Spirituality Looks Like Schizophrenia?

[electroBeam]

Last night I felt like reminiscing through my past to try and experience what it was like to truly believe in science and the physical world again, and decided to look for a crystal that my great grandmother gave me when i was 5. The crystal was always peculiar to me, it came from my great grandmother's crystal collection. She use to go around collecting crystals vigorously, though nobody knows why. She was diagnosed with schizophrenia, and consequently she sometimes use to seem like she was talking to ghosts, and other schizophrenic things. I felt so sorry for her, because she seemed so crazy and disconnected from this world.

She seemed so deluded to me, from my perspective as a teenager. I could not understand how she could actually believe the things she said she believed in and 'saw'. She use to talk about seeing spirits and connecting with them, she use to use ouja boards to speak to the dead, etc etc. It intrigued me to try and feel what shes feeling, to try and actually be in a state where you believe those things,  because back then science had a firm grip on me.

But now things are very different. While I dont tell anyone, the stuff that experienced from meditation and spirituality is just as crazy, if not more crazy than the stuff my grandmother talked about.

And its not just me, if you go watch Leo's dark side of meditation video, you'll see that its a universal theme.

Spirituality is so radical and crazy that if you told someone your experiences, you would be called schizophrenic in an instant. That's why we dont tell anyone, because there are harsh consequences. 

But what if someone got so involved in spirituality that they just had to tell someone? And that everything they were seeing was valid to some extent? 

What if that person was my great grandmother? What if she wasnt deluded, but just saw things for how they actually were?

-----

Or what if it was the opposite?

Can't you see that the proposal that all of us arent seeing god, or mystical experiences, but are just seeing hallucinations is a valid point to make?

It might seem silly to you to even consider that spirituality is just a form of our imagination, just one big dream. But you know what? It also seemed silly to my grandmother to think that she had schizophrenia.

How would you feel if you for whatever reason were taken to the hospital, and were given schizophrenic tablets, and as soon as you took them and tried to look up actualized or leo's videos, or adyshanti's videos, discovered that you couldnt find them because it was all a hallucination?

 

There are some clear signs of an unhealthy mind, like lake of iq or eq, but for me the lines between someone having a mental disorder and someone just having spiritual experiences are becoming very very blurred to me. Especially mental disorders like schizophrenia.

[Prabhaker]

14 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

but for me the lines between someone having a mental disorder and someone just having spiritual experiences are becoming very very blurred to me.

Every medical college should teach the doctors a special course – that there are people who are not really insane: don’t treat them, otherwise you will disturb them for their whole life. Your medicines, your electric shocks, your tranquilizers, your injections, are dangerous if the person is suffering from spiritual-madness.

Spiritual basically drives you mad so that you can go beyond madness. Once you have passed that barrier you will never be mad; once you have passed that barrier you are a totally different kind of man. A new man is born. A great grace descends, and joy and peace and equilibrium.

20 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

Spirituality is so radical and crazy that if you told someone your experiences, you would be called schizophrenic in an instant. That's why we dont tell anyone, because there are harsh consequences. 

It is madness, but it is higher than what you call sanity. There are two kinds of madness. Madness simply means out of the mind. You can be out of the mind, falling below the mind – that’s where insanity starts. But you can also be out of the mind going beyond the mind – that’s where meditation starts. In one sense they are similar in that both are out of the mind. Hence one can feel, living in the beauty of the present moment, as if it is madness, because madness and meditation have a similarity but only on one point: both happen outside the mind. In every other sense they are different.

To go below the mind means to become unconscious. To go beyond the mind means to become superconscious. And the superconscious and unconscious are as distinct as two things can be, as far away from each other as there is possibility. They have nothing in common except that one point. Hence in the beginning every meditator feels that it is something like madness. But it is saner than your sanity. You have to wait a little, to become acquainted with the new territory of the world of meditation. Others may also think that you are mad, because sometimes you will be doing things like a madman. But the basic difference is that no madman ever acknowledges, ever accepts that he is mad. He refuses it vehemently. You can go to any madhouse, not a single madman will accept that he is mad. 

[Martin123]

@electroBeam we are all mad, some of us are just brave enough to admit it :-p. 

 

What you call schizophrenia was in certain cultures celebrated as the ability of a prophet.

[Franz]

Greeting fellow Leo-impersonating Avatar User,

This Video here changed the way I think about Schizophrenia and Mental Illness in general (also related to psychedelics):

 

[Deep]

@electroBeam Today, someone like Ramakrishna (19th & 20th century yogi) would be considered schizophrenic because he was able to interact with Goddess Kali. He was able to see her more clearly than he saw people. Maybe it was true for him. Spirituality is a very subjective experience. It's wrong to force everyone to be the same. That's how the world takes away our individuality. 

I used to work in a lab. I realized science is also subjective to a certain extent. When I was collecting data, my mind was projecting onto the experiment. That's why there is lots of politics in science as well. 

I agree that suspecting hallucinations is a valid point. The problem is that most people are in the dream state so it would be hard for them to believe any of this stuff. It would be better to keep it to oneself. When you have a real spiritual experience, you'll know it's not hallucination because it's millions of times more intense than what you're experiencing right now. 

I would be angry about getting schizophrenic tablets. It's fucking stupid to prescribe unnecessary pills. Leo's videos are a part of the dream state even though they help people. 

[jse]

Schizophrenia literally means the splitting of the mind, or a split personality.

I would imagine that spirituality would be the opposite, the integration of all aspects of our being into One.

 

 

Edited April 7, 2017 by jse

[Martin123]

@jse yes  you can imagine it as that what people normally call ego, is actually this superorganism of whole bunch of mini egoes, or mini entities.

Schizophrenia happens when some mini egoes don't really remember each other and seem seperate.

 

Therefor in my opinion, schizophrenia is curable through integration work. In fact, if one followed the path of healing and wholeness it might not be even a disadvantage from the avarage person on the same path. :-)

[Prabhaker]

7 hours ago, Annetta said:

mental illness vs. spirituality

@jse  Western psychology has never looked upwards. It has never worked with meditators. Western psychology has been avoiding facing the reality of the higher states of mind.

Jesus was not part of the old conditioned mind. At that time deprogrammer psychologists had not arrived; otherwise Jesus would have been saved from crucifixion. Just deprogramming would have been enough. He had just to be constantly hammered: ’’You are not the only son of God. Drop this nonsense. If you are the messiah for whom the whole Judaic tradition is waiting, let them recognize you. Why do you go on shouting that you are the awaited messiah?” It would have been very easy to deprogram that poor carpenter, but the psychologists were not around there.

[Heart of Space]

If this is schizophrenia then it's pretty awesome to be crazy.  I welcome it.  

[Arkandeus]

one only needs to meditate for 5 min to feel to feel clarity, to feel lightness, to feel relief from all that is not true.  
there couldn't be any greater proof of the nature of spirituality. 
The truth is in how you feel deep in your heart, you have inside you the answer to every question in the universe, to listen and trust your heart is the highest form of 'thinking'. 

 

Edited April 8, 2017 by Arkandeus

[zazed]

It's sad how society views such things, the entire world suffers from xenophobia.
Does it even matter if what she saw was real or not? The only things that should matter are:

1. Was your grandmother unhappy ?
2. Were her beliefs endangering the lives of others ?
3. Were her beliefs endangering her own life ?

If on each of the 3 the answer is no, then there is no reason for treatment or cure.
Society strives to much for what it thinks is "normal", its just a perspective. 

Perhaps we are all deluding ourselves here, but if we can find peace of mind and a happy life through it. Does it matter?

Truth is overrated...

@jseSchizo is not split personality however. That is how it was presented by Hollywood and as such most people misunderstand schizo.
Spiritual practice is about seperation of body, thinking, memory, perception for many. Enlightenment fits certain schizo definitions, if you become pure perception, you are "split" from body and memory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia :
The word schizophrenia—which translates roughly as "splitting of the mind" and comes from the Greek roots schizein (σχίζειν, "to split") and phrēn, phren- (φρήν, φρεν-, "mind")[175]—was coined by Eugen Bleuler in 1908 and was intended to describe the separation of function between personality, thinking, memory, and perception. 

Schizophrenia is a mental disorder characterized by abnormal social behavior and failure to understand what is real.[2] Common symptoms include false beliefs, unclear or confused thinking, hearing voices that others do not hear, reduced social engagement and emotional expression, and a lack of motivation.[2][3] People with schizophrenia often have additional mental-health problems such as anxiety disorders, major depressive illness, or substance-use disorders.[7] Symptoms typically come on gradually, begin in young adulthood, and last a long time.[3][8]

Its like a description of my life situation, don't tell anyone, i don't want to be hospitalized... 

[Scholar]

I think there might be a confusion here. It's not the content of consciousness that causes delusion, it is the belief that it is reality that is delusion. The point is, no matter what she saw, it wasn't real. No matter what you see, it's not real. The assumption of reality is delusional in itself.

In this way, your grandmother was no different from someone like Stephen Hawking. Spirituality is not about finding a different reality, it is the absence of it. It's strange to even put into words, but it's the going away ofreality that will show you true reality.

 

Sit down and see a ghost, and say "Oh look, a ghost!", you are delusional.

Sit down and see a tree, and say "Oh look, a tree!", you are delusional.

Sit down and see, and you are free of delusion.

 

The delusion lies in taking expirience and putting it into thoughts. As soon as a thought arises, delusion arises. It's like the thought is delusion, that means no matter what thought you have, it is by it's nature delusion.

 

Just notice that Samadhi is not an altercation of something, it's not an addition of something. Instead it is simply the absence of something.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Scholar

[Just Do Nothing]

My grandmother has always been devoutly religious and connected to something... 

I'd spent my whole life time laughing at her until recently.. Now I'm starting to feel like I may be catching on to what she is is connected too. 

My schizophrenic father had always told me not to mock her and had told me that she is wiser than I think...

I think that their is definitely a link. I also definitely think that I should not speak of my spiritual experiences to avoid getting a tag as a crazed person. Perhaps schizophrenia is when people have spiritual experiences that they did not intend for and get freaked out by it and feel that they have to tell the world? 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2017 by Just Do Nothing

[electroBeam]

@zazed you must have been Pascal in your past life (pascal's wager)

 

@Scholar is anything real truly though? Does truth even exist? 

[zazed]

@electroBeam Had to look up pascal's wager now, I learn something new everyday here  

@Annetta I don't see how mental disease is not getting its rightful place here.

For one, linking to wikipedia, and reading up on the facts, is important. Know and understand, I watched your video's and enjoyed the insight, thank you. People will notice it is mostly about the negative effects on the patient lives, that are the final deciding factor in diagnoses. 
What you will also notice, psychological disorders are NEVER black and white. They come in various shades of grey, and you can have it slightly with some of the symptoms, or you have it full blown and are incapable of functioning at all in life.

On the other hand, its not because @electroBeam grandmother was diagnosed, that is was truly so, neither that it was fully negative, nor that is was full blown completely dysfunctional.  Many Christians have pictures of saints and pray to god, claiming to hear him. They don't get diagnosed as anything.

In the end, it matters most, what effect it has on life. When i was briefly a wiccan as a teen, i was fully into it and conversed with trees and animals with people hearing me. I had conversations with the moon and the sun. I went to the forest at night alone, to find a magical branch for my spells. I had imaginary sex with the goddess, whatever that means . But i was happy and at peace, and i was still functioning in life, going to school, doing social activities, getting good grades.

I've long thought i had mental disorders. If i read about bipolar, i have many of those issues. Same with schizo. Same with borderline disorder.
As such i read a lot about that stuff, because i worried if i had it, and i was too afraid to tell anyone, so i studied it. I also had a close friend who was getting a master in psychology, and talked to him about certain facets academically. I learned most of it can apply to anyone one way or the other, almost no one is 100% guaranteed normal, everyone is broken in some way. 
Read enough about psychology, and soon you realize that basically everyone has a disorder in some form and weight.

[Scholar]

47 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

@zazed you must have been Pascal in your past life (pascal's wager)

 

@Scholar is anything real truly though? Does truth even exist? 

Truth is what it is, a thought.

You still confuse and mix everything up. Truth is truth, there is nothing true about it, yet it is simply truth. Is anything truly real? Well, truly real is truly real. Everything else is everything else.

This is the confusion I was referring when giving the example of seeing a tree.

You see a tree, and you say "Oh look a tree!". This is the confusion. Seeing a tree is seeing a tree, it's not a tree. The thought of seeing a tree is the thought of seeing a tree, not the tree. The tree is just the tree.

Spirituality is operating beyond language, which is why it leads to so much confusion. Language is about confusion and delusion, spirituality is simply about what is.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Scholar

[zazed]

@Annetta That is some good electronic music my friend, i'm putting bassnectar in my playlists.  

[Martin123]

@Arkandeus
"The Heart centered spiritual path, is the most direct one"
- Matt Kahn

[abrakamowse]

1 Corinthians 2:14
King James Version (KJV)

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Edited April 8, 2017 by abrakamowse

[abrakamowse]

The brain changes depending of the thoughts we get attached. I know is hard when you are very bad mentally (I am talking from experience) but in my experience the problems with schizophrenia and other mental disorders  is a problem of identity. 

At least that was what took me out of a big depression with some psychotic episodes. I was trying to fight against reality with my ego, and that obviously doesn't work. I denied my true self so much that I believed I was my thoughts, and thoughts are chaotic by themselves.

In my opinion, the mental disorder is one of the ways of nature to let you know, there's something wrong here. Something you need to see and experience more than your mind.

The physical appearance of the brain (as one mentioned that you can be ill because your brain is not OK) is a reflection of us. So, if there's a damaged brain is because we need to experience that. There's nothing wrong in "what is" or "reality". What seems to be "wrong" is wrong from the ego point of view.

 

Edited April 8, 2017 by abrakamowse