Spiral dynamics is bs

[thierry]

I’ve come to a point in my life where I wish I had never learned about Spiral dynamics in the first place. 

I feel it’s limiting more than anything else.

Even on the dating area. The idea that you have to find a girl close to you is toxic I think.

Moreover I do not like how it subconsciously give a Scale of consciousness. 
 

Leo studied spiral dynamics gives it credit and he is Turquoise. How convenient. 
 

And à Jordan Peterson would be blue so 4stages down Leo ? 
 

No all that spiral dynamics is BS. I’m working of deconstructing my mind out of it.

But if it is useful to you, keep using it.

I’m just posting this cause it starts irritating me anytime I see someone using spiral dynamic terms on the forum.

[thierry]

Spiral dynamics only exists in the mind of those who believes to be high on this frame. Just like IQ only exists in the mind of those who are High on this Scale. That’s why everyone someone talk about IQ, you can be sure he has tested his IQ to be 130+ and those who bring spiral dynamics are all Turquoise in the same way.

[Devin]

@thierry I think it's supposed to be used to understand or empathize with other people better. I haven't studied it or care for it but it doesn't seem like it should be said to have levels of consciousness but rather intellectuality, even 'tier 2' it's intellectuality not consciousness. Consciousness is awareness, tier 2 is just aware of different concepts, so intellectuality.

Edited January 23 by Devin

[tuku747]

Well I for one really appreciate the perspective it's given me on people's worldviews. I've talked with many Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, Philosophers, and Mystics, I've found examples of each of these in every stage of spiral dynamics in my time spent talking with people on the microcosm that is an online voice chat community on the online communication platform called Discord.

It is fascinating to see so many worldviews converge and converse in one setting. Discord allows many people of a plethora worldviews and cultures to all be represented in the same voice room, and each person you speak with is unique in their view and temperment.

Some people have had what they would describe as spiritual experiences. Some have not.

Many have a rather dogmatic stance, a closed off point of view, meaning they tell you that they believe only their religion or POV is correct and reasonable. A Christian who believes only their sect of Christianity is correct and every other sect or religion is the work of "Satan", debating with a Muslim who believes the same. Talking with these people is frustrating if you or they are trying to change their opinion, so it's best to just meet them where they're at, and be a mirror for them the best way that you can. After all, because you were in their shoes at some point, which means you can relate with what they're saying on some level, and can share with them what insight helped you when you had a similar outlook on life to them.

Other people are more open minded, recognizing that compassion for one another and a shared love of Life/God is more important than debating you or converting you to their religion or worldview. These are the people you can vibe with, and they'll teach you very interesting things, a new perspective you've never seen before.

I've spent a lot of time conversing with people from every stage, but equally as fascinating is listening to people from the many stages conversing or debating with one another, even if their means of conversing is confrontational and debate-oriented. You'll find that every stage has a something to teach/learn, learn/teach every other stage in the spiral.

As Ram Dass said... We're all just walking each other home.

Even if you consider yourself stage yellow or turquoise, everyone you meet is your teacher. Though you may find some people who are stubborn and dogmatic, their divine purpose is as everyone elses, to serve as a mirror reflection of The Self so that we may know ourselves in relationship with one another. 

Seek to understand one another, and you will find common ground. Seek and you shall find. 

Edited January 23 by tuku747

[TheAlchemist]

There is a potential problem with SD where it can feed into the (especially western) tendency to want to place humans on a hierarchy, which can be used to justify various forms of inequality and oppression/domination. I don't see this necessarily as an inherent quality of the model itself, but I see some real dangers in how it could be interpreted to feed into various ideologies. I think there is value in spiral dynamics and it shouldn't be demonized or dismissed outright, mostly the problems come when people start confusing the map for the territory. Even if someone says they are yellow/turquoise does not mean that they are in any way immune to this problem.

I also wonder, what is truly gained with the spiral dynamics model that can't be achieved through a non-hierarchical model like the Scwartz model of basic values?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_basic_human_values

 

Here is also a nuanced discussion on the potential shadow sides of stage theories like spiral dynamics:

Ps. I am not anti-spiral dynamics, I just want to bring another perspective to this discussion, which I haven't seen much on this forum. The point is not to say that spiral dynamics is bad or should be dismissed, but to poke at the model from many perspectives to see if it truly is the best way towards what we see as valuable in understanding reality.

 

Edited January 23 by TheAlchemist

[Leo Gura]

There are definitely limits to SD and it can be misused if you start to look at everyone only through that lens.

What's needed is the ability to put on and take off the lens.

I use the lens when it's helpful and when I see it's too contrived, I drop it.

Edited January 23 by Leo Gura

[BlueOak]

Individual parts of you are at different stages of awareness. We have behaviors in ourselves that reflect different stages of development. It's a useful reference sheet but no model is perfect. 

I was most resistant to hierarchy when I arrived here, until I saw the hierarchies inside myself and their usefulness (and harm). Although a part of me still resists saying things like:

That person is more conscious than that person - Because they are both representations of me, and both entirely made from consciousness.

I saw and accepted the pattern that people develop along, regarding different issues closely follows the spiral dynamics model, and the further along they are on it, often the more life-enhancing their answers are, or at least their capacity for giving them increases. Yes the model will be improved, but I haven't seen a better one.

Edited January 23 by BlueOak

[Yimpa]

3 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

Yes the model will be improved, but I haven't seen a better one.

Leo is also a fan of model Susanne Cook-Greuter

 

 

[BlueOak]

18 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

Leo is also a fan of model Susanne Cook-Greuter

 

 

Thank you :).

[tuku747]

43 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There are definitely limits to SD and it can be misused if you start to look at everyone only through that lens.

What's needed is the ability to put on and take off the lens.

I use the lens when it's helpful and when I see it's too contrived, I drop it.

I see what you mean. Especially when you're talking with someone you're going to have to recognize that you're talking with a person and not some generic spiral dynamics stage. 

Overall, I am grateful for spiral dynamics as it's enabled me to be more patient with people of different worldviews. Every stage in the spiral is necessary, it's not like you can fault people for being where they're at.

You know, I've had several people on Discord ask me if I watch Actualized.org videos cause they could tell just by talking philosophy with me. Some in good faith, others in a snarky sort of way. Consider it a badge of honor, really

Edited January 23 by tuku747

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, tuku747 said:

Especially when you're talking with someone you're going to have to recognize that you're talking with a person and not some generic spiral dynamics stage. 

Yes, this is crucial.

Averages are not individuals.

[Girzo]

@thierry that's why should study the Wilber's Integral Theory, or Hanzi Freinacht's "The Listening Society" book. All your missing puzzles are there, the answer to questions like how can Peterson can be lower than stage Green teenagers? He is and he isn't, different areas of devlopment. Spiral Dynamics only tells you about VALUES, that is goals people set.

[Basman]

Spiral Dynamics is an exploration of tendencies and interplay among different demographics. It is based on and and is about averages. Treating it like an astronomy hoe is of course silly and contrived. It is just a model of understanding and people aren't literally "stages".

When applied to large groups is where spiral dynamics really shines. I wouldn't be able to make out heads or tails of the current Israel-Palestine war without spiral dynamics, at least not to the same degree that I do now.

[thierry]

15 minutes ago, Girzo said:

@thierry that's why should study the Wilber's Integral Theory, or Hanzi Freinacht's "The Listening Society" book. All your missing puzzles are there, the answer to questions like how can Peterson can be lower than stage Green teenagers? He is and he isn't, different areas of devlopment. Spiral Dynamics only tells you about VALUES, that is goals people set.

Thanks, I’m very far from a « good reader »

[thierry]

20 minutes ago, Girzo said:

@thierry that's why should study the Wilber's Integral Theory, or Hanzi Freinacht's "The Listening Society" book. All your missing puzzles are there, the answer to questions like how can Peterson can be lower than stage Green teenagers? He is and he isn't, different areas of devlopment. Spiral Dynamics only tells you about VALUES, that is goals people set.

But to be honest, I’ll certainly never read this books, I’d rather read Leo’s futur book. My reading time is precious.

[thierry]

It is just really hard for me to imagine that Someone as Jordan Peterson which I consider to be a Warrior of Love. Speaking the truth, putting himself in danger on a regular basis be lower than a

 

[Devin]

Peterson is only a warrior for money, he gets paid by conservative special interest groups a lot of money for his appearances.

[BlueOak]

39 minutes ago, thierry said:

It is just really hard for me to imagine that Someone as Jordan Peterson which I consider to be a Warrior of Love. Speaking the truth, putting himself in danger on a regular basis be lower than a

 

Everyone has the option to try to reach a state of love or experience love. Even the person you dislike the most can be trying to do so.

There doesn't have to be a low or high. Just ways of reasoning and experiencing the world that embody more of infinity.

Edited January 24 by BlueOak

[BlueOak]

I used to say everyone is trying to reach a state of love, but i've edited that message a lot. I think people have the choice to do so, over and over again. In every action, we get to choose division, confusion, disassociation etc. Or we get to choose, connection, love, harmony etc. Each time we pick the latter, we embody more of ourselves.

Edited January 24 by BlueOak

[Girzo]

@thierry if you have time to listen to Peterson, then you have more than enough time to read a good book like "The Listening Society".

Hanzi also has a response to Peterson's 12 rules for life book, called 12 commandments.