigm etc can't grasp these advanced insights about enlightenment do you still explain it to people like it's simple? This isn't a criticism, and in a way it is very simple, but do you not recall how much of a shock this information was when it came to you? Also how much time and effort (you and anyone) has to put into it to be able to experienitially grasp these kinds of things? And do you recall all of the cognitive dissonance and emotional toil one must go through that is extremely disorienting in order to really start to sorta grasp what Enlightenment is all about? It's like climbing a mountain and then telling everyone of the views from the top like they'll grasp what you see. I read your responses to people and it's just odd to me that you offer information that don't get me wrong I couldn't agree with more, but you must know the reasons why some people (and I mean this in the least critical way) have little to no desire to investigate what you're saying and in fact their main interest is to not do that and keep the tension by arguing to maintain the illusion. 

Knowing that because we truly mistake ourselves for the delusion of ego and all that conceptual junk and activity that takes place on this placeless place screen of awareness people really feel like their lives are threatened when you pierce their beliefs so casually. And I'm sure you know this, hahah, I learned it from you, I just don't get why you appear to disregard this when the topic is brought up by people who really think this whole thing takes place in the mind. I would think that you would try to tailor it to their level of understanding so that they actually might really consider it. Especially seeing how integral your understanding is of it. 

Although I'm asking Leo this question I welcome anyone to answer it. 

Take care

[Wasabi]

@Saitama You're a champ for having your name on this as Saitama haha

[Pav]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

How the hell can you be happy when you:

1. You are unable to be present in the current moment
2. You are always chasing future goals
3. You actually believe you are going to die

1. Why can't you be present with an ego? It seems to me that being more present is something you can develop separately through mental work. Also, it's possible to look at the future in excitement, and the past with gratefulness. (I haven't gone through those videos yet we may still be talking about different things)

2. Instead of doing things to chase some future goal, acquire some possession, or validated your self image, you can do things simply because you love to do them and you value them for their own sake. It's a different way of thinking and a shift in your perception of the world. Happiness has little to do with external circumstances; it's to do with your psychology. No matter what your situation, you can become happy with the right work on your psychology. Ego isn't the only factor here.

3. Because you accept that fact. You don't see death as a bad thing. It makes no sense to worry about something you have no control over. You are going back to the state you were in before you were alive, so you haven't lost anything, you've only gained, you've had brief opportunity to experience life which is remarkable!

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, jip said:

I really respect Leo and i think he's very intelligent- that's probably why his statements strike me a bit. I can't resolve why he makes such bold claims about happiness and enlightenment almost without leaving the possibility open of being wrong. 

I also don't understand why he has such a depressing view on the world where basically 99,999999% of people is unhappy and the only way to become happy is by 1000-10000 hours of emotionally hard work and even then you have to be extremely lucky, but maybe that's just part of his enlightenment journey and maybe he'll eventually drop that one:p 

No need to be sorry, your posts are not that rude lol;-)

I deliberately take a firm stance on these issues because what will happen otherwise is that your ego will weasel it's way out and say something like, "Oh, well, if I don't pursue enlightenment then maybe things will still be okay." And I want to explicitly shout in your face: NO! THINGS WILL NOT BE OKAY! WAKE UP! YOU ARE HEADED TOWARDS A CLIFF!

This can come off as dogmatic, but I'm not opposed if life ever proves me wrong. My job here is not to preach my ideology (all my ideology is in the process of being dismantled) but to simply present emotionally compelling points for your ego to swallow.

You could say my view is depressing. But you could also say it's very positive. I am telling you that with 1000 hours of work you could find unconditional everlasting happiness!!! << If that's not hopeful, I don't know what is. I feel like a snake oil salesman just saying it! It's way too good to be true (and actually it will take you way more than 1000 hours to fully realize it). But it's really amazing that something like enlightenment is possible AT ALL. So when I hear people whining about doing 1000 hours of work to get it, it makes me think that they are imbeciles. Just by knowing that enlightenment is merely possible you've been presented with a 1 in a million lottery ticket. Almost nobody knows this. And what do most people do upon learning about it? They piss it all way by saying, "Oh, well... 1000 hours... gee... that sounds long and boring.... let me go see what my friends are up to on Facebook... Oh, look! A funny cat picture! ...I'm so happy... Look at me Leo! I'm so happy with these funny cat pictures... Why you gotta be so negative Leo? Why you gotta be such a dick? Relax bro... Come look, here's a funny cat picture I wanna show you... Don't be dogmatic bro... You never know... These funny cat pictures could make you happy... You told us to be openminded Leo. So now you gotta look at these cat pictures with us... Don't contradict yourself Leo... You're making me disappointed in you Leo..."

Anyone who tells you that you can find happiness without enlightenment is misguiding you, plain and simple. Not because they are evil, but because they themselves are misguided. This position may seen dogmatic. But then again, if I insisted that jumping off a 100-story building will kill you, that too could be seen as a dogmatic position.

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Wasabi said:

@Leo Gura Hey Leo why is it that even though you know the average person stuck, and grasping onto their current egoic paradigm etc can't grasp these advanced insights about enlightenment do you still explain it to people like it's simple? This isn't a criticism, and in a way it is very simple, but do you not recall how much of a shock this information was when it came to you? Also how much time and effort (you and anyone) has to put into it to be able to experienitially grasp these kinds of things? And do you recall all of the cognitive dissonance and emotional toil one must go through that is extremely disorienting in order to really start to sorta grasp what Enlightenment is all about? It's like climbing a mountain and then telling everyone of the views from the top like they'll grasp what you see. I read your responses to people and it's just odd to me that you offer information that don't get me wrong I couldn't agree with more, but you must know the reasons why some people (and I mean this in the least critical way) have little to no desire to investigate what you're saying and in fact their main interest is to not do that and keep the tension by arguing to maintain the illusion. 

Knowing that because we truly mistake ourselves for the delusion of ego and all that conceptual junk and activity that takes place on this placeless place screen of awareness people really feel like their lives are threatened when you pierce their beliefs so casually. And I'm sure you know this, hahah, I learned it from you, I just don't get why you appear to disregard this when the topic is brought up by people who really think this whole thing takes place in the mind. I would think that you would try to tailor it to their level of understanding so that they actually might really consider it. Especially seeing how integral your understanding is of it. 

Although I'm asking Leo this question I welcome anyone to answer it. 

Take care

"The hard core of egotism is difficult to dislodge except rudely." -- Yogananda

That sums up my philosophy on non-dual teaching style rather nicely.

My first and foremost concern is to shock people into at least some semblance of awareness. Because without that, they have no hope. They will just float along in a sea of complacency.

If a student isn't willing to hear harsh truths, they are not ready for this path. And those that are ready, are usually glad when someone finally tells it like it is rather than sugarcoating it.

[Ayla]

I've not only seen that happiness @Leo Gura is talking about, but I AM THAT. 

It is worth 1000 billion hours to find THAT. Take advantage of the energy of this Forum and go towards THAT instead of letting your mind shy you away from it . Let Mr. Mind do its circus and go straight for the TRUTH of who you are. The reason people find it difficult, is because they assume it is . People do not realize that the clarity they are looking for with their minds, ARISES WITHIN the clarity of where they are looking FROM.

Also, people are so trapped into seeing themselves as persons, as individual minds confronting other individual minds, that it all gets mixed up, and consciousness has no room to whisper its TRUTH to you, no matter how many hours of "meditation" you might engage in... 

I will stop here.

WAKE UP ! 

 

 

[Ayla]

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

"Oh, well... 1000 hours... gee... that sounds long and boring.... let me go see what my friends are up to on Facebook... Oh, look! A funny cat picture! ...I'm so happy... Look at me Leo! I'm so happy with these funny cat pictures... Why you gotta be so negative Leo? Why you gotta be such a dick? Relax bro... Come look, here's a funny cat picture I wanna show you... Don't be dogmatic bro... You never know... These funny cat pictures could make you happy... You told us to be openminded Leo. So now you gotta look at these cat pictures with us... Don't contradict yourself Leo... You're making me disappointed in you Leo..."

LOL @Leo Gura

hahahhaaa SO FUNNY !!! 

Place that in a video, would you please?  

[vizual]

The funny thing is that everyone who speaks with 100% conviction that their words are truth is full of shit, no matter what it's subject about. If you think your words are truth, it's shit. Even if you are a decorated master in your field and you think you have all the knowledge there is about it, when you speak about it as absolute truth there will still be a tiny little voice in the back of your head saying you are full of shit. The ego of course tries to suppress this, since it has become his identity.

The best thing is to become Truth. And when you do, you will choose your words carefully.

 

But I'm probably full of shit anyway

[Ayla]

1 minute ago, vizual said:

when you speak about it as absolute truth there will still be a tiny little voice in the back of your head saying you are full of shit.

Not in THIS mind it doesn't  

Mercifully, in THIS body, Mind has become a tool, and was fired from his job as Master...

[Ayla]

5 minutes ago, vizual said:

The best thing is to become Truth. And when you do, you will choose your words carefully.

 

The funny thing is, there's no YOU to become anything. It feels more like, words are choosing you than the other way around  

And than, there's always the CONCEPT of truth, and there's the TRUTH! ... 

[jip]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I deliberately take a firm stance on these issues because what will happen otherwise is that your ego will weasel it's way out and say something like, "Oh, well, if I don't pursue enlightenment then maybe things will still be okay." And I want to explicitly shout in your face: NO! THINGS WILL NOT BE OKAY! WAKE UP! YOU ARE HEADED TOWARDS A CLIFF!

This can come off as dogmatic, but I'm not opposed if life ever proves me wrong. My job here is not to preach my ideology (all my ideology is in the process of being dismantled) but to simply present emotionally compelling points for your ego to swallow.

You could say my view is depressing. But you could also say it's very positive. I am telling you that with 1000 hours of work you could find unconditional everlasting happiness!!! << If that's not hopeful, I don't know what is. I feel like a snake oil salesman just saying it! It's way too good to be true (and actually it will take you way more than 1000 hours to fully realize it). But it's really amazing that something like enlightenment is possible AT ALL. So when I hear people whining about doing 1000 hours of work to get it, it makes me think that they are imbeciles. Just by knowing that enlightenment is merely possible you've been presented with a 1 in a million lottery ticket. Almost nobody knows this. And what do most people do upon learning about it? They piss it all way by saying, "Oh, well... 1000 hours... gee... that sounds long and boring.... let me go see what my friends are up to on Facebook... Oh, look! A funny cat picture! ...I'm so happy... Look at me Leo! I'm so happy with these funny cat pictures... Why you gotta be so negative Leo? Why you gotta be such a dick? Relax bro... Come look, here's a funny cat picture I wanna show you... Don't be dogmatic bro... You never know... These funny cat pictures could make you happy... You told us to be openminded Leo. So now you gotta look at these cat pictures with us... Don't contradict yourself Leo... You're making me disappointed in you Leo..."

Anyone who tells you that you can find happiness without enlightenment is misguiding you, plain and simple. Not because they are evil, but because they themselves are misguided. This position may seen dogmatic. But then again, if I insisted that jumping off a 100-story building will kill you, that too could be seen as a dogmatic position.

Thank you for taking the time to respond Leo:) I don't know about you, but if i look very honestly back on my life i would say i've been pretty happy most of the time. Are you saying it is just an illusion and i'm not conscious enough to see? It seems pretty real though:p I would agree with you that a lot of "succesful" people are probably miserable on the inside, but saying that everybody in the world is unhappy just doesn't really make sense to me. And don't you also think there is more to life than just happiness?(i remember jed saying somthing like you get used to/almost forget the contentment that that comes with enlightenment once you have it after a while)

It's almost a bit as though you tell someone who is unhappy because he has no girlfriend to cut off his balls, so it's not even an issue anymore. Okay, very crappy analogy and enlightenment is probably very great for those who get there but i hope you get the point:P

I can imagine you see all these questions as ego-defenses, but don't you think ego has the right to know at least a little bit about where it will end up after it discards itself?

Thx anyway