Reincarnation and torture

[Circassia To Rostov]

I am an agnostic type who believes in some sort of scientific reincarnation.

If your consciousness arises from seemingly nothing, it would be preposterous to claim you couldn't be reborn again after death.

I do not believe there is anything intrinsically special about human consciousness.  I think we are just more advanced versions of other animals.

Anyways, something has been troubling me as of late. I believe that due to me being reborn an infinite amount of times, one day I will experience extreme torture.

I keep watching those infographics videos about being boiled alive or the brazen bull torture method, and I can't wrap my head around why a loving deity would 

allow this to happen. What is the purpose of putting people through torture. I keep researching the topic and reassuring myself that the pain wouldn't last long. 

I don't fear death or any other emotional pain. The only thing I fear insanely is extreme physical pain. Furthermore, I understand why pain is necessary in life. If you 

don't have pain, you can't feel pleasure. Regardless, the fact that a human can be boiled alive is extremely disturbing. Why can this exist in the grand scheme of 

things? What do you guys think?

[Ima Freeman]

I was thinking about that too. 
Pain is terrifying. 

[Javfly33]

why you assume you will be reborn an infinite amount of times? The whole purpose of liberation is to stop the cycle of birth and death. 

[Water by the River]

If it is assumed that the side of the spectrum you mention is possible concerning reincarnation/other dreams (the bad ones), why not contemplate the other side of the spectrum (the good ones)? 

• Jürgen Ziewe, Multidimensional Man
• Jürgen Ziewe, Vistas of Infinity
• Jürgen Ziewe, Elysium Unveiled (breathtakingly beautiful)
• Robert Monroes books
• David Spandler, Subtle Worlds. An Explorer’s Field Note
• William Buhlman, all books
• Grof, Books of the Dead Manuals for Living and Dying
• Grof,Beyond Death.The Gates of Consciousness
• More on request

Seriously, don't destroy your life with this horror-line of thinking and going down that rabbit-hole.

Consider especially taking a look at Jürgen Ziewes Elysium Unveiled. There are a few horror-scenarios inside (as with the other books also), but the rest is of breathtaking beauty.

If the possibility of other dreams in Infinite Consciousness/reincarnation is maintained, why not let the beautiful geenie (video above) also out of the bottle?

Of course, none of that has to be believed for realizing what Reality really is. The nature of Reality/Infinite Consciousness is always right here right now, covered by clouds of illusory separation/ignorance.

And what You really are can never be harmed (no moving parts).

Selling Water by the River

[Water by the River]

32 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

The whole purpose of liberation is to stop the cycle of birth and death. 

Why do you assume the cycle of existences stops with liberation? There are many voices and spiritual traditions (most of them) stating that Enlightenment is only the beginning of new, liberated and more awake/nondual forms of being/manifestation/wakeful dreams.

Liberation/Enlightenment to stop the cycle of birth and death sounds very much like early buddhism (Hinanyana). 

Enlightened Mindstreams/beings don't stop (no dropping dead upon Enlightenment), they become nondual and non-separated, liberated and free. So why should there be no continuation after shedding this form-body (in whatever form or place)? There will not be much separate-anything left, but some more awake and liberated tendencies/Karma (in the case of a liberated being of course more liberated and awake).

Among the spiritual traditions, pretty much only early Buddhism proclaimed the stop of cycle of birth and death, or no other existence.

And the "Enlightenment"-ideal of early Buddhism was mainly cessation, not so much nondual realization in daily life, or Full Enlightenment. Latest with Mahayana, Buddhism changed its course dramatically on that. 

Selling Water by the River

Edited January 5, 2024 by Water by the River

[Osaid]

4 hours ago, Circassia To Rostov said:

I believe that due to me being reborn an infinite amount of times, one day I will experience extreme torture.

Non sequitur.

Consciousness has nothing to do with being reborn an infinite amount of times, that is impossible to directly experience and it is a relative scenario. You are conflating things. You are anthropomorphizing consciousness by adding some intention to it, as if it has some job to reincarnate people.

You don't even know what the weather is going to be tomorrow, let alone what happens after death. Your experience says nothing of it, so live from that experience.

[Breakingthewall]

4 hours ago, Circassia To Rostov said:

Anyways, something has been troubling me as of late. I believe that due to me being reborn an infinite amount of times, one day I will experience extreme torture.

According to that line of thought, you could say that you have already experienced infinite torture. It wasn't that bad in the end, right? if you don't even remember, just a Monday. There would also be wonderful moments, flying like an eagle and all that. It is the price of existence, yin and yang.

 Think that a Sioux warrior and all those prehistoric guys considered an honor and a privilege to be tortured, to be able to show their courage to the great spirit and their ancestors. 

1 hour ago, Water by the River said:

 

 

1 hour ago, Water by the River said:

• Jürgen Ziewe, Multidimensional Man
• Jürgen Ziewe, Vistas of Infinity
• Jürgen Ziewe, Elysium Unveiled (breathtakingly beautiful)
• Robert Monroes books
• David Spandler, Subtle Worlds. An Explorer’s Field Note
• William Buhlman, all books
• Grof, Books of the Dead Manuals for Living and Dying
• Grof,Beyond Death.The Gates of Consciousness
• More on request

Wrote down 

 

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

2 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

The whole purpose of liberation is to stop the cycle of birth and death. 

Noooope. The whole purpose of liberation is to fall in love with the cycle of birth and death. ☯️

 

Edited January 5, 2024 by Bazooka Jesus

[inFlow]

@Circassia To Rostov You do not have enough consciousness to see what you ACTUALLY are. Which you are the "soul" or what ever you wanna call it, soul/spirit/consciousness. So you choose to accept only what you see and wrap your mind on. Believe me looking at the world this way is very limiting.

Blaming "God" or this "loving deity" that you are talking about, is just wrong. You don't understand how reality works. There are karmic rules put on this reality right as God was creating this universe. Once you awaken to such things you understand that God was very intelligent about this when creating reality. He doesn't punish you per-say, but you get what you deserve according to the laws of KARMA. Very few people actually understand this, because you need a really deep awakening into what karma is in order to understand what is being said. You hear it all the time, but you don't know if it's true until you understand it / have experience of karma. I have reached such understandings myself and it humbles you to watch out what you are doing and you try to interfere with this LAW OF KARMA to the minimum. As I see drunk/homeless people I understand that they are living their karma, they are there for a reason and it will take them thousands and thousands of lifetimes to "clear/clean" that karma.

I didn't have a father and was stupid my entire life. This isn't the fault of my father or anyone external of me, I earned this because it's my KARMA. And I own and accept this Truth. I don't blame God or anyone else but ME. I got what I deserve. This is very hard to accept because the mind wants to point fingers and blame everything else but yourself. It takes integrity to accept that you get what you actually deserve.

All of this sounds woo woo, but if you can't accept what is being said then it's your problem.

[Javfly33]

1 hour ago, Water by the River said:

 

Enlightened Mindstreams/beings don't stop (no dropping dead upon Enlightenment), they become nondual and non-separated, liberated and free. So why should there be no continuation after shedding this form-body (in whatever form or place)? There will not be much separate-anything left, but some more awake and liberated tendencies/Karma (in the case of a liberated being of course more liberated and awake).

Among the spiritual traditions, pretty much only early Buddhism proclaimed the stop of cycle of birth and death, or no other existence.

And the "Enlightenment"-ideal of early Buddhism was mainly cessation, not so much nondual realization in daily life, or Full Enlightenment. Latest with Mahayana, Buddhism changed its course dramatically on that. 

Selling Water by the River

Is definetely an assumption, I haven't liberated myself to conclude that Existence as physical form ends there.

It definetely scares me to think that total liberation implies being gone forever as a form.

Quote

There are many voices and spiritual traditions (most of them) stating that Enlightenment is only the beginning of new, liberated and more awake/nondual forms of being/manifestation/wakeful dreams.

I guess there is a possibility to reach certain state of Liberation, and keep playing the game, and even re-incarnate several times to keep trying to 'wake-up' the rest of your creation (beings). But this is also speculation. It sounds good. 

 

[inFlow]

1 minute ago, Javfly33 said:

I guess there is a possibility to reach certain state of Liberation, and keep playing the game, and even re-incarnate several times to keep trying to 'wake-up' the rest of your creation (beings). But this is also speculation. It sounds good. 

 

There is a wonderful mantra:

"Aghoranna Paro Mantra Nasti Tatvam Guru Param"

"No mantra is greater than aghor mantra and no element is greater than guru." (there is no higher purpose in this worlds other than to be a Guru)

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

10 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

It definetely scares me to think that total liberation implies being gone forever as a form.

Ain't no such thing as existence without form... and even if there was, it wouldn't be a thing to experience. So what the heck is there to be scared about?

 

Edited January 5, 2024 by Bazooka Jesus

[Soul Flight]

@Circassia To Rostov

All is one. You are god and you are everybody else. It is the monad, brahman, and Dao. Separation is an illusion. The duality reduces to the monad. You may get reincarnated and go back in time and be your current sibling, friend, coworker, parent, etc. So they are you at this very moment. This applies to all of history.

Another thought is maybe in some other dimension we actually volunteer for experiences like torture. It may be the most sought after reincarnation.

Another thought is dualism and the two black and white fishes going around in the yin yang symbol. So after infinite reincarnations, 50% of them are bad and 50% of them good. It all averages out. The torture will be balanced by euphoria and bliss.

Stop thinking and live. Just be. You are mentally masturbating yourself and avoiding the real work. All is distraction. The Hindu Maya. Follow the Hindu Lila. Good luck!

[Purple Man]

10 hours ago, Water by the River said:

 

•  
• Jürgen Ziewe, Elysium Unveiled (breathtakingly beautiful)
•  

 

WBTR, is this book an image-only recreation of the scenarios Ziewe found in his OBE´s or are there explanations on each view? Is he himself the artist?

Edited January 5, 2024 by Purple Man

[Water by the River]

1 hour ago, Purple Man said:

WBTR, is this book an image-only recreation of the scenarios Ziewe found in his OBE´s or are there explanations on each view? Is he himself the artist?

There is also a lot of explanations of his OBEs inside. He writes quite alot about the realms, mechanisms and phenomena that he describes in the books in more detail. They align with Buhlman, Spandler, Monroe, Grof and so on.

He is for sure not the only or first one exploring these areas in OBEs. History of full of reports like this from mystics before (Dante, Swedenborg, Spandler, the descriptions of Grof... all the myths and books of the dead, all cultures & all centuries).

He created the images himself with the help of AI. He is a professional Illustrator, so that also helped. It is a work of astounding beauty.

In the video staring at 1min 40 (below)you can see some of the text, although it is more text than visible due to the zoom-in in the video.

Selling Jürgen Ziewes & various other OBEs by the River

[Breakingthewall]

With the issue of reincarnation we imagine a similar experience, with subject, object and development, but who knows how things can be. everything is absolutely enigmatic, the depth of reality is unfathomable. 

[seriousman24]

You know how everyone like to talk about how everything's already perfect and love, well don't worry to much we are also already in hell, ANY suffering no matter how lame, weird, unique or how small is "hell", we are already in hell too, we just don't take small sufferings seriously, we only need to learn that ANY suffering is "bad", real and valid, like fearing the color blue, the true confusion does emerge because suffering only exists because of "pleasure" but pleasure can exist without pain or suffering and hence we forget suffering, the trick here is to complete our personal stories/journeys where all your personal pleasures merge so harmoniously that they loopback into creating a true unique "ego", identity/identifier which has the advantages of the form of "suffering" without suffering, this enables multiple different supreme beings to exist at the same time in an individualized and interactable domain.


Even bhudda or whoever anyone looks up to as the most supreme CANNOT handle even a single moment of an ant's SMALLEST suffering, they CAN however enjoy an ant's bliss while a less developed being might not, in other words for an ant having to move 1 cm extra due to an obstacle might be an infinitively small "pain/suffering" due to the extra energy required to process the obstacle created by that slight extra movement for a "supreme being" a 1 cm movement is also just as "horrific" even though they ARE supreme and for them that would be even TRILLIONS of time less infinite suffering(like billions of times easier than moving a finger) they would still choose not to suffer it, the point is we are only going to get "somewhere" different with joy/pleasure/bliss, if that 1 cm movement can be like the enjoyment of a dance then perhaps it has some value now, so it DOES not matter how silly a suffering is, at that given time and state it is utterly real same as any silly and even "evil" pleasures, evil gets more complex but it's basically the same thing but we'd have to understand both bliss/love and suffering at the same time to truly get "evil".

That said this all just a real story for fun.

[Purple Man]

On 5/1/2024 at 10:54 PM, Water by the River said:

There is also a lot of explanations of his OBEs inside. He writes quite alot about the realms, mechanisms and phenomena that he describes in the books in more detail. They align with Buhlman, Spandler, Monroe, Grof and so on.

He is for sure not the only or first one exploring these areas in OBEs. History of full of reports like this from mystics before (Dante, Swedenborg, Spandler, the descriptions of Grof... all the myths and books of the dead, all cultures & all centuries).

He created the images himself with the help of AI. He is a professional Illustrator, so that also helped. It is a work of astounding beauty.

In the video staring at 1min 40 (below)you can see some of the text, although it is more text than visible due to the zoom-in in the video.

Selling Jürgen Ziewes & various other OBEs by the River

Thank you for the explanation. I´ve watched some Ziewe´s videos and he seems legit and interesting. BTW, Michael Szype´s "Love Light", that you recommended me, is such a rare book. It´s like it was written to solve my particular doubts...

[Schizophonia]

I have a video on my PC of a prisoner from what appears to be a cartel having his heart ripped out while he's still alive, and another in Africa where a guy has his eye gouged out.
I also experienced the bestgore.com era...

Yeah, our lives are a blessing compared to the infinity of possibilities.

[Water by the River]

1 hour ago, Purple Man said:

Thank you for the explanation. I´ve watched some Ziewe´s videos and he seems legit and interesting.

Ziewe has a legit Full Enlightenment experience description in his book "The Ten Minute Moment" which is very very hard to just make up in the form he describes.

1 hour ago, Purple Man said:

BTW, Michael Szype´s "Love Light", that you recommended me, is such a rare book. It´s like it was written to solve my particular doubts...

Shhhh, or else the metaphysical Love=Absolute aficionados could get a challenge that suddenly a legit nondual realizer has had the Godhead-Absolute Reality-Love-Light realization as foundation of Reality/Absolute also, but on a more stable basis and not only a temporary state - and also values and emphasizes its importance a lot! Seen from that perspective, the only thing that is missing a bit is that Szyper starts talking about some advanced Alien-level-stuff, but you never know... ( :

By the way, Ziewe has some literal Aliens, and also some more metaphysical Alien-Level-realizations descriptions in his books (Multidimensional Man mainly).

Selling Love Light by the River