What Creates Hero's

[Revolutionary Think]

Leo talks a lot about Hero Journeys and such. So I was watching this talk by Mr. Zimbardo as to what creates hero's but, the thing is Leo also talks about how good and evil doesn't exist and how things just are. So I don't know how this'll fit in to it but, I'm wondering what the rest of the community thinks of this. 

 

[Bodhi123]

I believe good and evil does exist. It isn't just a label. The saint and the serial killer are not the same.

It is true that everything is what it is. But if you lie, kill, cheat, steal, rape, betray, and spread hate you are wrong.

You are wrong because your actions are counter to God.

[Arkandeus]

13 minutes ago, Bodhi123 said:

I believe good and evil does exist. It isn't just a label. The saint and the serial killer are not the same.

It is true that everything is what it is. But if you lie, kill, cheat, steal, rape, betray, and spread hate you are wrong.

You are wrong because your actions are counter to God.

who's wrong though? 

the universe? 

no one choses who they are, no one choses their personality, their reactions, the energy and impulses they feel, their sexuality, their race, their parents. 

you could say murderers and rapers could not murder and not rape but that's denying what is. they do murder and rape so who's fault is it that they feel the need to do that? did they engine their bodies and mind to react like this? 

what is, is, and everything that is should be accepted in my book.

are saints really saints? are killers really killers? 
one could have been a saint in a life, and in the life before that or the previous lives before that a murderer/rapist. 
same the other way, a murderer in this life could be a saint in the next. 
if you look beyond the illusion of death things get a little less black and white

[Scholar]

44 minutes ago, Bodhi123 said:

I believe good and evil does exist. It isn't just a label. The saint and the serial killer are not the same.

It is true that everything is what it is. But if you lie, kill, cheat, steal, rape, betray, and spread hate you are wrong.

You are wrong because your actions are counter to God.

Only by accepting everything you deem as wrong you can truly accept god. There is no action counter to god, all actions are god.

[Shin]

On one hand you have truth, and people that are able to align with it, because nothing else makes sense when you grasp it.
On the other hand you have ignorance, and people that don't really know what they do, or want, or crave, and the more they do all that, the crazier and aggressive they get.

So, there is no heroes/saints per say, there is people who try to spread the truth, because they were lucky enough to get to the point where they had a breakthrough.
There is no assholes/devils either, just people who are totally lost, totally identificated with forms, and they are suffering way more than we could ever imagine.

"There is no coming to consciousness without pain" Carl Jung
Well, that quote also means we NEED rapists, we need murderer, we need assholes, we needed Hitler, and Hiroshima,

That's a very "dark" truth here, but it needed to be stated.

 

Edited April 7, 2017 by Shin

[Bodhi123]

19 minutes ago, Arkandeus said:

who's wrong though? 

The spirit inside of the person carrying out the wrong behavior. I believe all spirit is derived from Source, but it is still an individual soul inside of each person.

21 minutes ago, Arkandeus said:

no one choses who they are, no one choses their personality, their reactions, the energy and impulses they feel, their sexuality, their race, their parents. 

I disagree. All people are responsible for their actions and we are not victims of circumstance.

23 minutes ago, Arkandeus said:

what is, is, and everything that is should be accepted in my book.

I agree and disagree. We should accept reality as it is, but we should strive to move in the direction of love and togetherness.

25 minutes ago, Arkandeus said:

if you look beyond the illusion of death things get a little less black and white

I am looking beyond the illusion of death. If you make mistakes and act hatefully in this life then you'll have the opportunity to redeem yourself in another life.

[Arkandeus]

1 minute ago, Bodhi123 said:

The spirit inside of the person carrying out the wrong behavior. I believe all spirit is derived from Source, but it is still an individual soul inside of each person.

I disagree. All people are responsible for their actions and we are not victims of circumstance.

I agree and disagree. We should accept reality as it is, but we should strive to move in the direction of love and togetherness.

I am looking beyond the illusion of death. If you make mistakes and act hatefully in this life then you'll have the opportunity to redeem yourself in another life.

I agree, we should strive towards love and togetherness. 

but how can you can do that if you point the finger at certain people? love is unconditional, togetherness is all-encompassing. 
you cannot go towards that direction and not accept a certain group of people or their actions. 

how would that work? 

love is so powerful, it is so high vibration because it accepts everything. 

for me to love is to know that on our deepest level we are all one, we are all the universe, so to reject someone is to reject yourself. 
for me to love is see that everyone is perfect, not only when they do good, but when they do bad, nothing is ''random'' or without purpose in this universe. 

you are not wrong in your reality, to see good and right, that is your vibration, but if you think this way you will stay in a karmic reality with good and wrong, positive and negative, separation, distinction between you and your world. 

this is in my book, not the way towards a vibration of love, to embody love , to go higher, you have to go all in and make no distinction between you and your world, and love every part of yourself

[Bodhi123]

2 minutes ago, Arkandeus said:

how would that work? 

Simple. You accept the person for who the person is, but you don't condone their wrong behavior.

[alyra]

maybe complacency creates heroes lol. 

[Revolutionary Think]

I think most people tired of the status quo may create heroes. 

[Bodhi123]

I think opportunity is also an important factor.

[Nahm]

Creating a hero simply requires someone to need one.

[Salaam]

Heroes are people who risk themselves for something that has deep meaning.

Good and evil as concepts leave a lot to be desired, but regardless of the label, there are people and forces that bring about the destruction of things that have meaning and benefit to others. People twisted and pressed by their pain, forces twisted out of balance, whose manifestations have to be faced and balanced, their twisting harmonized and channeled back into healthy directions.

The people who face those manifestations and harmonize and re-direct those twistings, risking themselves in the process are heroes.

My Wife is a hero. I am a hero (and a monster). All the people I am closest to have been or are heroes in my eyes.

On 4/7/2017 at 4:19 PM, Arkandeus said:

I agree, we should strive towards love and togetherness. 

but how can you can do that if you point the finger at certain people? love is unconditional, togetherness is all-encompassing. 
you cannot go towards that direction and not accept a certain group of people or their actions. 

how would that work? 

love is so powerful, it is so high vibration because it accepts everything. 

for me to love is to know that on our deepest level we are all one, we are all the universe, so to reject someone is to reject yourself. 
for me to love is see that everyone is perfect, not only when they do good, but when they do bad, nothing is ''random'' or without purpose in this universe. 

you are not wrong in your reality, to see good and right, that is your vibration, but if you think this way you will stay in a karmic reality with good and wrong, positive and negative, separation, distinction between you and your world. 

this is in my book, not the way towards a vibration of love, to embody love , to go higher, you have to go all in and make no distinction between you and your world, and love every part of yourself

You can still love a person or a thing and hold them accountable.

You can still love a person or thing and reject it. There is a difference between rejection in part and absolute rejection. There is a nuance here that has to be accounted for.

To accept is to internalize, it is different from love. Would you internalize cyanide into your lungs? Would you accept and internalize meat tainted with mad cow disease? Would you accept and internalize blood infected with AIDS? Would you accept and allow a child rapist home alone with your young daughter?
 
There are levels of love and acceptance and trust. You can have an unconditional love for everything, I do as well... BUT, just because I have that love for you doesn't mean I will trust you or accept you and allow you closer to my most intimate parts. Closeness and connection must be built, nurtured, and renewed again and again over time.
 

On 4/7/2017 at 4:06 PM, Shin said:

On one hand you have truth, and people that are able to align with it, because nothing else makes sense when you grasp it.
On the other hand you have ignorance, and people that don't really know what they do, or want, or crave, and the more they do all that, the crazier and aggressive they get.

So, there is no heroes/saints per say, there is people who try to spread the truth, because they were lucky enough to get to the point where they had a breakthrough.
There is no assholes/devils either, just people who are totally lost, totally identificated with forms, and they are suffering way more than we could ever imagine.

"There is no coming to consciousness without pain" Carl Jung
Well, that quote also means we NEED rapists, we need murderer, we need assholes, we needed Hitler, and Hiroshima,

That's a very "dark" truth here, but it needed to be stated.

 

Have you ever been around murders and rapists? I was sentenced in federal prison with a guy who got life +90 for shooting a kid 7 times and cutting his head off. I was in county jail with this little, weak, frog looking motherfucker who raped his own 14 year old daughter. My own wife was sexually abused as a child and we've spent many years healing and growing together from all that pain.

We don't fucking need that shit. There is enough pain in this world that comes honestly from growing and honest mistakes. We do not need twisted motherfuckers like that in order to know what is healthy and what is not.

People who usually talk like this or make these assertions are usually the sheltered ones, who have no actual first-hand experience with how twisted life can be and the horrible damage it can do to the most fragile parts of who we are. Their out of touch with it's actual reality and over-intellectualize it from their safe little space.

This world is horribly brutal yes, and also beautiful, but to say we NEED the manifestations of these sick manifestations of imbalance? Fuck no, we can evolve so that intensity of imbalance doesn't manifest. We can evolve so that we work and maintain balance without the presence of that shit, destroying the lives of the people who had no defense or help.
 

Edited April 10, 2017 by Salaam

[Revolutionary Think]

@Salaam I also don't appreciate it either when people who haven't been through what you've been through think they can talk about it as if they are an expert on the subject. Also I want to know if you spoken to those disgusting people who did those things and what there motive was. That or they are either mentally deranged. 

Also I'm glad that you and your wife spent time healing and growing I think that's what we're all ultimately trying to do here. 

[Salaam]

52 minutes ago, Revolutionary Think said:

@Salaam I also don't appreciate it either when people who haven't been through what you've been through think they can talk about it as if they are an expert on the subject. Also I want to know if you spoken to those disgusting people who did those things and what there motive was. That or they are either mentally deranged. 

Also I'm glad that you and your wife spent time healing and growing I think that's what we're all ultimately trying to do here. 

Thanks

I hope @Shin doesn't take what I said as an insult or attack on him. That wasn't my intention. I feel like I understand what he's trying to say... but in my experience there are further truths to uncover along that line of thought that bring needed clarity, once you've stepped into and lived in the middle of those fires.

I only had a brief conversation with the child rapist before I found out what he was in for. Once word got around about what he did, he had to be moved to protective custody because others in general population wanted to hurt him. But, I got a good read on who he was and what he was about I think, while also studying others like him. Same can be said for the dude who chopped that kids head off and all the other people I was around who were killers.

I've spent a lot of time around so-called monsters... it's way too simple to demonize them or paint them as sick or deranged. The reality is more complicated than that.

The rapists I've encountered were very, very weak men who violate the defenseless in order to feel powerful. They treated others as objects or instruments to further their desires. Taking what they couldn't honestly attract and nurture via a healthy relationship with a mature and developed partner. They are the males who have not developed and harmonized their animal sexuality alongside their confidence, heart/caring, and self-worth. So in order to shortcut that development they force themselves on women for sexual satisfaction and of course find none... leaving violated children and others in their wake. Most likely, they have been raped themselves or in some other way emasculated over and over again, so they try to right that balance, that dissonance inside themselves through twisted means, rather than healing and untwisting... I can empathize with that initial pain and not lose sight of their humanity, while still holding them accountable and responsible for how they expressed that pain and their twisted desires so horribly onto others.

So much of this is based in being twisted by pain, which then turns into that pain getting expressed and acted out in horrible ways, that perpetuates the cycle. But, of course there is the part of them that enjoys it. The part that only knows those twisted, shitty ways of enjoyment, and is ignorant of better choices and a better reality. Their fooled by these shitty choices and make no effort to work and hurt and face the challenge of healing towards a better way.

It's the same with murderers. Lashing out to stave off pain from others or themselves. Killing for respect, for money, for acceptance, for attention and validation from others... it all stems from scarcity and avoidance of pain. Choosing to keep on destroying because of that pain and scarcity, rather than taking the harder road that demands self-responsibility and building rather than hollow distractions that make things worse and hurt others.

They mire themselves in the worse combinations of energy that a human can express. Too hollowed out to risk stepping out of those combinations to invest and create meaning and build beauty.

 

Edited April 10, 2017 by Salaam

[Leo Gura]

All a hero really is, is someone who, when faced with the choice between ego and Truth, chooses Truth, breaking loyalty with ego. The hero annihilates himself, recognizing that he is the only evil there is. All external battles are just metaphors for enlightenment. In conquering himself, the hero has conquered all evil and its at peace. Now he is the wise old man guiding others in the same process he underwent. This, in a nutshell, is all of human life. Except most people never even begin the journey.

The reason hero's are admired, is because they give us a glimpse of how great we ourselves could be if we would only muster the courage to choose Truth over ego. The reason we like to celebrate hero's is because it gives us a false hope that they can do it for us.

[Revolutionary Think]

Which actually bothers me is because society at large turns you into a villain by giving you the ego. No where is the more apparent than in the education system ESPECIALLY the Western style education system. At a very young age you're taken away from your parents for most of the day and given all these things to do. Then later in the school system that's when they separate everyone and make these caste systems. They make the grades and the grades are attached to you defining the kind of person you are and the kind of person you are going to be. The people who get the better grades are the ones who's egos are fed the most. Basically the education system especially when you get into the later years is just a trough for the ego. Almost no attention is paid to getting in touch with your true self. Only your fake self. The grades, the diplomas and degrees that are posted on the wall (showing everything the ego has accomplished). I don't know about anyone else here but, I think that an enlightened society would never create something like a public education system that's just based purely on competition and giving out grades. 

Then again I run into the problem of my own ego by writing down this statement about how the education system is and what it does to people it's my ego that wants the attention for the good that I'm trying to do (or I think I'm doing) by bringing attention to this problem. 

[Leo Gura]

@Revolutionary Think Yes, of course! Which is why the hero must go it alone. The hero's journey always starts with him leaving behind his comfortable social existence. In real life, that's not easy to do. Most people NEVER make it that far.

Notice that in books and in movies the hero is almost always opposed by the villain who is a defender of the status quo (very often mainstream society or culture).

The status quo always demonizes the hero, because that's what ego does to Truth. Ego must pervert Truth in order to maintain itself. It's a cosmic battle between Truth and illusion (Maya). And Maya has the upper hand because it's free to use dirty tricks whereas Truth must stay true.

If all of society conspired to help you effortlessly attain Truth, a hero's journey wouldn't be necessary and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[Martin123]

25 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Revolutionary Think Yes, of course! Which is why the hero must go it alone. The hero's journey always starts with him leaving behind his comfortable social existence. In real life, that's not easy to do. Most people NEVER make it that far.

Notice that in books and in movies the hero is almost always opposed by the villain who is a defender of the status quo (very often mainstream society or culture).

The status quo always demonizes the hero, because that's what ego does to Truth. Ego must pervert Truth in order to maintain itself. It's a cosmic battle between Truth and illusion (Maya). And Maya has the upper hand because it's free to use dirty tricks whereas Truth must stay true.

If all of society conspired to help you effortlessly attain Truth, a hero's journey wouldn't be necessary and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

In the Law of one there is an explanation that makes a lot of sense.
Good vs. evil = Entities oriented in service to others vs. Entities oriented in service to self.
From the point of view of nonduality, the one, they are both eqauly important expressions of infinity and neither of them is prefered.
However!
Service to others is a more efficient way of approaching existence. Why? Because when you are service to self oriented, all other entities are seen just as mere extension of yourself. This is in a sense narcissistic view of enlightenment, which isn't wrong per se, it is just a different approach, one that lacks empathy and love isn't bursting from you into space, but it is oriented towards you and only you, not hesitating to use others in order to get your desires met.
On the other hand, service to others oriented entities are having the advantage of cooperation and mirroring. They see themselves in others, not from a point of view o a narcissist, but as a mirror, and can consciously act as a mirror to others, bringing more balance, more well-being, more love and more compassion, inherently working towards creating a civilisation of very warm loving beautiful goodness.

The conflict of good vs. evil is really just a game that both agree on playing, they are both part of the same consciousness, just exploring different approaches of exploring and expressing infinity.
The tricky part comes in where the service-to-others oriented ones "fight" against evil. They can never "fight" against them in the manner of hate or inferiority, or anger, because whenever they approach the interaction with anything BUT love, understanding and compassion they polarize themselves to the other side of the spectrum which is SERVICE TO SELF. So in that sense, service to self would win.

There is good and evil. Both are equally valid, both are beautiful, both are miraculous phenomena in existence. The question is... Are you strong enough not to fall prey to the temptations of the darkside Young Padawan?! <3

 

[Martin123]

@Bodhi123 the post above.