The scapegoating of the nice guy

[Devin]

30 minutes ago, meta_male said:

Nice is where the average guy starts his journey.

See, that's not the nice the OP is referring too, it takes a lot of development to be a noble gentlemen like he's talking about.

30 minutes ago, meta_male said:

OP is frustrated about dating coaches who brainwash guys on the other end of the spectrum.

I think he's just rightfully irritated about the sentiment thrown around about how being a good person get's you last place, it's patently untrue, being a door mat and giving up get's you last place, but an asshole will never get peace or a great life or wife.

[Devin]

41 minutes ago, NoSelfSelf said:

@Devin With that messages shows you are the nice guy because you are meeting the bar for a woman from that belief comes all the other cupcaking bs...@meta_male

I strive to be, still some work to do. I'm not meeting the bar for the woman I'm doing it for myself, regardless of dating it's the good life.

[BlueOak]

Here are some inherent problems with all of this mess:

1, Manners and discipline are not regarded as virtues anymore. Here in this very thread, they are somewhat vilified, more so in the wider population. At the same time, people will look at the behavior of not having these qualities, and complain about it.

2, Behaviors such as people saying 'Go teach your boy to be a man' to women, never really consider the words they just said. That's often the man's or male role model's job. I've seen this so many times recently in different forms across different groups, in this social trend, it makes my head spin. This is very important to highlight because it's about fathers or male role models teaching their sons or students, the responsibility of things like fatherhood and instilling things like discipline and manners.

3,  Being civil is a good starting point for anything. People are less likely to be confrontational if you are not being so yourself. You are much more likely to have a normal conversation with them, or make a deal in business, or communicate on a forum if you keep yourself in check. Being belligerent or antagonistic is a sure way to provoke the same.

4, Being civil does not mean being a doormat. A constantly confused point of view I hear from people. 

5, Discipline is one of the requirements of success. Being focused, remaining disciplined, and on task.

6, Saying Women like X. 
You've already failed in your analysis. Putting billions of people into easily demonstratable labels is a farce. There are certainly trends and patterns you can point to, but to take an absolute position is unhelpful. Its a current contributing cause of the dating crisis, and a large contributor to the population problems developed nations are experiencing. 

Be more like this 10% of people. Sorry 90% (Reality) you are not the ones we are focusing on now. We'll build entire systems and sites that support highlighting a very small number of people, that everyone is chasing, and social networks to enforce this belief in the culture. We'll lure you in with exaggerated photos and videos. Oh no, we have created a dating problem. Let's focus on this 10% instead, what could go wrong! *facepalm*

Focus on the values an average man, with average looks/charisma, average everything, brings to a woman. Highlight that and all this mess will finally cease to exist, or at least begin to unravel back to normality. (Obviously doing the same for women too)

7, Said it a hundred times. In purely cerebral electronic communication we lost things like the ability to socialise in person. It's much harsher, cutting, the words like an edged blade in a conversation. In-person, we'd be considering each other's reaction, we'd be moderating language somewhat, and projecting more understandable positions. Adjusting and projecting to the group visually, by tones, by subject matter, body language, by group dynamics, smell/sight, and familiar touch or mannerisms etc. More would develop, and conversations would be more than a symbol on a page interpreted largely in a disconnected way from the speaker.

It's the same over a phone, and texting it loses so much of what is possible, or of that person, people are reduced to:
Nice guy. Jerk. Not a nice guy. Simp, Narcissist, Fool, whatever so much more easily, because these symbols on the page are all we have to surmise them. - This sort of limitation in turn, is what created rigid and limiting categorization in dating, leading to less tolerance or acceptance, and less couples getting together. Ditto politics, ditto business, and the rigid angular nature of communication this way is in part why the world is dividing on the macro.

Edited January 18 by BlueOak

[NoSelfSelf]

@Devin Ok,also i remember for some reason similar topic we talked and like you thought giving your girlfriend a footmassage etc is simping ,this is where big disctinction is nice guy vs asshole,asshole will please the woman when she meets his bar vs nice guy doing it to meet the bar.But in pursuing her bar he is not doing nothing to offer anything because his focus is her while asshole is all about himself...

When she proved herself to be your gf there is nothing you are doing is simping its opposite..but if you reward disrespect then you are a nice guy vs asshole will dismiss  her...

Edited January 18 by NoSelfSelf

[meta_male]

1 hour ago, Devin said:

I think he's just rightfully irritated about the sentiment thrown around about how being a good person get's you last place, it's patently untrue, being a door mat and giving up get's you last place, but an asshole will never get peace or a great life or wife.

He's under the illusion the world and masculinity need to be saved and there's such a thing as good and bad.

The nice guy still buys into his mommy's narrative, the asshole doesn't care about what others think, he's smart and can see that those who call him that are those who sleep with him, can't be too bad then. He knows his value and needs not to proof it to anyone. Don't take life too seriously

[Devin]

16 minutes ago, meta_male said:

He's under the illusion the world and masculinity need to be saved and there's such a thing as good and bad.

The nice guy still buys into his mommy's narrative, the asshole doesn't care about what others think, he's smart and can see that those who call him that are those who sleep with him, can't be too bad then. He knows his value and needs not to proof it to anyone. Don't take life too seriously

I disagree, assholes are assholes because they're consumed by what other people think of them, they buy into their mommy's narrative and resent the world because it doesn't work out that way for them. Someone not trying to prove to others would radiate the love and appreciation they have for the world and life that is, not anger and haste towards it.

The asshole does get laid though, but a lay of no value with a lady of no value, it's on the same level as a 13 year old finding a playboy.

Edited January 18 by Devin

[Israfil]

25 minutes ago, Devin said:

I disagree, assholes are assholes because they're consumed by what other people think of them, they buy into their mommy's narrative and resent the world because it doesn't work out that way for them. Someone not trying to prove to others would radiate the love and appreciation they have for the world and life that is, not anger and haste towards it.

The asshole does get laid though, but a lay of no value with a lady of no value, it's on the same level as a 13 year old finding a playboy.

And as I said, getting validation from someone you essentially don't care about leaves you resentful. That's why they're abusive. The frustration comes from being with someone and expecting to feel validated, but as they despise the very source of said validation, they cannot obtain it. This frustration and repetition of unconscious patterns eventually leads to anger and that anger is outwardly projected into abuse. 

That's what I meant when I said you don't have to fix your trauma to have sex with women, but if you don't fix it, the sex won't deeply satisfy you. You'll be in the same mental space, and maybe even demonize sex and women further. It is a recipe for a shitty life.

Edited January 18 by Israfil

[meta_male]

1 hour ago, Devin said:

I disagree, assholes are assholes because they're consumed by what other people think of them, they buy into their mommy's narrative and resent the world because it doesn't work out that way for them.

I see what you mean, you call people with victim mentality assholes. I agree with you.

1 hour ago, Devin said:

Someone not trying to prove to others would radiate the love and appreciation they have for the world and life that is, not anger and haste towards it.

Not necessarily...put yourself into the shoes of a guy trying to heal his childhood trauma. See him as someone taking his inner wounded child by its hand and guiding it through life. It can look ugly as hell when a parent is protecting their child. It's also a form of love, just not the romantic Hollywood crap. Now see how this is true for a guy putting his purpose above everything else. Anyone interfering with his mission is gonna face harsh consequences. He knows himself and has realised he's not gonna make the world a better place by being nice, it takes a little more than that. You won't find these guys telling people to smile more, appreciate life more, to radiate more love. But you sure as hell will find such people in woke circles, thinking they're being real nice all the while unaware about who they actually are.

1 hour ago, Devin said:

The asshole does get laid though, but a lay of no value with a lady of no value, it's on the same level as a 13 year old finding a playboy.

If it makes you feel better...

 

Edited January 18 by meta_male

[Devin]

1 hour ago, meta_male said:

 

Not necessarily...put yourself into the shoes of a guy trying to heal his childhood trauma. See him as someone taking his inner wounded child by its hand and guiding it through life. It can look ugly as hell when a parent is protecting their child. It's also a form of love, just not the romantic Hollywood crap.

Right, there are growing pains and phases for processing trauma, you're likely to be mean through some of it.

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Now see how this is true for a guy putting his purpose above everything else. Anyone interfering with his mission is gonna face harsh consequences.

"purpose" is being consumed by what others think, goals, aspirations, results, all of those are fueled purely by the desire to impress others. If you let go of worrying about what others think you will love and appreciate everything how it already is and however it will become, this doesn't mean you won't do anything, you'll do more because you won't be saddled with the dread of possible failure, but you won't do it for the result you'll be doing it because you love doing it.

 

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He knows himself and has realised he's not gonna make the world a better place by being nice, it takes a little more than that.

The only way to create real change is through giving others love, anything else is perpetuation of the status quo.

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You won't find these guys telling people to smile more, appreciate life more, to radiate more love. But you sure as hell will find such people in woke circles, thinking they're being real nice all the while unaware about who they actually are.

Right, that's not what he means by nice. He means not being an instigating asshole, not having lying as a defining trait, being respectful and considerate.

Edited January 18 by Devin

[Devin]

1 hour ago, Israfil said:

And as I said, getting validation from someone you essentially don't care about leaves you resentful. That's why they're abusive. The frustration comes from being with someone and expecting to feel validated, but as they despise the very source of said validation, they cannot obtain it. This frustration and repetition of unconscious patterns eventually leads to anger and that anger is outwardly projected into abuse. 

That's what I meant when I said you don't have to fix your trauma to have sex with women, but if you don't fix it, the sex won't deeply satisfy you. You'll be in the same mental space, and maybe even demonize sex and women further. It is a recipe for a shitty life.

Exactly, the 'get laid' thing is about validation from others, if it was for just having sex it would be more logical to be a nice boyfriend and you'd be able to have sex anytime you want with zero work.

[Buck Edwards]

Define nice guy 

[mr_engineer]

21 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

Define nice guy 

A man who is authentic, who wears his heart on his sleeve and who doesn't think with his dick. In other words, a man who actually feels love for women. 

The reason this is 'nice' for women, is that he has an intrinsic motivation to be morally sound with women. Because such an individual will never cheat on a woman. 

[Buck Edwards]

1 minute ago, mr_engineer said:

A man who is authentic, who wears his heart on his sleeve and who doesn't think with his dick. In other words, a man who actually feels love for women. 

The reason this is 'nice' for women, is that he has an intrinsic motivation to be morally sound with women. Because such an individual will never cheat on a woman. 

Are you like that? 

[mr_engineer]

1 minute ago, Buck Edwards said:

Are you like that? 

Yeah. 

I don't approach women because 'she make my dick hard, so me go approach'. I need more knowledge about her to ask her out, I am actively looking for red-flags in hot women. I am very committed to the process of getting into a loving relationship. 

[Buck Edwards]

Just now, mr_engineer said:

Yeah. 

I don't approach women because 'she make my dick hard, so me go approach'. I need more knowledge about her to ask her out, I am actively looking for red-flags in hot women. I am very committed to the process of getting into a loving relationship. 

What does a loving relationship look like to you? 

[mr_engineer]

Just now, Buck Edwards said:

What does a loving relationship look like to you? 

• My love-language is physical-touch, so cuddling. 
• We are curious about each other, we have a genuine desire to be involved in each other's lives, because we have wisdom to offer to each other. 
• We are good at resolving conflicts. (I was considering asking out one of the hottest women in my circle, but then, she argued with me about something really trivial that I knew better about. So, red-flag, didn't ask her out.) 
• We are willing to help each other grow, because we personally benefit from it. 
• We are willing to go for broke, financially, meaning, we won't hold each other back on that front. We have an abundance-mindset. 
• I cook, she cleans. I like cooking and I have no problem finding women who prefer cleaning. 
• We prioritize the relationship over other things, like the career. Careers can come and go, people can't. 

These are some good pointers for me apart from sexual-compatibility. You can figure these out just talking to them. Then, when this part works out and there's chemistry, I can ask them out. And, the point of dating would be to figure out sexual-compatibility. Then, once you figure that out, you can marry her and have her babies! 

[Miguel1]

On 1/9/2024 at 10:53 PM, mr_engineer said:

There are a whole bunch of people saying a whole bunch of nasty things about nice guys. That 'they're weak, they're inauthentic, they're manipulative, they're controlling, they're not really nice', blah blah blah. I have finally figured out why that is. 

It's because dating-coaches really profit from telling you 'you're being too nice, don't be too nice, do this instead'. 

If they told you the truth, which is that women want a man to be nice and loving towards them, and you should be nice (in smart and pragmatic ways, meaning, if someone asks you for an unreasonable favor, you help them not by doing the favor, you help them by suggesting a better, more convenient alternative), that would not be original. 

This is a problem. Because we are killing true masculinity by doing this. True masculinity is not about achievement and conquest, it is about giving. It is about sharing your gift with the world. 

Honestly, I am not proud of the fact that I live in times when 'being nice' is considered a bad thing and selfishness is glorified. 

BE nice. Definitely be nice to women.

No one ever talked against that.

But make sure it comes from abundance and options, instead of a desperate strategy to get into their pants.

[Buck Edwards]

33 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

• My love-language is physical-touch, so cuddling. 

Find a woman who likes that too. 

33 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

• We are curious about each other, we have a genuine desire to be involved in each other's lives, because we have wisdom to offer to each other. 

You'll have to work on your communication for that. You can't have that magically happen in a day. Relationship is hard work. Bonding, spending quality time, learning the other persons needs etc. You'll have to learn not only how to communicate your own needs but also listen to their needs as well. 

33 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

• We are good at resolving conflicts. (I was considering asking out one of the hottest women in my circle, but then, she argued with me about something really trivial that I knew better about. So, red-flag, didn't ask her out.) 

If someone starts a conflict that's not such a bad thing. Level up your threshold for conflict. Don't look at conflict negatively. Personally I feel she should be able to conflict with you. You can take it either way. But learning how to handle conflict will smooth out your relationship curve faster. 

33 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

• We are willing to help each other grow, because we personally benefit from it. 

You need to tell me what this growth means? What growth? Can't this growth be achieved on your own? What part of this growth needs to be shared? What sort of growth are you visualizing in your mind? Getting to know her or getting to know life with her? What is this growth you're talking about? Be Clear. 

33 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

• We are willing to go for broke, financially, meaning, we won't hold each other back on that front. We have an abundance-mindset. 

What do you mean? Broke is not an easy state. I was broke a few months ago. It was pure hell. 

33 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

• I cook, she cleans. I like cooking and I have no problem finding women who prefer cleaning. 

Shared labor looks fine to me. 

33 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

• We prioritize the relationship over other things, like the career. Careers can come and go, people can't. 

This is hard. People bank on their careers. You're being idealistic. A relationship is not just all cuddly coo. 

 

33 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

These are some good pointers for me apart from sexual-compatibility. You can figure these out just talking to them. Then, when this part works out and there's chemistry, I can ask them out. And, the point of dating would be to figure out sexual-compatibility. Then, once you figure that out, you can marry her and have her babies! 

You make it sound like a formula. Don't test so hard. Let it evolve organically. The problem with logical dudes like you is that they get too nerdy about relationships. You have a ton of self work before you expect your partner to wise up. 

 

49 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

Yeah. 

I don't approach women because 'she make my dick hard, so me go approach'. I need more knowledge about her to ask her out, I am actively looking for red-flags in hot women. I am very committed to the process of getting into a loving relationship. 

 

[mr_engineer]

20 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

Find a woman who likes that too. 

You'll have to work on your communication for that. You can't have that magically happen in a day. Relationship is hard work. Bonding, spending quality time, learning the other persons needs etc. You'll have to learn not only how to communicate your own needs but also listen to their needs as well. 

Kay. 

21 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

If someone starts a conflict that's not such a bad thing. Level up your threshold for conflict. Don't look at conflict negatively. Personally I feel she should be able to conflict with you. You can take it either way. But learning how to handle conflict will smooth out your relationship curve faster. 

Just to be clear, you're also talking about a 'loving' relationship, right? Cuz in my definition of 'loving', starting a conflict for no reason is a dealbreaker. 

26 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

You need to tell me what this growth means? What growth? Can't this growth be achieved on your own? What part of this growth needs to be shared? What sort of growth are you visualizing in your mind? Getting to know her or getting to know life with her? What is this growth you're talking about? Be Clear. 

By growth, I mean, teaching the other to be in relationship with ourselves. We are unique individuals with unique needs and we should be able to coach the other person into meeting those needs. We shouldn't expect them to know everything coming into the relationship, we should not be relying on 'past experience', in fact, it is healthy to admit that you don't know the other person and how to relate to them before they teach you how to do so. 

21 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

What do you mean? Broke is not an easy state. I was broke a few months ago. It was pure hell. 

'Go for broke' is an American term for being ambitious and not clinging too much to security. 

22 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

This is hard. People bank on their careers. You're being idealistic. A relationship is not just all cuddly coo. 

As I said, careers come and go. You have to have the right priorities in life if you want to die without regrets. 

Also, relationship-wisdom is very applicable to business. So, there isn't much to lose by prioritizing the relationship and there isn't much to gain from prioritizing the career. The career is meaningless anyways if you're coming back to an empty house. 

25 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

You make it sound like a formula. Don't test so hard. Let it evolve organically. The problem with logical dudes like you is that they get too nerdy about relationships. You have a ton of self work before you expect your partner to wise up. 

The whole point of the partner wising up is so that she helps with the self-work. 

I don't see myself as a 'product' to put on the shelf so that 'consumers' (women) can come, see whether they like it and use and throw me. If you prefer a 'finished product' over a 'work-in-progress' which I will always be, cuz I'm not perfect (neither are you), don't waste my time. 

[Buck Edwards]

25 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

Kay. 

Just to be clear, you're also talking about a 'loving' relationship, right? Cuz in my definition of 'loving', starting a conflict for no reason is a dealbreaker. 

By growth, I mean, teaching the other to be in relationship with ourselves. We are unique individuals with unique needs and we should be able to coach the other person into meeting those needs. We shouldn't expect them to know everything coming into the relationship, we should not be relying on 'past experience', in fact, it is healthy to admit that you don't know the other person and how to relate to them before they teach you how to do so. 

'Go for broke' is an American term for being ambitious and not clinging too much to security. 

As I said, careers come and go. You have to have the right priorities in life if you want to die without regrets. 

Also, relationship-wisdom is very applicable to business. So, there isn't much to lose by prioritizing the relationship and there isn't much to gain from prioritizing the career. The career is meaningless anyways if you're coming back to an empty house. 

The whole point of the partner wising up is so that she helps with the self-work. 

I don't see myself as a 'product' to put on the shelf so that 'consumers' (women) can come, see whether they like it and use and throw me. If you prefer a 'finished product' over a 'work-in-progress' which I will always be, cuz I'm not perfect (neither are you), don't waste my time. 

It seems like you want to view yourself as a work in progress yet you want her to be perfect? You judge her as unsuitable if she starts a conflict with you. So you consider her immature and don't want to see her as a work in progress