Leo's level of consciousness

[FreeRangeEarthling]

I haven't been on actualized.org for a long time, and am curious about Leo's current level of consciousness. I'm aware he's continued to have a lot of very profound ever-deeper awakenings on psychedelics. His aim as I understand it was to establish a stable baseline level of enlightenment through his psychedelic use; being an unconventional route, I'm curious how that's worked out so far.

I've seen comments on the forum implying he's enlightened these days, but haven't personally seen him claim this anywhere (bear in mind I've missed a lot of videos!!). I was just wondering if anyone can point me in the direction of where he's spoken to this (or maybe Leo will respond himself...). Note: I'm not talking about transient experiences (I know he's had plenty of those), only interested in abiding non-dual awareness.

Just curious. Thanks!

[Osaid]

  On 1/27/2024 at 10:17 AM, FreeRangeEarthling said:

I've seen comments on the forum implying he's enlightened these days

You have?

  On 1/27/2024 at 10:17 AM, FreeRangeEarthling said:

abiding non-dual awareness.

None of that with Leo. More of this:

I'll give you the run down so you don't have to scroll through all the lore:

Leo does not believe in non-duality or enlightenment anymore. He is chasing "deeper" awakenings and understandings through psychedelic use, that is his current trajectory.

Edited January 27, 2024 by Osaid

[FreeRangeEarthling]

  On 1/27/2024 at 10:35 AM, Osaid said:

You have?

Maybe I got the wrong end of the stick.

  On 1/27/2024 at 10:35 AM, Osaid said:

Leo does not believe in non-duality or enlightenment anymore. He is chasing "deeper" awakenings and understandings through psychedelic use, that is his current trajectory.

Aren't enlightenment and awakening the same thing? Either way, winding up chasing experiences and giving up on lasting change sounds like a bad advert for the psychedelic path. And if you're not into non-duality, I guess you're into duality, which means ego. Deciding you don't believe in enlightenment or nonduality before you've achieved enlightenment screams ego-backlash to me. Sounds like he's got a little lost. But maybe I've misunderstood...

Edited January 27, 2024 by FreeRangeEarthling

[Osaid]

  On 1/27/2024 at 0:15 PM, FreeRangeEarthling said:

Aren't enlightenment and awakening the same thing?

No.

"Awakenings" are synonymous with "enlightenment experiences" or "kensho." None of these are the same as enlightenment, though. 

You can have an infinite amount and variety of awakenings, but they are ultimately just temporal identity shifts, nothing permanent or true.

I elaborate more here:

  On 1/27/2024 at 0:15 PM, FreeRangeEarthling said:

And if you're not into non-duality, I guess you're into duality, which means ego.

Yep.

  On 1/27/2024 at 0:15 PM, FreeRangeEarthling said:

Sounds like he's got a little lost to me. But maybe I've misunderstood...

You've understood well.

[FreeRangeEarthling]

  On 1/27/2024 at 0:31 PM, Osaid said:

Yep.

You've understood well.

Well, I'm glad I checked in here but it makes me sad to see that. Gotta be honest - that's exactly what I would expect from the experiment of replacing the tried-and-tested path with balls-to-the-wall psychedelic use.

Seems like he's been pretty arrogant recently, I thought maybe that was a teaching-style but it looks a bit like ego-mania now.

Leo, I wish you all the best.

[Osaid]

  On 1/27/2024 at 0:38 PM, FreeRangeEarthling said:

Gotta be honest - that's exactly what I would expect from the experiment of replacing the tried-and-tested path with balls-to-the-wall psychedelic use.

Psychedelics create powerful experiences, and equally powerful delusions.

[UnbornTao]

I don't know. In any case, I'd refrain from judging one's consciousness based on a belief system (nonduality, et al.) One might directly know his nature, or not. Assessing the presence and "degree" of such consciousness in others is made yet the more difficult without one's self-realization. Intuition might serve here if you're able to pay close attention; ultimately, though, who knows? Unless you've been in the presence of an enlightened individual and can perhaps sense something "unusual", all we've got to evaluate are their communications. In the end, we might be limited to our own assessment of their authenticity.

Edited January 27, 2024 by UnbornTao

[FreeRangeEarthling]

  On 1/27/2024 at 0:50 PM, Osaid said:

Psychedelics create powerful experiences, and equally powerful delusions.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Still, I'm grateful to Leo for having explored that territory, it's definitely useful learning for me, just the opposite of what he maybe intended

  On 1/27/2024 at 1:32 PM, UnbornTao said:

I don't know. In any case, I'd refrain from judging one's consciousness based on a belief system (nonduality, et al.)

How do you judge Leo's level of consciousness? And what is your estimatation (again, I'm talking about an abiding level, not ephemeral experiences)?

Edited January 27, 2024 by FreeRangeEarthling

[UnbornTao]

@FreeRangeEarthling I updated my response above. Has had several enlightenments and might as well be conscious of his nature. Basically, it's tricky to evaluate.

For all we know, enlightenment is a scam and Buddha, Ramana, etc. were lying.  

[Schizophonia]

He still hasn't become shiva 

[FreeRangeEarthling]

  On 1/27/2024 at 1:32 PM, UnbornTao said:

In the end, we might be limited to our own assessment of their authenticity.

And that's what we're doing. I was never suggesting we can actually know. But if we're going to use teachers (I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you might be a student of Leo's), we need to try and judge whether they're in a position to teach us. People who end up in cults believe there's no need to assess their teachers, I disagree.

And in the absence of omniscience we'll have to use our own faculties. Judgment implies beliefs, because that's how you judge, so I admit I gave you a trick question, at least from my perspective.

I think it's perfectly valid and indeed important to question how awake Leo is.

Maybe my standards are too high but I don't agree with the 'he's had some awakenings so he might as well be enlightened' argument at all.

Edited January 27, 2024 by FreeRangeEarthling
Realized question had already been answered

[FreeRangeEarthling]

The cynic in me wonders if the whole 'enlightenment is bullshit' thing is an ego survival strategy to circumvent the problematic hypocrisy of teaching awakening when you yourself are not awake. Buy hey, what do I know.

[UnbornTao]

  On 1/27/2024 at 2:27 PM, FreeRangeEarthling said:

Maybe my standards are too high but I don't agree with the 'he's had some awakenings so he might as well be enlightened' argument at all.

I said and, not so.

A teacher communicates, you listen and pay attention, then assess whether he or she is being sincere through an intuitive sense, knowing it could be wrong. You might be looking for a reason to believe what's asserted by any given author. That you trust a teacher implies you're willing to listen to what's said, not that it is believed. In the end, what's received by you must be set aside, and contemplation must be done from scratch.

  On 1/27/2024 at 3:06 PM, FreeRangeEarthling said:

The cynic in me wonders if the whole 'enlightenment is bullshit' thing is an ego survival strategy to circumvent the problematic hypocrisy of teaching awakening when you yourself are not awake. Buy hey, what do I know.

As an acknowledgement of the fact that awakening remains hearsay, a possibility at best, until direct consciousness is revealed.

Welcome to spirituality. Very few people are actually deeply conscious and are charlatans. If people were ruthlessly honest with themselves, there wouldn't be that much "spiritual" teachers. People confuse entertainment and sharing a cosmology with genuine realization. Anyhow, better to focus on oneself.  

Edited January 27, 2024 by UnbornTao

[Rafael Thundercat]

you guys to obssesed with Leo live , do the work  , let Leo live his own Soverainty 

[Osaid]

  On 1/27/2024 at 1:37 PM, FreeRangeEarthling said:

Still, I'm grateful to Leo for having explored that territory, it's definitely useful learning for me, just the opposite of what he maybe intended

True. He's very smart intellectually, but it becomes his vice when it comes to understanding consciousness. Observing how that plays out can teach you many lessons for sure. He is still ultimately just doing philosophy, not an actual examination of consciousness.

  On 1/27/2024 at 3:06 PM, FreeRangeEarthling said:

The cynic in me wonders if the whole 'enlightenment is bullshit' thing is an ego survival strategy to circumvent the problematic hypocrisy of teaching awakening when you yourself are not awake. Buy hey, what do I know.

Pretty much. The ego orchestrating that doesn't see it that way though. The ego sees it as "deeper" and "more true" and "going beyond enlightenment."

"They're deluded, not me, enlightenment must be an illusion."

He basically realized that his idea of reality was inherently dualistic and doubled down on it, like: "Hmmm, nope, I'm right, non-duality must be wrong."

Edited January 27, 2024 by Osaid

[UnbornTao]

@Osaid I think you misunderstood the reasoning behind the "enlightenment" joke. And I think you're misinterpreting some important things, but anyway, that's an opinion. 

[Osaid]

  On 1/27/2024 at 2:15 PM, Schizophonia said:

He still hasn't become shiva 

Still hasn't become an alien on camera.

[FreeRangeEarthling]

  On 1/27/2024 at 11:08 PM, UnbornTao said:

I said and, not so.

Let me rephrase then: I don't buy the 'he might as well be enlightened' argument at all. If you're not enlightened, you're not enlightened.

 

  On 1/27/2024 at 11:08 PM, UnbornTao said:

A teacher communicates, you listen and pay attention, then assess whether he or she is being sincere through an intuitive sense, knowing it could be wrong. You might be looking for a reason to believe what's asserted by any given author. That you trust a teacher implies you're willing to listen to what's said, not that it is believed. 

I agree, but I also think we should use our brains. If you don't think there's any value to thinking/ discourse, why are you on a forum?

 

  On 1/27/2024 at 11:08 PM, UnbornTao said:

Very few people are actually deeply conscious and are charlatans. If people were ruthlessly honest with themselves, there wouldn't be that much "spiritual" teachers. 

That's exactly why we should question whether they are, which is what I'm doing. Are you a student of Leo's? If you are I have to take your 'just focus on yourself' argument with a pinch of salt.

 

  On 1/27/2024 at 11:11 PM, Rafael Thundercat said:

you guys to obssesed with Leo live , do the work  , let Leo live his own Soverainty 

Whoa. When a new forum member questions the teacher and gets instantly accused of being obsessed/ 'just leave the teacher alone don't question him', alarm bells are ringing.

Edited January 28, 2024 by FreeRangeEarthling

[FreeRangeEarthling]

Example of why it's important to think:

Yes you have to verify everything yourself. But you have to choose which hypotheses to test. Let's say Leo says makes some claim and the way to verify it is through some hardcore psychedelic protocol. Well, if you reflected on what he was saying and decided you thought he'd gotten hopelessly lost and deluded, you might decide not to do the protocol. If you just decided to test it without rational evaluation, you might yourself get hopelessly lost and deluded at which point it might be too late.

Which was the sensible option?

[vibv]

You're all hopelessly deluded. Deal with it.