Daniel Schmachtenberger Start making sense for me in this one

[Nilsi]

31 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

Arguably the deeper real issue is the great bystander effect that Daniel  Schmachtenberger and intellectuals like him have to overcome, and unfortunately he's so out there that as an argumentation, this lacks. His arguments lacks urgency and concrete examples, his arguments lacks  even in some concrete explanations of resolving some issues. Differing to that this needs 'global coordination' when globally there's this bystander effect of each nation/country for itself, is the real problem. The real issue is that Daniel Schmachtenberger is not persuasive enough, and people like Jamie Wheel, Iain McGilchrist, and John Vervaeke are not persuasive to shock the world enough from it's bystander effect it has for itself. Expecting to shock the world with boring abstraction and intellectualization isn't realistic at all. How can you persuade the world and global systems and other cultures, other economies to coordinate with each other from pure abstract philosophizing? 

I would say there is no public intellectual that is doing more activism and expresses a greater sense of urgency than Schmachtenberger.

This talk is such a radical call to action. When I listened to it, I couldnt sleep for several nights, because I was afraid Daniel would visit me in my dreams to tell me that its TIME TO ACT.

He also overtly expresses his struggle to formulate clear action steps for the average viewer to follow and usually takes it back to Lao Tzus "The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao," to (rightly) justify his approach of empowering people to figure out the right steps for themselves. 

Edited January 9 by Nilsi

[Danioover9000]

@Nilsi

6 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

I would say there is no public intellectual that is doing more activism and expresses a greater sense of urgency than Schmachtenberger.

This talk is such a radical call to action. When I listened to it, I couldnt sleep for several nights, because I was afraid Daniel would visit me in my dreams to tell me that its TIME TO ACT.

He also overtly expresses his struggle to formulate clear action steps for the average viewer to follow and usually takes it back to Lao Tzus "The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao," to (rightly) justify his approach of empowering people to figure out the right steps for themselves. 

   I disagree here. First of all, his interpretations of Lao Tzu and the Tai Te Cheng are inaccurate, and frankly BS attempts to hide his lack of argumentation here, to even 'justify' his approach tto empower individualism here is sloppy, felt like he was sneaking in here libertarianism.

   Secondly, since you inserted yourself here and your personal feelings to his 'call to action', is irrelevant to his argumentation. I find him attacking people with psychopathic traits horrible, because some percentage of psychopaths are born that way, besides the environmental conditions of developing psychopathy, so him demonizing this personality trait is uncalled for when such people make valuable assets to society, such as nurses, surgeons, policemen, security, and other social roles that require some psychopathy to be decent in. I disagree with your assertion that Schmachtenberger has more urgency and action taking, in fact he's talking out of white privilege and home schooling, and your evidence to corroborate your claims are not sufficient to justify your claims of him.

[Israfil]

13 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

   Secondly, since you inserted yourself here and your personal feelings to his 'call to action', is irrelevant to his argumentation. I find him attacking people with psychopathic traits horrible, because some percentage of psychopaths are born that way, besides the environmental conditions of developing psychopathy, so him demonizing this personality trait is uncalled for when such people make valuable assets to society, such as nurses, surgeons, policemen, security, and other social roles that require some psychopathy to be decent in. I disagree with your assertion that Schmachtenberger has more urgency and action taking, in fact he's talking out of white privilege and home schooling, and your evidence to corroborate your claims are not sufficient to justify your claims of him.

Isn't action also emotionally motivated? Isn't someone who can have this deep impact on someone more effective at promoting action precisely because of the emotional component in his speech? If he wants people to apply knowledge to solutions, part of the application is actually having the drive to solve the problem in the first place.

There is a transracionality at play whenever you effectively call someone to act. You have to touch both rational and emotional motivations to convince people. I'd say that anecdotes and testimonials are more effective in that sense than simply raw data.

[Nilsi]

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Nilsi

   I disagree here. First of all, his interpretations of Lao Tzu and the Tai Te Cheng are inaccurate, and frankly BS attempts to hide his lack of argumentation here, to even 'justify' his approach tto empower individualism here is sloppy, felt like he was sneaking in here libertarianism.

   Secondly, since you inserted yourself here and your personal feelings to his 'call to action', is irrelevant to his argumentation. I find him attacking people with psychopathic traits horrible, because some percentage of psychopaths are born that way, besides the environmental conditions of developing psychopathy, so him demonizing this personality trait is uncalled for when such people make valuable assets to society, such as nurses, surgeons, policemen, security, and other social roles that require some psychopathy to be decent in. I disagree with your assertion that Schmachtenberger has more urgency and action taking, in fact he's talking out of white privilege and home schooling, and your evidence to corroborate your claims are not sufficient to justify your claims of him.

I just rewatched the entire thing for sake of argument and he very clearly tells you what he wants you to do.

He wants to radicalize you and urges you to unplug from "the social matrix"/"moloch" -- he ties this together with the classic Krishnamurti quote of it "not being a good meassure of health to be well adapted to a profoundly sick society" (this is as anti-libertarian as it gets).

He also tells you to curate your social media feeds with whatever feels most meaningful and true to you (and gives Nate Hagens as an example), because youre "the product of the five people you spend the most time with."

He also says that he wants you to be depressed, because thats the only authentic feeling you could have, if you truly pay attention to the trajectory mankind is currently on.

In essence, he wants you to completely rebuild your life from scratch, so you can avoid "moloch" from the start, before becoming entangled with it and having it take over your motivations.

I really like this approach, precisely because it is so radical. 

I must admit though that I can not genuinely say that the values and worldview he puts forward are congruent with my deepest values (which is the premise on which the procedure rests), but perhaps that only confirms his pessimism.

Edited January 9 by Nilsi

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Nilsi said:

W

I raise you Neri Oxman though, shes a real A+++:

 

I'm not even joking, she looks identical to one of my lecturers from my bachelor 😹

[Danioover9000]

@Israfil

52 minutes ago, Israfil said:

Isn't action also emotionally motivated? Isn't someone who can have this deep impact on someone more effective at promoting action precisely because of the emotional component in his speech? If he wants people to apply knowledge to solutions, part of the application is actually having the drive to solve the problem in the first place.

There is a transracionality at play whenever you effectively call someone to act. You have to touch both rational and emotional motivations to convince people. I'd say that anecdotes and testimonials are more effective in that sense than simply raw data.

   Sorry, whatever 'emotional component' of that ridiculous video has, is lacking in realism and concrete examples, to at least show some credibility to his abstract talks. He'll have to better his arguments or rhetoric, or someone better than him can destroy his arguments and make a fool of Daniel Schmachtenberger in public.

 

@Nilsi

 

9 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

I just rewatched the entire thing for sake of argument and he very clearly tells you what he wants you to do.

He wants to radicalize you and urges you to unplug from "the social matrix"/"moloch" -- he ties this together with the classic Krishnamurti quote of it "not being a good meassure of health to be well adapted to a profoundly sick society" (this is as anti-libertarian as it gets).

He also tells you to curate your social media feeds with whatever feels most meaningful and true to you (and gives Nate Hagens as an example), because youre "the product of the five people you spend the most time with."

He also says that he wants you to be depressed, because thats the only authentic feeling you could have, if you truly pay attention to the trajectory mankind is currently on.

In essence, he wants you to completely rebuild your life from scratch, so you can avoid "moloch" from the start, before becoming entangled with it and having it take over your motivations.

I really like this approach, precisely because it is so radical. 

I must admit though that I can not genuinely say that the values and worldview he puts forward are congruent with my deepest values (which is the premise on which the procedure rests), but perhaps that only confirms his pessimism.

   He wants radicalize me into unplugging from the social matrix, stupid metaphor from the matrix, can mean anything, and he failed to describe and illustrate a concrete way of 'unplugging from the matrix's'. sounds like a bunch of alt right virtue signaling and libertarianism. Why not, after all he failed to define his loaded terms so I get to twist the semantics around, so...

   so and so point here, spend time curating your social media feed. How do we go about this? How do we know we should curate our social media feed? What if it's impossible to reconcile and curate, as predatory as capitalism is? Would it be so much better to not even engage with social media, or greatly minimize our time in social media?

   Strongly disagree here with him telling others to be depressed. What a fucking twisted thing to say, given the epidemic of depression, doomers and Incels, given the increases of negativity, what an IRRESPONSIBLE THING TO SAY!! The better suggestion is to SEEK HELP AND SEEK THERAPY, NOT FUCKING REMAIN DEPRESSED!!!

   this diss track is perfect counter to Daniel Schmachtenberger's 'technical hypotheticals in life'

 

[Israfil]

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

Sorry, whatever 'emotional component' of that ridiculous video has, is lacking in realism and concrete examples, to at least show some credibility to his abstract talks. He'll have to better his arguments or rhetoric, or someone better than him can destroy his arguments and make a fool of Daniel Schmachtenberger in public.

I'm in the middle of it. Can't talk directly about the video.

But what I did actually talk about is the effect it had on at least one person (Nilsi) to seek to take more action to solve the problems he delineates. If more people are equally affected, this can mean real change, even if Daniel does not directly propose a solution.

49 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Nilsi

   Yes, please keep personally attacking me and not my arguments.

I'm also curious why you seem so angered by Daniel. hahahahahaha

[Rafael Thundercat]

39 minutes ago, Israfil said:

I'm in the middle of it. Can't talk directly about the video.

But what I did actually talk about is the effect it had on at least one person (Nilsi) to seek to take more action to solve the problems he delineates. If more people are equally affected, this can mean real change, even if Daniel does not directly propose a solution.

I'm also curious why you seem so angered by Daniel. hahahahahaha

So what about the ideia of using group inteligence here and breaking Daniels talks into structured chunks and then using AI to reformat everything in a more narrative call to action way, similar to the way the narrative goes in Global Warming Documentaries that go viral? 

I mean, get the abstract and turn into something one could say to Highschool kids and they would be like : WHOAAAAA!!

 

[Rafael Thundercat]

See nobody was up to the challenge till now:

 

 

[Nilsi]

12 minutes ago, Rafael Thundercat said:

I mean, get the abstract and turn into something one could say to Highschool kids and they would be like : WHOAAAAA!!

 

Working in advertisement/marketing I’ve thought about this a lot. 

Where I do see a lot of potential is using digital billboards and advertisement in public spaces to educate regular folks about things like AI risk, planetary boundaries, species extinction, etc. — statistics and some visuals would probably do the trick.

The thing with this is that these spaces are ubiquitous in densely populated cities and millions of people see multiple of these every day. After some amount of time a lot of this stuff will stick to some extend and inspire dialogue amongst the public.

My company is already working with many NGOs, local governments and the federal government to use these advertisement spaces for dialogue marketing purposes, so that’s definitely something that could be implement on a relatively short time scale.

Edited January 9 by Nilsi

[zurew]

@Rafael Thundercat Try to watch this summary, this might help you sensemake better:

Link to the ppt: https://drive.google.com/file/d/12lxz86Bznxe-8R-iteWZdEgw05SuFrT3/view

Video that talks about the ppt: 

 

[Rafael Thundercat]

8 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Working in advertisement/marketing I’ve thought about this a lot. 

Where I do see a lot of potential is using digital billboards and advertisement in public spaces to educate regular folks about things like AI risk, planetary boundaries, species extinction, etc. — statistics and some visuals would probably do the trick.

The thing with this is that these spaces are ubiquitous in densely populated cities and millions of people see multiple of these every day. After some amount of time a lot of this stuff will stick to some extend and inspire dialogue amongst the public.

My company is already working with many NGOs, local governments and the federal government to use these advertisement spaces for dialogue marketing purposes, so that’s definitely something that could be implement on a relatively short time scale.

True, with all thing that end up entering into the Large public awareness there was always a massive long term expousure to eye ball and ears since humans ahave very short term span of attention, and today we basically live in the Age of Attention of Disattention

Anyway: just also sharing here a tool here: I am using this Search Site very interesting to clear cut search instead of the vicious Google and Edge and others, is called Perplexity. it allows to filter the search better :

https://www.perplexity.ai/

In the left-up there is a opition called : New Thread Cntrl I that opens the folloing box 

 

Edited January 9 by Rafael Thundercat

[Nilsi]

7 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Working in advertisement/marketing I’ve thought about this a lot. 

Where I do see a lot of potential is using digital billboards and advertisement in public spaces to educate regular folks about things like AI risk, planetary boundaries, species extinction, etc. — statistics and some visuals would probably do the trick.

The thing with this is that these spaces are ubiquitous in densely populated cities and millions of people see multiple of these every day. After some amount of time a lot of this stuff will stick to some extend and inspire dialogue amongst the public.

My company is already working with many NGOs, local governments and the federal government to use these advertisement spaces for dialogue marketing purposes, so that’s definitely something that could be implement on a relatively short time scale.

You could have a daily segment that shows a picture of one species that went extinct that day, for example - doesn’t get more emotionally salient than that.

[Nilsi]

23 minutes ago, zurew said:

@Rafael Thundercat Try to watch this summary, this might help you sensemake better:

Link to the ppt: https://drive.google.com/file/d/12lxz86Bznxe-8R-iteWZdEgw05SuFrT3/view

Video that talks about the ppt: 

 

That is a good presentation, but the kind of person that would read something like this, is usually not the kind of person that has a lot of agency to act on any of this stuff.

And your average joe (or CEO for that matter) will certainly not spend the little free time he has researching a topic as complex and nebulous as „The Metacrisis.“

Edited January 9 by Nilsi

[Danioover9000]

@Israfil

1 hour ago, Israfil said:

I'm in the middle of it. Can't talk directly about the video.

But what I did actually talk about is the effect it had on at least one person (Nilsi) to seek to take more action to solve the problems he delineates. If more people are equally affected, this can mean real change, even if Daniel does not directly propose a solution.

I'm also curious why you seem so angered by Daniel. hahahahahaha

   I'm angry because this is personal attacks at me instead of my argument, for the other users.

   About Schmachtenberger's video, I just find it too shallow and too abstract to motivate me into some kind of action, it lacks as an argument if at all other than attacking few people with psychopathy traits. Unbelievable not only demonizing actual psychopaths, but also making fun of and telling people to FEEL MORE DEPRESSED!

   Reminds me of times when people accuse other of schizophrenia, when the fact is that EVERYONE HAS SCHIZOPHRENIA! Everyone has a capacity to self talk, or inner monologue to themselves to some degrees, and then some have catatonic schizophrenia. I hate that simplistic and dehumanization.

Edited January 10 by Danioover9000

[zurew]

33 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

but the kind of person that would read something like this, is usually not the kind of person that has a lot of agency to act on any of this stuff.

And your average joe (or CEO for that matter) will certainly not spend the little free time he has researching a topic as complex and nebulous as „The Metacrisis.“

Thats a seperate issue, but at least because of the guy in the video, we have at least some kind of a structured relatively short summary of the topic. It can be used to lure people in who are kind of curious about these things.

The question of "how to motivate powerful people to understand these things" or "how to make them act  in line with these things" is not directly related to the format how this knowledge presented as, imo.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

Working in advertisement/marketing I’ve thought about this a lot. 

Where I do see a lot of potential is using digital billboards and advertisement in public spaces to educate regular folks about things like AI risk, planetary boundaries, species extinction, etc. — statistics and some visuals would probably do the trick.

Our government places pictures of diseased lungs and rotten teeth and statements like "smoking kills!" (as well as statistics if I remember correctly) on our tobacco products, but people still buy them How do you reliably give up something that is addictive, let alone collectively? It takes massive changes, psychologically, socially, spiritually.

Speaking of individual actions, you can put up posters inside every university toilet, on every bus stop, on your mom's ass. Try fitting something like that on a poster without sounding like a 2012 doomsday lunatic 🤣

Edited January 10 by Carl-Richard

[Danioover9000]

@Carl-Richard

2 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Our government places pictures of diseased lungs and rotten teeth and statements like "smoking kills!" (as well as statistics if I remember correctly) on our tobacco products, but people still buy them How do you reliably give up something that is addictive, let alone collectively? It takes massive changes, psychologically, socially, spiritually.

   I agree with this for the most part. However, the cigarettes I specifically disagree because my first try of them I couldn't handle the smoke or the sensation in my mouth and throat, it felt disgusting to me, and I also inhaled a bit too much so it was all around unpleasant IMO. Cannot and may never will relate to smokers.

[Nilsi]

17 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Our government places pictures of diseased lungs and rotten teeth and statements like "smoking kills!" (as well as statistics if I remember correctly) on our tobacco products, but people still buy them How do you reliably give up something that is addictive, let alone collectively? It takes massive changes, psychologically, socially, spiritually.

Speaking of individual actions, you can put up posters inside every university toilet, on every bus stop, on your mom's ass. Try fitting something like that on a poster without sounding like a 2012 doomsday lunatic 🤣

I dont think this is a fair comparison. These images are literally on the product, so only visible once youve already paid for it - a smoker already knows about the risks and is not going to quit this habit (its the single most addictive substance known to man), just because he sees a disgusting image.

Tobacco sales have been declining for decades though, which is directly traceable to anti-smoking campaigns that have been financed by the government.

Im not suggesting that this will immediately lead to any meaningful change in behavior, but it will at least create some awareness and dialogue around the issue.

If people see a CGI animation of an animal that looks them directly in the eyes with some headline like "human action has led to my species becoming extinct today," I bet you it will trigger a strong emotional respons and facilitate dialogue around this issue. Now do this everyday and people will really get a felt sense for the situation.

A DIN-A4 poster in a college dorm toilet will be quite underwhelming, of course, but what if we did this on large billboards like the following one?:

We could start rolling this out in key cities around the world and it would go ultra viral. I dont think that people would perceive this as lunacy.

Edited January 10 by Nilsi

[Nilsi]

3 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

I dont think this is a fair comparison. These images are literally on the product, so only visible once youve already paid for it - a smoker already knows about the risks and is not going to quit this habit (its the single most addictive substance known to man), just because he sees a disgusting image.

Tobacco sales have been declining for decades though, which is directly traceable to anti-smoking campaigns that have been financed by the government.

Im not suggesting that this will immediately lead to any meaningful change in behavior, but it will at least create some awareness and dialogue around the issue.

If people see a CGI animation of an animal that looks them directly in the eyes with some headline like "human action has led to my species becoming extinct today," I bet you it will trigger a strong emotional respons and facilitate dialogue around this issue. Now do this everyday and people will really get a felt sense for the situation.

A DIN-A4 poster in a college dorm toilet will be quite underwhelming, of course, but what if we did this on large billboards like the following one?:

We could start rolling this out in key cities around the world and it would go ultra viral. I dont think that people would perceive this as lunacy.

This could also be combined with something like Aza Raskins "Earth Species Project," which managed to translate animal communication into human language via AI: https://www.earthspecies.org/

Edited January 10 by Nilsi