Of course our true being can suffer

[Javfly33]

There is this belief going on our true being cant suffer, that is always at peace, that is the true happiness, that is beyond everything 

That is the most shit ive ever Heard. If one ever awakens clearly enough one Will realize ONLY our being is capable of suffering. An object can not suffer. A body can not suffer and a mind can not suffer. They are not subjects or beings, they are not something "Alive" in the sense our being Is.

Therefore, of course God/You/Truth can suffer. Is actually the ONLY thing capable of suffering. Your ego or Mind can not suffer because is not real or sentient awareness. They are objects, as a machine or a car. They dont care if you suffer for 1million years. 

Edited January 2 by Javfly33

[Princess Arabia]

Suffering is an illusion. It is an appearance. God does not suffer. What does God have to suffer about. It is everything.

[Nathan]

By that rhetoric how is God able to empathise with the felt experience of suffering an entity experiences whilst beleiving they are separate? 

Whenever I suffer I conceptualise god as an out of touch perspective divorced from the felt experience of suffering.

I can sometimes be in a state where I am able to recognise how suffering can be a vehicle to greater compassion but to subject a less aware perspective to suffering without their awareness of its utility (no ability for informed consent) seems antithetical to compassion to me.

It's kind of hard to convey what I really mean because suffering is a topic that I always get stuck on to be honest. I just can't condone suffering in good faith from any vantage point I've lived so far so whenever I suffer I'm always extremely resentful about it. 

[gettoefl]

let alone god, even a guy like jesus was beyond any suffering ... he incurred the worst savagery to demonstrate it's nothing and teach it can be likewise

whatever a person believes they undergo and thereby teach

Edited January 3 by gettoefl

[Applegarden8]

No, you are bliss itself. The moment you tap into it your delusions that suffocate you relaxes.

[Yimpa]

9 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

Suffering is an illusion. It is an appearance. God does not suffer. What does God have to suffer about. It is everything.

God can indeed suffer. Radical Acceptance is about fully embracing all aspects of yourself, including ones that seem like insanity.

[Yimpa]

What may cause you the greatest suffering is the realization that you can never bring your closest attachments to Truth. It’s by design that they are limited and ignorant, not because they’re not Truth, but because Truth is beyond them.

[cetus]

Resistance to what is = suffering. No resistance, no suffering.

Edited January 3 by cetus

[Water by the River]

@Javfly33

As Cetus writes: 

46 minutes ago, cetus said:

Resistance to what is = suffering. No resistance, no suffering.

If you truly are the awake Infinite Totality on a deep identity level (Full Enlightenment into Absolute Reality itself, preferably as stable as possible in daily life, Peak to plateau to permanent), Infinite Reality itself.... would you resist yourself? Of course not.

Remaining suffering/resistance shows where the separation from the Totality (aka separate-self/separation-elements of the ego) are still well and alive playing their game:

• a) desiring an experience and not getting it and suffering/resisting while doing that, or
• b) wanting an un-pleasurable experience to go away, and suffering/resisting that that is not happening/appearing.

It is a hint of God/Reality (so to say) to highlight certain not yet enlightened elements of the mindstream, remaining false identities of something separate still emerging.

20 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

Therefore, of course God/You/Truth can suffer. Is actually the ONLY thing capable of suffering. Your ego or Mind can not suffer because is not real or sentient awareness. They are objects, as a machine or a car. They dont care if you suffer for 1million years. 

To be precise: God/True You/Truth/Reality CONTAINS the (illusionary or mere appearing) appearance/arising of suffering/resistance. The ego or mind IS an appearance, and very often IS the suffering/resistance (when resisting what is). Yet, it is AS real (or unreal) as every other experience/arising/appearance. So very real enough to cause appearing/arising suffering/resisting in a not fully enlightened perspective/being.

The sentient awareness is not suffering, it contains as appearance/arising the suffering.

"The" sentient awareness is totally empty and impersonal, and yet "it" is also all that arises - nondual and infinite. "It" can never be located, it is the Totality seeing itself in a nondual way, without any separate anything pulling the nondual unity apart into duality. That awakened nondual enlightened state alone (which is also the true natural state btw. if no illusion is appearing/arising in it) is free of suffering/resistance. Resistance/suffering (another word for separate-self/separate ego arisings) ends this awakened nondual state faster than one can say "duality".

That is not only my claim, but the claim of many humans that have realized their True Identity, over all ages, cultures, places, and found freedom from resisting/suffering/self-contracting....

But to truly understand and realize that, a big clap of the one hand is necessary. 

You practice, which is what counts. So, bon voyage....

Selling Water by the River

PS: Back from vacation, and happy new year to everyone!

Edited January 3 by Water by the River

[Javfly33]

4 hours ago, Water by the River said:

 

The sentient awareness is not suffering, it contains as appearance/arising the suffering.

"The" sentient awareness is totally empty and impersonal, and yet "it" is also all that arises - nondual and infinite. "It" can never be located, it is the Totality seeing itself in a nondual way, without any separate anything pulling the nondual unity apart into duality. 

You are basically denying something that is way too obvious here.

You might be talking from a realized place, but for that one that is not realized, suffering will be inevitable due to identification/ignorance/sleep state.

I don´t know why you guys have such a hard time accepting that Reality/You/Being can indeed suffer. It might not be forever, it might be as an illusion, but it definetely does. 

Sugar coating things will not help people to awaken/liberate themselves. What you guys are doing is immature and irresponsible for the well being of our being. 

Edited January 3 by Javfly33

[Thought Art]

Your true self can't really suffer.

It can only suffer in relative ways. As in, imagining it is human.

[Water by the River]

5 hours ago, Water by the River said:

The sentient awareness is not suffering, it contains as appearance/arising the suffering.

"The" sentient awareness is totally empty and impersonal, and yet "it" is also all that arises - nondual and infinite. "It" can never be located, it is the Totality seeing itself in a nondual way, without any separate anything pulling the nondual unity apart into duality

 

52 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

You are basically denying something that is way too obvious here.

You might be talking from a realized place, but for that one that is not realized, suffering will be inevitable due to identification/ignorance/sleep state.

I never denied that from the perspective of separation/duality/separate ego there is suffering. I agree on the first two statements (above) from you.

Actually, I wrote:

5 hours ago, Water by the River said:

The ego or mind IS an appearance, and very often IS the suffering/resistance (when resisting what is)

And that suffering is as real or unreal as everything else. So from the perspective of the separate self it is very (!) real.

Separate Self/unenlightened mindsteam = frequent suffering/resistance. First Noble Truth: Suffering. Unsatisfying. I would be the last one to deny that.

52 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

I don´t know why you guys have such a hard time accepting that Reality/You/Being can indeed suffer. It might not be forever, it might be as an illusion, but it definetely does. 

Here it depends on what is meant with Reality/You/Being. I assume that for me the referent or meaning of these words/signifiers is something different than for you. 

Maybe lets leave it open what the true potential of the True Reality of you really is? 

52 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

Sugar coating things will not help people to awaken/liberate themselves. What you guys are doing is immature and irresponsible for the well being of our being. 

In my perspective it would be unresonsible to not testify on the release of suffering in truly awakened nondual states. 

Especially if these awakened nondual states are not just temporary highs, but a reality that has become very reliably available right here and now, just by reaching out... 

Selling "the possibility of an end of resistance/suffering to what is arising in the Nondual Reality that You really are" by the River

[Breakingthewall]

Suffering is the engine of the evolution of life, without suffering there is stillness, and life is not still, it is cyclical and in perpetual motion. The human ego is alive and constantly evolving, and its share of suffering is inevitable. If all humans were like Ramana Maharshi, without ego, meditating all day, they would disappear. Suffering is necessary to create. The thing is to suffer with sportsmanship, knowing that suffering is an evolutionary tool that allows us to deepen our consciousness and expand our lives.

 It is possible to be able to access states free of suffering, to leave human life at will, but there will always be moments when life catches you.

[Princess Arabia]

1 hour ago, Javfly33 said:

don´t know why you guys have such a hard time accepting that Reality/You/Being can indeed suffer. It might not be forever, it might be as an illusion, but it definetely does. 

Sugar coating things will not help people to awaken/liberate themselves. What you guys are doing is immature and irresponsible for the well being of our being. 

This is what I have a HUGE problem with. Do you want Truth or do you want delusion. It's one thing to know the Truth but still live within the illusion knowing it's just an illusion and even feeling the realness of it. 

I think you're the one being immature and irresponsible for not trying to at least see another's perspective on the topic at hand. Not saying either is correct but you're not interested in asking how one derived at what they're saying or even enquire deeper to see if maybe you're missing something first before you so push your insight without leaving any room for another perspective. 

I said what I said up top and I could be wrong, but that's my perspective; but I'm still open to hearing other's as it may shed some light unto mine and may broaden it or even change because I was shown something otherwise that I might not have previously recognized.

Sometimes it gets confusing when talking about this stuff because Self, self, being, ego, you, I etc can be misinterpreted while one could be referring to the "small" self the interpretation could be meant to imply the "higher" self. 

I still stick to my original post when i said God does not suffer. God just Is. How can God suffer. Yes, there appears to be suffering, but it's just an appearance. Appearing from Consciousness. If you look in a mirror and see a reflection of yourself, is that reflection you, can the reflection walk away without you walking away. No. If there is visible suffering showing on your person and you look in the mirror and you see yourself reflection suffering, did the mirror do that. Is the mirror suffering. No. Well, God is that mirror. If two people are fighting in a room is the space in the room feeling the effects of the fight. No. God is like that space in the room. God cannot be touched. It is omnipotent and omnipresent. It is like the space from which everything appears even suffering. It can become all these things but in it's original form it is no-thing and no-thing can suffer because it is that which the suffering is arising from. 

Now, someone please tell me if I'm wrong here because maybe I'm all confused and need some clarity. 

[Water by the River]

1 minute ago, Breakingthewall said:

 It is possible to be able to access states free of suffering, to leave human life at will, but there will always be moments when life catches you.

Sure. Ken Wilber said in the Interview-Series "Cosmic Consciousness" to Tami Simon that nobody on the planet is resting 24/7 in his True Nondual Being, enlightened or not.

When True Reality clouds over with remaining ignorance, it is a hint from Reality which parts of the separate self are not yet seen through and still have the potential to "cloud" awakened Nonduality/Awareness.

The question is then: Does one know ones True Being/Nature (impersonal enlightenment), and can one re-establish that nondual infinite awakened state immediately by just reaching out?

Peak to Plateau to permanent. The deciding shift is realizing what that True Being really is. That gives to possibility to re-establish that by just "reaching out".

[Water by the River]

4 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

I still stick to my original post when i said God does not suffer. God just Is. How can God suffer. Yes, there appears to be suffering, but it's just an appearance. Appearing from Consciousness. If you look in a mirror and see a reflection of yourself, is that reflection you, can the reflection walk away without you walking away. No. If there is visible suffering showing on your person and you look in the mirror and you see yourself reflection suffering, did the mirror do that. Is the mirror suffering. No. Well, God is that mirror. If two people are fighting in a room is the space in the room feeling the effects of the fight. No. God is like that space in the room. God cannot be touched. It is omnipotent and omnipresent. It is like the space from which everything appears even suffering. It can become all these things but in it's original form it is no-thing and no-thing can suffer because it is that which the suffering is arising from. 

Now, someone please tell me if I'm wrong here because maybe I'm all confused and need some clarity. 

Francis Lucille once said: Ignorance is only a bad idea from the perspective of ignorance.

Which is a pretty funny way to put it, which becomes pretty clear once one has had a first glimpse of what the other perspective without ignorance is... 

And he said ingnorance is the spice of the world. Who could contradict that?

[Breakingthewall]

47 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

The deciding shift is realizing what that True Being really is.

At least I realize what reality is in some specific moments, moments of openness, but in the normal state I am aware of the suffering that human life includes. In fact, suffering is an essential part of being human, and its level can be very high. There is a very common human suffering in human reality that none of us here have experienced, which is real violence. That them enslave your daughters and torture you and then crucify you, those human things that none of us want. 

As you have said, they are emergences that occur in dual reality, but it is difficult to understand the level and degree of what this moment can be, and the purpose of those emergences. Well, the purpose seems to be evolution, reincarnation, etc, but who knows if it's the case. I would say that yes, every experience of real suffering makes the human deeper. Seems that everything tends to that, deeper conciousness , but who knows 

Edited January 3 by Breakingthewall

[Princess Arabia]

17 minutes ago, Squeekytoy said:

Spot on imo.

Of course it's no consolation to the false self that only the false self suffers from its own ignorance. But then it's not meant to be. Nor is it meant to be an excuse for denial, that much I do agree with.

Got it.

[Princess Arabia]

19 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

Francis Lucille once said: Ignorance is only a bad idea from the perspective of ignorance.

Which is a pretty funny way to put it, which becomes pretty clear once one has had a first glimpse of what the other perspective without ignorance is... 

And he said ingnorance is the spice of the world. Who could contradict that?

Not sure what you're saying in respect to my last sentence.

Edited January 3 by Princess Arabia

[Water by the River]

7 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

Not sure what you're saying in respect to my last sentence.

"Ignorance is only a bad idea from the perspective of ignorance." This statement is in line with what you wrote. 

Ignorance is a technical definition from Advaita Vedanta refering to the confusion/illusion of the separate-self. The building blocks of the separate-self/ego. Appearances that make one feel separate, dividing the true nondual state of things in duality, a me somewhere in here "in" something "other".

Separation-Appearances that by definition cause suffering. Which are a bad idea from the perspective of the separate self. Not from the perspective of Reality itself.

From the perspective of Reality itself, it is the spice of the world. The fuel that keeps this great game of Lila going.

Edited January 3 by Water by the River