Summarizing the spiritual versus science paradigm

[Leo Gura]

15 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Science paradigm = first seeing, then believing

Spiritual paradigm = first believing and then seeing

What do you think?

Awful

[Thought Art]

@StarStruck Do you read books or study this stuff, contemplate it and think about it before you post? Have you started building your commonplace book?

[Extreme Z7]

16 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Science paradigm = first seeing, then believing

Spiritual paradigm = first believing and then seeing

 

Science starts with a lot of hypothesizing before any observation.

Spirituality begins by observing Consciousness as purely and accurately as you can and then pondering about what it is and what is posssible.

So in that sense, you kinda have things backwards.

[Extreme Z7]

Here's something more accurate

Science Paradigm = Creating a beautiful walled garden where everything is rainbows and sunshine and everyone gets free ice cream

Spiritual Paradigm = Learn how to contemplate OR SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES!!!

Edited December 29, 2023 by Extreme Z7

[StarStruck]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Awful

how would you summarize those two paradigms?

[StarStruck]

6 hours ago, Thought Art said:

@StarStruck Do you read books or study this stuff, contemplate it and think about it before you post? Have you started building your commonplace book?

Yea, why are you asking?

Personally I think Joe Dispenza comes the closest to it. He calls 3D reality (Newtonian) versus 5D which is quantum reality. It is good enough definition for me. 

Leo doesn’t see 1st order reality as quantum reality but it comes very close to the truth for me. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by StarStruck

[gettoefl]

science says train (namely read and look), spirituality says trust (namely test and see)

Quote

What is, is. It is neither subjective nor objective. Matter and mind are not separate, they are aspects of one energy. Look at the mind as a function of matter and you have science; look at matter as the product of the mind and you have religion. Nisargadatta, I Am That, Ch.80

 

[Davino]

22 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Spiritual paradigm = first believing and then seeing

It depends on what we say words are.

Do you believe you are seeing this shapes and colors called letters or are you actually seeing them?

Spirituality is direct consciousness, DIRECT

But if we are talking about stage green or religious spirituality, that could fit.

Also you need to understand that your whole worldview and sense making is a web of believes. Tonight, when  you go to bed you believe so much that you are going to wake up next morning, otherwise you wouldn't be able to sleep in reflections of the uncertainty of death. You believe there is an earth and billions of other humans you have never seen, you believe you were born and so on.

So believe is the bread and butter of constructing reality, so if believe can be used to destroy believe, whatever who cares? At some point you believed another human telling you that awakening and enlightenment is possible, and you believed it! Yet that believed destroyed many believes and ultimately will ground you in a state of full consciousness of your believe making. 

This is an age old concept that Leo has called going Meta. Whatever tool used in the end needs to be transcended but if we don't have tool to begin with because we know it's a limitation in the ultimate sense, we are stucked. Ramana Maharshi used the metaphor of making a funeral pyre. He suggested that just as a funeral pyre consumes everything thrown into it, the stick used to build it finally is also thrown into the fire. As Frank Yang also says, we use one ground to dissolve another ground. In the same way believe is it's own trap but can be used to liberate as anything else if taken to the last step of Meta.

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Personally I think Joe Dispenza comes the closest to it. He calls 3D reality (Newtonian) versus 5D which is quantum reality. It is good enough definition for me.

Definition of what?

[Ishanga]

On 12/28/2023 at 6:33 PM, Carl-Richard said:

Then all humans are bad, which is fine to believe

 

I understand that enlightenment is a recognition of something that exists beyond all beliefs. But still, enlightened people have beliefs. They just see them for what they are; beliefs. The main danger lies in making beliefs into something they are not; to conflate belief with reality.

Beliefs, assumptions, whatever you want to call them, are necessary for maintaining your existence as a human being. Sometimes you need to form a belief about something or assume something based on little information, because your physical existence is limited and you don't have access to all the information in the universe, so you need to make shortcuts in order to survive. Unless you've left your physical body, beliefs are required for existing.

I never said "all humans are bad" because they believe, it is just belief is not an empowering tool, it replaces truth and clarity and seeking...I repectfully disagree, humans can exist quite easily without belief..

[Carl-Richard]

21 hours ago, Ishanga said:

I never said "all humans are bad" because they believe, it is just belief is not an empowering tool, it replaces truth and clarity and seeking...I repectfully disagree, humans can exist quite easily without belief..

Do you believe your car is in the garage or not?

[Ishanga]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

Do you believe your car is in the garage or not?

I know where my car is, I put it there, no belief about it:) Belief is thinking you know via other information that is not from You, Knowing is information that you can verify via Your own experience and clarity. I know I have 5 fingers on each hand, I do not believe I have 5 fingers on each hand...

[Carl-Richard]

25 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

I know where my car is, I put it there, no belief about it:)

What if it got stolen when you were away?

[Ishanga]

Just now, Carl-Richard said:

What if it got stolen when you were away?

How does it getting stolen affect my knowing, or how would it be any different if I believed? Your question makes no sense. If I believed it was outside and it was stolen, or I know it is outside and it was stolen, same difference...Irrelevant question...What ifs mean nothing and can be endless...

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Ishanga said:

How does it getting stolen affect my knowing, or how would it be any different if I believed? Your question makes no sense. If I believed it was outside and it was stolen, or I know it is outside and it was stolen, same difference...Irrelevant question...What ifs mean nothing and can be endless...

My point is that you'll most likely believe it's in the garage despite it being stolen before you find out that it was indeed stolen. This would evidenced by the state of surprise you would experience if you opened the garage and it wasn't there: "I put it there yesterday and now it's gone!". This is because you've formed a belief based on for example a previous action (putting it in the garage), and maybe your past experience with putting it in the garage and finding it the next day, and maybe the expectation of the security of your garage, etc. 

But this day, you in fact didn't find the car, and you were really surprised. Then with this new knowledge, you would adjust your beliefs: "maybe it was stolen", "maybe my brother borrowed it". Again, a belief is not a naughty thing, and it's not incompatible with experience. It's informed by experience. I'm saying that we always use beliefs in our daily lives, because that is just how life works. You make conclusions based on limited information all the time, and you're always able to be proven wrong (and when you are, you'll most likely be surprised).

Edited December 31, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Ishanga]

@Carl-Richard Even "I do not Know" is better than Belief.

Belief gives You Confidence

Knowing gives You Clarity

I Do Not Know forces You to Seek.

Confidence is the least empowering, its false knowing, You think You know but  You don't so you can get into more danger this way

Clarity is the wisest path to go in life, Life is lived at Ease (not meaning Easy), with Ease You can go full stride (no fear, no stress in this stage), not two step forward one step back when life is fear or belief based

Seeking give You energy and the ability to Know, so your on the path of knowing when in Seeking mode, this is the beginners route.

[Tomek6]

I share an interesting perspective on that subject that I recently read. The article says that division into spirituality and reality comes only from limitation of our biological senses. Everything is physics and everything is spirituality