Two opposing versions of enlightenment

[Someone here]

I'm listening to contradictory views on what awakening or enlightenment is . One is that of Leo and Peter Ralston..and the other is of Jim Newman and Tony Parsons. 

Leo suggests that enlightenment gives you understanding..and that enlightenment has levels and degrees..and that your default state is not enlightened and that you should seek it in the future.  Those other teachers say that "what is " is already exactly what reality is and there is nothing to awaken to or to understand (in fact reality cannot be understood as a whole but maybe separate parts ).and I don't know which view is correct. The empty mind vs.  The understanding mind .

A cat or a dog or an ape is fully content and fulfilled by an unreflected life. But animals aren't enlightened.. Obviously.

Just like small human kids (2-5 years old). They are so free: FULLY expressing WHATEVER arises.. laughter  cry ..rage.. WHATEVER.. it just gets expressed. They are SO fucking immersed in The Now. EVERYTHING is exciting for them. 

But are 2-5 year old kids enlightened? HELL FUCKING NO

So someone like Ramana Maharshi teaches that silence is the highest teaching.  Having clear mind empty of thoughts is what makes you enlightened. 

Honestly I resonate more with this view ..the only thing you can do to achieve enlightenment is nothing .

What do you guys think 🤔? 

[Devin]

Enlightenment is when a person knows what Tony is saying. Saying what Tony is, is schizophrenic or at least contradictory given that any word's sole purpose is to communicate, as in between two things, so it wouldn't make sense to say 'enlightenment is' because any word can only divide.

If 'enlightenment is' then why is Tony needing to talk and teach about it, that's either schizophrenic or predatory fraud. If Tony is right then why are you asking about it?

People do exist, and people can be enlightened, that doesn't mean that any narrative is anything other than a narrative though, exist is a narrative a long with reality but there's still both reality and existence.

 Tony is lost on the concept of non duality, he only speaks about it, it wouldn't make sense for someone to be so fixated on teaching it if they truly believed no one else existed would it? Who is he trying to teach then? And why?

Edited December 28, 2023 by Devin

[Someone here]

2 minutes ago, Devin said:

Enlightenment is when a person knows what Tony is saying. Saying what Tony is, is schizophrenic or at least contradictory given that any word's sole purpose is to communicate, as in between two things, so it wouldn't make sense to say 'enlightenment is' because any word can only divide.

If 'enlightenment is' then why is Tony needing to talk and teach about it, that's either schizophrenic or predatory fraud. If Tony is right then why are you asking about it?

People do exist, and people can be enlightened, that doesn't mean that any narrative is anything other than a narrative though, exist is a narrative a long with reality but there's still both reality and existence.

 Tony is lost on the concept of non duality, he only speaks about it, it wouldn't make sense for someone to be so fixated on teaching it if they truly believed no one else existed would it? Who is he trying to teach then? And why?

I don't quite understand what you are saying .

Are you familiar with Tony's teaching? He basically says there is no self to awaken and awakening is simply as you are already 

Nothing needs to be attained or achieved. 

Cab you reframe your post in a simplest way ?

[Devin]

25 minutes ago, Someone here said:

I don't quite understand what you are saying .

Are you familiar with Tony's teaching? He basically says there is no self to awaken and awakening is simply as you are already 

Nothing needs to be attained or achieved. 

Cab you reframe your post in a simplest way ?

Why would Tony need to say that? Why would he care to? Is he not right there trying to teach someone? Are you not listening to him and trying to understand him?

 

Quote

 He basically says there is no self to awaken and awakening is simply as you are already 

The "as you are already" is the fraud or delusional part. "You" refers to a being, he's speaking to someone, "you", so he's saying there's no need for learning You 'already are', and yet he's trying to get you to understand. It's a contradiction.

In the context of what Tony is trying to talk about, there is no you, there is no Being, God, or Individual in what Tony is trying to talk about. How can the word You be used and it not mean something less than absolutely everything, it implies something specific, not Everything as one, and so does trying to teach it at all. If Tony is enlightened, then he knows no one is separate from him right? So why is he then trying to teach them that no one is separate?

"todays lesson that I want to teach You is that We are all One, there is no You or Me, that's illusion, do you understand? Yes I understand what You're saying"

That's some schizophrenic manipulation that he's puting out there.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Devin

[Someone here]

6 minutes ago, Devin said:

Why would Tony need to say that? Why would he care to? Is he not right there trying to teach someone? Are you not listening to him and trying to understand him?

Well he would say there is no one doing it .it just happens. Because free will is an illusion since the ego or the doer is illusory. 

7 minutes ago, Devin said:

The "as you are already" is the fraud or delusional part. "You" refers to a being, he's speaking to someone, "you", so he's saying there's no need for learning You 'already are', and yet he's trying to get you to understand. It's a contradiction.

Again..if you listen to his talks ..this very question gets repeated to him and he says there is nobody doing anything. His message comes out of the spontaneous un-premeditated nature of things . So it's a message from no one to no one for no why or how .

9 minutes ago, Devin said:

In the context of what Tony is trying to talk about, there is no you, there is no Being, God, or Individual in what Tony is trying to talk about. How can the word You be used and it not mean something less than absolutely everything, it implies something specific, not Everything as one, and so does trying to teach it at all. If Tony is enlightened, then he knows no one is separate from him right? So why is he then trying to teach them that no one is separate?

Same answer as above .

[Devin]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

Well he would say there is no one doing it .it just happens. Because free will is an illusion since the ego or the doer is illusory. 

Again..if you listen to his talks ..this very question gets repeated to him and he says there is nobody doing anything. His message comes out of the spontaneous un-premeditated nature of things . So it's a message from no one to no one for no why or how .

Same answer as above .

If Tony doesn't exist then his definition of enlightenment doesn't exist right? Which makes it impossible to be true. His definition says you don't exist so how would ever know his definition anyways? How would you ever ponder it? Consciousness is not a mind nor has one, at the same level that Tony is not a person mind is not a thing either and I don't mean brain, thought is not a thing, thoughts don't exist at that level either, the thought enlightenment doesn't exist at that level either.

He's a charlatan buddy, his whole schtick falls apart with the level of logic of a ten year old. He's a master manipulator, a sociopath.

Why would " enlightenment already is" need to be said if not to communicate it? To communicate means from one thing to another, so i guess you personally might say your imagination to You, but at the level that Tony is trying to talk about You nor your imagination exist.

Tony's schtick is that people don't exist, he misses the rest about how at the level of 'people don't exist', nothing exists, not thoughts, not a mind, not imagination.

[Yimpa]

Instead of trying to figure out who is right, discover that Love is being expressed in all facets.

[tuku747]

Seriously why are people so obsessed with the concept of enlightenment or who is and isn't enlightened? Obviously a lot of insightful thoughts come in the process of moving into the realization of What IS. No, you will never come to a final answer because the Word is unspoken.

[Yimpa]

No one does it better than God.

[BlueOak]

For me, that would be a stage yellow problem. Holding both perspectives at once. I fully understand why others would prefer to integrate them together.

[Ishanga]

@Someone here Both are right on some level and degree... In my research over the years and personal experience, there are two basic Spiritual Paths, 1) Top Down method which is Your already there, there is no need to do anything for Enlightenment, just realize you are there and an infinite being of sorts, no methods are given here, so think modern day Non Dualism, Neo vedanta or Jnana Yoga. 2) Start where You are approach, where you don't think about Reality or Enlightenment or things of this nature, You just deal with what is happening within You right now, if Your in suffering, you become Peaceful and step by step go up the latter to where Enlightenment is possible for You, think Yoga, Buddhism methods and mediations, Sadhanas and Breathing practices, Chakra releases, etc..... I prefer approach #2, but when You become realized, you get into approach #1....