Something About Empathy Is Confusing

[Princess Arabia]

Earlier I made a post about an emotional YT comment that bothered me. OK I'm over that. I've discovered that I'm an Empath (if there's such a thing as I don't know anymore about these terms) a while back and I've noticed a few instances where my personality fits this definition. As you know, like I've said numerous times here that I can feel other's pain.

Earlier in the other thread, I was told that maybe I haven't processed my own pain and that's why this is the case. Ok, I accepted that explanation. as I'm always open to possibilities and won't argue when I'm given advice about something that concerns me and will contemplate it before denying that's the case.

I was also told that maybe I need to do shadow work to help with this and as a way to process inner pain and to help with this also.

My concern is this. We say we are One. Others are us and there is no separation. If that's the case, why do I have to process and do shadow work to not feel other's pain. If we are all connected, then isn't it normal for this to occur especially if I'm getting more connected to my inner being, because I am. The more I delve into this work the more I feel connected to Source. If we are all from the one Source, why is it unnatural for me to feel this way  and have to feel as if something is wrong with me because I have the ability to feel other's pain. 

It's not like my life is being disrupted by this Empathetic nature of mine to the point where I can't function, it comes and goes. I cannot stand to see people suffer. Who does. I have gotten more sensitive than before but it's not that overwhelming where I feel I need to do something about it. 

Note: This is not about doing or not doing shadow work, but more about why if I can feel other's pain and am Empathetic towards others suffering, does that imply I need to process my own inner pain (that may be subconscious because I'm not conscious about any pain other than the normal things that may be frustrating at times and does not linger within me). 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Princess Arabia

[Ishanga]

26 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

Earlier I made a post about an emotional YT comment that bothered me. OK I'm over that. I've discovered that I'm an Empath (if there's such a thing as I don't know anymore about these terms) a while back and I've noticed a few instances where my personality fits this definition. As you know, like I've said numerous times here that I can feel other's pain.

Earlier in the other thread, I was told that maybe I haven't processed my own pain and that's why this is the case. Ok, I accepted that explanation. as I'm always open to possibilities and won't argue when I'm given advice about something that concerns me and will contemplate it before denying that's the case.

I was also told that maybe I need to do shadow work to help with this and as a way to process inner pain and to help with this also.

My concern is this. We say we are One. Others are us and there is no separation. If that's the case, why do I have to process and do shadow work to not feel other's pain. If we are all connected, then isn't it normal for this to occur especially if I'm getting more connected to my inner being, because I am. The more I delve into this work the more I feel connected to Source. If we are all from the one Source, why is it unnatural for me to feel this way  and have to feel as if something is wrong with me because I have the ability to feel other's pain. 

It's not like my life is being disrupted by this Empathetic nature of mine to the point where I can't function, it comes and goes. I cannot stand to see people suffer. Who does. I have gotten more sensitive than before but it's not that overwhelming where I feel I need to do something about it. 

Note: This is not about doing or not doing shadow work, but more about why if I can feel other's pain and am Empathetic towards others suffering, does that imply I need to process my own inner pain (that may be subconscious because I'm not conscious about any pain other than the normal things that may be frustrating at times and does not linger within me). 

This thing about all of us being One, and there is no separation, is complete BS on lots of levels. Ultimately Yes it is true, but that is on the level of non physicality, on this level, Earthly Bodily Material level, we are not one, and we are separate individuals, but we can have an Experience of Oneness within Ourselves, that gives us a connection to everything, as well on a more subtle physical level we are all connected via the trees supplying O2 for us to breath/survive, the Sun is supplying heat and other life giving things to all of Us, there are many levels of connection in that manner, we are not totally independent of one another  but we have separate bodies and minds, neither of which is what we are in reality, body/mind is accumulated by us over time, what is us is subtler than that, but we still have to deal with the duality and individuality that is present when Embodied..On Subtler level of Psyche yes you can feel others intentions, feelings and the grand feeling of the earth and if You sensitive enough the entire Universe as we are not separate from any of that, it just depends on what You identify with, body/mind, or the Life you are within Yourself...Never suffer anothers pain or suffering, that just adds to the suffering of the world, just notice it, and maintain your own peace/bliss within yourself and see what You can do to help others not suffer as best You can, that is all one can do...

Edited December 30, 2023 by Ishanga

[enzyme]

It might feel bothersome/unnatural only because this is ultimately a high level teaching.  As much as you can raise your levels of consciousness, you're still in a human form, so it's not feasible to remain at high levels for so long.  That's how a lot of people get put off from spirituality altogether because it freaks them out or makes them uncomfortable.

While there's no separation between you and other from the absolute perspective, it might be best to lower your thinking to a more practical level and approach the issue more straight forward.

So from what I'm understanding - if you consider yourself an empath - treat the emotions you're experiencing as more of a reaction to what other people are doing or saying rather than second guessing yourself about something within you.

[Princess Arabia]

8 minutes ago, enzyme said:

It might feel bothersome/unnatural only because this is ultimately a high level teaching.  As much as you can raise your levels of consciousness, you're still in a human form, so it's not feasible to remain at high levels for so long.  That's how a lot of people get put off from spirituality altogether because it freaks them out or makes them uncomfortable.

While there's no separation between you and other from the absolute perspective, it might be best to lower your thinking to a more practical level and approach the issue more straight forward.

So from what I'm understanding - if you consider yourself an empath - treat the emotions you're experiencing as more of a reaction to what other people are doing or saying rather than second guessing yourself about something within you.

Ok. Thank you.

[Davino]

18 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

If that's the case, why do I have to process and do shadow work to not feel other's pain. If we are all connected, then isn't it normal for this to occur especially if I'm getting more connected to my inner being, because I am. The more I delve into this work the more I feel connected to Source.

Shadow Work is not done to repress feeling but to fully feel and process the most repressed and obscure feelings in one's psyche.

THere's nothing wrong with being sensitive and empathetic, it's a blessing! but it has to be done in the proper context. It has  to come from the space of powerfullness and not from powerlessness. Imagine feelings like waves, when your mind and consciousness is like a bathtub, when little waves come all the water starts falling outside and you can even drown yourself. Imagine this waves in a swimming pool, now in a lake, now in the beach, now in the middle of the ocean. In the same way, your empathy will be able to be expressed in the oceanic deepths of your being, you will not be shaken or want to avoid them as you said earlier, because you will be grounded in a sky like mind.

Quote

If we are all from the one Source, why is it unnatural for me to feel this way  and have to feel as if something is wrong with me because I have the ability to feel other's pain. 

It is not in being sensitive and feeling, it is in the triggering that comes from that ability. Being able to be empathetic and then focusing that tool on others pain and then that triggering inner pain and turmoil. It is when the triggering comes where there might be shadow work to do. In the future you will be able to live the pain and joy from others, without inner wounds spilling out. As it come it leaves the system, like images in a screen. Being empathetic is a huge gift you haven't mastered it yet, why? Because it may be triggering your shadow.

I hope I made myself clear, ask if there's something hanging out.

 

[Princess Arabia]

9 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

This thing about all of us being One, and there is no separation, is complete BS on lots of levels. Ultimately Yes it is true, but that is on the level of non physicality, on this level, Earthly Bodily Material level, we are not one, and we are separate individuals, but we can have an Experience of Oneness within Ourselves, that gives us a connection to everything, as well on a more subtle physical level we are all connected via the trees supplying O2 for us to breath/survive, the Sun is supplying heat and other life giving things to all of Us, there are many levels of connection in that manner, we are not totally independent of one another  but we have separate bodies and minds, neither of which is what we are in reality, body/mind is accumulated by us over time, what is us is subtler than that, but we still have to deal with the duality and individuality that is present when Embodied..On Subtler level of Psyche yes you can feel others intentions, feelings and the grand feeling of the earth and if You sensitive enough the entire Universe as we are not separate from any of that, it just depends on what You identify with, body/mind, or the Life you are within Yourself...Never suffer anothers pain or suffering, that just adds to the suffering of the world, just notice it, and maintain your own peace/bliss within yourself and see what You can do to help others not suffer as best You can, that is all one can do...

I will contemplate this, thank you.

[Princess Arabia]

2 minutes ago, Davino said:

Shadow Work is not done to repress feeling but to fully feel and process the most repressed and obscure feelings in one's psyche.

THere's nothing wrong with being sensitive and empathetic, it's a blessing! but it has to be done in the proper context. It has  to come from the space of powerfullness and not from powerlessness. Imagine feelings like waves, when your mind and consciousness is like a bathtub, when little waves come all the water starts falling outside and you can even drown yourself. Imagine this waves in a swimming pool, now in a lake, now in the beach, now in the middle of the ocean. In the same way, your empathy will be able to be expressed in the oceanic deepths of your being, you will not be shaken or want to avoid them as you said earlier, because you will be grounded in a sky like mind.

It is not in being sensitive and feeling, it is in the triggering that comes from that ability. Being able to be empathetic and then focusing that tool on others pain and then that triggering inner pain and turmoil. It is when the triggering comes where there might be shadow work to do. In the future you will be able to live the pain and joy from others, without inner wounds spilling out. As it come it leaves the system, like images in a screen. Being empathetic is a huge gift you haven't mastered it yet, why? Because it may be triggering your shadow.

I hope I made myself clear, ask if there's something hanging out.

 

Yes, I understand you now. I read somewhere a while back that Empaths have to be protective of their energy because it can get overwhelming. It wasn't so bad before this work but , I feel it more intense now to the point where I start crying. As I said though, it's only in the moment and then in a few minutes it goes away and it doesn't happen with every thing i feel it every time I feel Empathy. 

Ever since your comment, I've been pondering this and felt the need to have to address it and also wanted to hear other's opinions on this why I didn't pm you personally and started a separate thread. I think I understand more what is happening from reading this and will read it again to grasp it fully.  I do trust that you are capable of guiding me in this manner, so I will take your guidance in grace and reflect on it thank you. 

Today i am also feeling extra sensitive so maybe that has something to do with it. The moon is out..lol. Thank you.

 

[Davino]

@Princess Arabia You are femenine so take into account that you are waking up from a woman's biological and psychological system. This may include more emotional labour than a man waking up, which will have other areas of work. Take this into account when people answer you, as most people in awakening are masculine and as a matter of fact, we don't have direct experience of being consciousness manifessting through a woman's body and that certainly makes a distance in advice giving and life experiences. Specially in topics where femenine is naturally more involved like emotions.

[Princess Arabia]

4 minutes ago, Davino said:

@Princess Arabia You are femenine so take into account that you are waking up from a woman's biological and psychological system. This may include more emotional labour than a man waking up, which will have other areas of work. Take this into account when people answer you, as most people in awakening are masculine and as a matter of fact, we don't have direct experience of being consciousness manifessting through a woman's body and that certainly makes a distance in advice giving and life experiences. Specially in topics where femenine is naturally more involved like emotions.

Ok, I will take that into consideration. Thank you .

[Princess Arabia]

2 hours ago, Squeekytoy said:

There is a difference between literally feeling someone else's pain, and feeling your own stored pain as it gets triggered by watching someone else.

The former is our connectedness, the latter is ones own baggage and is resolved with shadow work.

Although I suspect that this baggage can often be the result of actually feeling other people's energy as a child before we are developed enough to process it. So then this becomes a coping thing and will need to get processed later in life, with shadow work. It wouldn't surprise me if this has been exactly the source of all my problems in life, and on the path.

Note also that the purification of shadow work can become its own goal, or it can be a means to clear obstructions to awakening. The former means trying to become a perfect person, the latter means waking up from the person. Either is fine but it helps to understand this distinction and make informed decisions about what to do.

Personally I don't care about becoming a perfect person as that's a never-ending project with rapidly diminishing returns. But for some people this is their thing. It helps to recognize this and avoid going down one rabbit hole when you meant to go down the other.

Thanks, Squeaky, I'll take this under consideration.

[Princess Arabia]

1 hour ago, Squeekytoy said:

@Princess Arabia btw i didn't realize the YT comment bothered you, can you say in what way exactly? Hope my reply in the other thread wasn't insensitive. 

 

I tried 5 different x's to describe how exactly and I couldn't find the words, Squeeky. I don't know how to write it on paper because it's more of a feeling not a memory and since I'm not feeling the pain right now I can't do it. But it was horrible. 

No, you're good. A bit abrupt but I didn't take it as insensitive. 

 

 

[Keryo Koffa]

@Princess Arabia I could try to make it short but I think the long answer will add tons to your perspective to integrate. So here we go!

Return of the “Semi-Awkward Mystic Autistic”: Part II: Confusion as a Lifestyle!

The reality you see right here right now. It’s consistent and you see it in real time. But it’s just local signals in some brain. See it as it is, only a brain receiving signal. A dark singularity outside of reality. Filtering inputs and projecting images. Colors are arbitrary, shapes are arbitrary. It’s just visualization, it’s all in your head. Other’s are projection, you are projection. Shapes are a product of configuration. A primordial circuit drives desire. Interprets input into broad shapes. Associates shapes through context to stimuli. Infers relations through emotions to correlate them. Objects are a projection of desire onto qualia. Qualia is another word for the forms in consciousness. Brain circuits are driven by input and entropy. Entropy is what causes change, basically diffusion. Diffusion is stuff equalizing. Like hot water and cold water equalize to lukewarm. We use the pace of entropy to project time. Specificity of signals and error correcting creates consistency. The brain balances itself for homeostasis. Fear drives behavior, locks the brain into fear projection. Fear evolved due to our shape’s continuous survival ability. Certain projections correlate to survival and are integrated. This creates identity to be maintained. Different parts are declared self. Projected to be beneficial for survival. We have cheat codes. Our behavior is driven by survival. But the survival of what?. We can determine that. We “need” to survive, but what are we? We can sacrifice ourselves for others, projection of meaning. But everything is projection, an aspect of ourselves.

Your body, projection. People on the forum, projection. The differences and barriers, projection. Emotions? Projection. Love? Projection

Projection of what? One’s will to survive onto others. Evidence? Yes, behavior, extension of identity. Are these others conscious? Where do we get these signals from? “The void”, which may very well be equal to our perception. Though infinitely interpretable by configuration. Configuration determines emotions, projection, reality. Could we be not from that reality but a consciousness beyond?. Maybe, probably, definitely?

Your eyes are made of receptors (energy). They receive light (energy). They send signals through the neural net (energy). Neurons fire and reconfigure (energy). The configuration changes form (energy). It’s all just a different form of energy. You are infinitely connected to all energy. You are just a form within it. A specific configuration. A certain interpretation. Others like you might exist out there. Having the same conscious experience. Their emotions are your projection. But we seem to be made of the same. They might have their own mind regardless. It’s just not part of your experience. Your experience includes the entire world. “You” are just as real as “anyone” else. Their suffering is equally projected as your suffering. There is no other. Everything is a shape within consciousness

You might want to stop suffering. Only way to help others is to know how to stop suffering yourself. In your new perspective that accounts for all before it. You can guide others to the same realizations. But you need to know exactly what they are. And what separates them from yourself and your state of mind. But before you even get there. You might become god, dissolve reality, and love all suffering. Because it’s all just a configuration. 

Happy is a duality against sad. It can only exist in contrast. Meaning against nihilism. Satiation against hunger. Grateful / Ungrateful. Like / Dislike. Preference / Perfection. Division is distance. Point A is not in the same place as Point B. It’s a path, a journey. If we dissolved all Desire. We’d not exist. No need to exist. Nothing to do. No preference. No shape to attach to. Nothingness. This world is the way it is to maintain its illusion. If there was no suffering, there’d be less appreciation. Our identities would not have formed. We would not be talking right now

Evolution creates forms. Forms fight for survival. Ego is suffering. Kill or be killed. We can live more happily. We already did. Consciousness was happy in some people’s once at a time. Already experienced that. You could be rich. You already are. You are every millionaire. You don’t have direct sensual experience. But your imagination fills it perfectly. You only seek what you lack. What you want is a projection. Its full nature is in your heart. You don’t need proxies in “physical reality” to project it onto. The full conditions for its fulfillment are within you. To experience it in reality is to give it depth. It’s also to perpetuate experience. To take that desire away for fulfillment to slowly dissolve it. And on the journey of dissolving it via proxies you experience happiness and fulfillment. But if it doesn’t work and you can’t have reality mirror your desires, you get sad. If you can’t have what you want, you react negatively. Because we’re attaching ourselves to arising desires. Projection of our current identity and survival agenda

We are stardust, materializing as conscious human experience. We should be grateful we exist at all. That consciousness is possible at all. We forget these deeper existential wonders for illusory survival projections

To love someone or something is to desire it to maintain its form and identity. We create that identity and form within us, a projection via proxy. We love that illusion but it cannot last. If it did last, we’d get bored and let go of it naturally. Because it's ephemeral, it has more meaning. We do everything not to lose it. We fear losing it. We suffer out of that conditional love. Because we want them to maintain their separate form. But ephemeral existence allows the creation of our forms in the first place. Yet even then, we have the freedom beyond the physical. We can dream, imagine, create stories out of our hearts through art. Until we fulfill the desire for that form to exist for sufficiently long and allow ourselves to move on

The soldiers acted out of love, love for their country, identity, families. Other soldiers acted out “lesser more selfish love”, adrenaline, sadism, primal instincts. Ideologies are the same conditional love, to preserve some forms, some identities over others. Suffering is attachment to form, to projection, to parts of one’s identity, experience, survival. We borrowed our atoms from the earth, and we seek to keep them and for others to keep them too. We deny new life to evolve, we destroy the world for comfort, out of unconsciousness. We don't protest every day, we don’t plant trees every day, we don’t invite homeless people to our homes. We don’t even take care of ourselves, addictions, neglecting our body, emotions, cravings, denying ourselves. It’s all love, confused love, arbitrary love, projected love, sense making love, unconscious love. Love for projected aspects of our self and comfort too.

We are a configuration, specific perception, specific identity, specific qualia, specific emotions, present experience. We are that in which all this happens, consciousness, solipsism, call it god if you want, pure being. Dissatisfaction is a property of confusion is a property of inner conflict is a property of ignorance is a property of preference is a property of form is a property of being is a property of | .

What do we do about it? Learn to understand if one seeks to transcend suffering. Understanding resolves the regret that arises when one is kept in the dark or fear. Reconcile every perspective, they’re all mistakes on the path to enlightenment. Mistakes aren’t mistakes, just confusion, locked paradigms and unresolved conflict. We’re all in a maze, looking to find enlightenment and we don’t even know what to look for. Our proxies point us towards something that resembles “Nothing”. Of course it's confusing and we got so much unique baggage and projection. But understanding gives patience, it also shows one diminishing returns, both really and the autonomy of personal experience that can only be pointed to, simulated, to run the brain circuits and intuit what’s in between.

[Leo Gura]

Empathy has a genetic and neurological component. Sme people just have more empathy than others for those reasons.

[Leo Gura]

Empathy has a genetic and neurological component. Some people just have more empathy than others for those reasons.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Schizophonia]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Empathy has a genetic and neurological component. Some people just have more empathy than others for those reasons.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/when-grasshoppers-go-bibl/
When Grasshoppers deal with an energetically stressful situation (in this case after drought) their brain serotonin rises and they transform into genocidal gangsters.

[Princess Arabia]

@Keryo KoffaWow, that was a mind fuck. I understood it all. So much so, I started crying. Lol. I cry over everything that touches my heart now, it's annoying lol. I just came in from the store and while I was out I kept looking through my eyes and everything seemed as if it was coming from inside my eyes. Like there was nothing "out there", but coming from within me. Like I was projecting it all. I saw how my body blended in with what I was looking at. I felt no separation at a particular moment, it was surreal. Of course, it went back to normal after a few but I kept saying to myself, wow I can see it, I can see it. Lol. What? I don't know, but it felt weird. 

Thank you for that in depth explanation and i understood every word of it as if they were my own words talking back to me. You have a way about you that is complex and simple at the same time. It was like I was talking to my self, trying to explain to myself what was happening here in Reality and I didn't even stop at any moment to reread anything (maybe once or twice) but it was a constant flow of words that my brain was interpreting as if it was happening inside of it. Thank you. I will bookmark for later reference.

[Princess Arabia]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Empathy has a genetic and neurological component. Some people just have more empathy than others for those reasons.

I see.

[Keryo Koffa]

@Princess Arabia Glad to hear! I'm really writing as I reason through my intuitions and discover all the connections myself in the process. You ask good questions and I try to fit those and everything I know into a singular interconnected model. My intuition tells me that unpleasantness is the lack of understanding. Because everything has a cause, happens for a reason, has a motive important enough to make one act. And those reasons might seem petty or stupid to us, but when one understands all the different states of mind, circumstances and has deep enough universal empathy, then one can understand the other side, and also another side that causes that side pain, all simultaneously, and then one seeks compromises, ways to make things work despite different desires and priorities. Because that's what the world is, different people with different opinions, all based on something. And I feel like we can abstract and project different aspects onto others well enough, to understand every behavior, even if we don't like it. I've never been in the army and at war, but I know for dear life, that it is absolutely horrific. Because I see its effects onto others, and I can see how they are just like me.

And I am you as you are me. To what degree? Hard to say. Are we both conscious inside a mega-consciousness, is there someone pulling the strings? I don't know. But until I realize more I'll stick with a "Yin Yang" model. I am words that reach you. You are words that reach me. I am a vast consciousness under a shell. And so are you. It really doesn't matter if the other side is conscious or not, that's fascinating but a technicality. We are equally real or unreal. Made of the same reality. Observed and intuited by a distinct consciousness. We're both have human bodies, parents, speak the same language, there is tons of similarity. We don't have all the same experiences and that's what separates us. But if our brains configured themselves differently, we'd share the same experience. And even beyond that, we share all the same emotions, all the same views, perceptions, desires, at the root of it all we are made of the same desires. We just project them onto different things as we learned that through our experience, different names, different places, different songs, we projected and identified the same core emotions and insights with different forms within reality. And we access them differently and to different extents depending on the mood we're in and whether we're stressed or at peace.

Words on a screen, or colors interpreted from light, real, imaginary, its all equally communication. Different forms, different complexities, different amounts and details. Some easier to interpret, some devoid of context. I see a part of me in you and you see a part of you in me (Yin and Yang). We see each other through our own lenses, but if we go deep enough into conversation and keep clarifying, we see what is and isn't true and what is inferred. So really, you are in a way writing this to yourself. Every word you read is an interpretation of letters which are just a contrast of light and dark.

Read this as if you wrote it: Hi me, how am I doing today? Huh, why would I ask myself that, I'm me, I already know! Ah anyway, this person on the screen is really writing a lot. But if all I read is what I already know, then why can't I just learn it from myself? Hmm, okay that's a weird feeling. This place feels like a bubble, huh, I felt some deja-vu, as if I was here before. Okay! First question, what don't I understand? Let's see, well for one thing...

[seriousman24]

Empathy is also the "ability" to feel other's passions, desires, lusts and likes and secret and obscene and grotesque simple and sophisticated pleasures, so Putin's love for dominating others, Hitler's desires, someone's prideful arrogance it starts sounding really obscene/silly/funny because that's  where the actual full spectrum of empathy leads.
 

This might be the ACTUAL hardest empathy skill, how a person you like is feeling their own happiness is much harder than to precisely pinpoint their miseries because happiness/love is much more expansive/complex and actually "harder" to understand also because THEIR happiness is going to have multiple sources of background "miseries" that they've already went through which you might have to go through to fully understand, of course luckily happiness is something that "spreads" easily so we can get new forms of happiness that deepen our own much more easily from our fellow human beings, specially ones we like, it's what we do daily and we get it for FREE, you don't need to suffer as much because that person's energy as most of it "mapped" out and because they're another human being.

I'm sure there's an official term, okay that was pretty straight forward after a search, empathic joy, with this it's actually "EASY" to understand villains and victims.
 

[gettoefl]

the old me used to feel deeply saddened sullen sorrowful shattered ... seeing your shit life before my eyes

not no more though, now i do something about it

i forgive me for placing you in my path and giving you that shit life so i can heal all my bits

i forgive you for making your life shit to this day at every turn not taking care of business

i forgive me for thinking your life shit, i did this to help heal my judgmentalism, i have never walked in your shoes

i forgive you for proclaiming your life shit, you acted the victim so you stayed the victim

i forgive me for contributing to your shit life by being a non loving channel, bringing you grief and strife, please do forgive me

i forgive you for all the squabbles all the cross words all the rifts we endured, it was your fault too and brought you to your current shit life

i forgive me every time i didn't and don't see you as the divine incarnated, you are the one and i am the shit one for not wordlessly telling you this

i forgive you for not beholding your majesty and living the most fantastic life every lived, it's okay i forgive you and i love you and we'll do better

Edited January 1 by gettoefl