Perfectionism Is Wrong And Cruel

[jimwell]

I have been struggling with perfectionism for many years. Despite the great, mind-boggling accomplishments I've gained from self-development or internal work, one of the very few things I've never accomplished is overcoming perfectionism. For example, I wash my hands every time I touch an object which belongs to others. If I'm in a situation where I'm forced to keep that object, such as receiving a physical gift from somebody, I ensure I clean the object first before keeping it. When I arrive home from work or leisure, I ensure to take a shower before going to bed and clean all the things I brought, such as my bag, smartphone, and wallet. I do this 100% of the time, regardless of how sleepy or tired I am. If I don't do it, I feel dirty and anxious. I love cleanliness too much; it has resulted in OCD.

I also apply the same principle to other domains in life. I push myself too hard to ensure I accomplish or demonstrate 100% understanding, bravery, morality, masculinity, etc. If it's 98%, I feel guilty, anxious, or depressed. It must be 100% for me to feel fulfilled and peaceful.

This love for perfectionism has been giving me extreme, needless suffering. I've been enduring the unendurable for too many years; I'm exhausted as fuck.

A few hours ago, I contemplated all this very deeply and seriously. I generated an insight which is very obvious to me now, but couldn't see in the past. I asked ChatGPT to explain the insight on perfectionism I generated because I've always been amazed by ChatGPT's intelligence.

    

I shared this insight to remind myself of the change I need to make. I could have kept this to myself and still initiated the needed change. So, the other reason for sharing this insight is to help others struggling with perfectionism. I'm probably not solitary in this struggle.

[Danioover9000]

@jimwell

48 minutes ago, jimwell said:

I have been struggling with perfectionism for many years. Despite the great, mind-boggling accomplishments I've gained from self-development or internal work, one of the very few things I've never accomplished is overcoming perfectionism. For example, I wash my hands every time I touch an object which belongs to others. If I'm in a situation where I'm forced to keep that object, such as receiving a physical gift from somebody, I ensure I clean the object first before keeping it. When I arrive home from work or leisure, I ensure to take a shower before going to bed and clean all the things I brought, such as my bag, smartphone, and wallet. I do this 100% of the time, regardless of how sleepy or tired I am. If I don't do it, I feel dirty and anxious. I love cleanliness too much; it has resulted in OCD.

I also apply the same principle to other domains in life. I push myself too hard to ensure I accomplish or demonstrate 100% understanding, bravery, morality, masculinity, etc. If it's 98%, I feel guilty, anxious, or depressed. It must be 100% for me to feel fulfilled and peaceful.

This love for perfectionism has been giving me extreme, needless suffering. I've been enduring the unendurable for too many years; I'm exhausted as fuck.

A few hours ago, I contemplated all this very deeply and seriously. I generated an insight which is very obvious to me now, but couldn't see in the past. I asked ChatGPT to explain the insight on perfectionism I generated because I've always been amazed by ChatGPT's intelligence.

    

I shared this insight to remind myself of the change I need to make. I could have kept this to myself and still initiated the needed change. So, the other reason for sharing this insight is to help others struggling with perfectionism. I'm probably not solitary in this struggle.

   But isn't that more OCD and not perfectionism? Also, because of perfectionism is why past geniuses and legends who worked hard and pioneered developing fields for humanity the reason why mastery is a thing?

[Danioover9000]

 

Just now, Danioover9000 said:

@jimwell

   But isn't that more OCD and not perfectionism? Also, because of perfectionism is why past geniuses and legends who worked hard and pioneered developing fields for humanity the reason why mastery is a thing?

   To be more clear with the question, why is perfectionism wrong and cruel, but not the OCD itself? Is perfectionism and 'perfection' itself evil? 

[Nilsi]

13 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@jimwell

   But isn't that more OCD and not perfectionism? Also, because of perfectionism is why past geniuses and legends who worked hard and pioneered developing fields for humanity the reason why mastery is a thing?

I second that.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Nilsi

[Danioover9000]

@Nilsi

55 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

I second that.

   Okay, maybe I'm wrong and distorting my own arguments for this. Also I'd like to comment on that Chat GBT but I lack sufficient context for that so I'll aside that.

   IMO, to me it just seems like the user @jimwell is either conflating the weaknesses of OCD with perfectionism, and maybe making both falsely equal, because Imma be honest, in my top ten values and my mission statement for my LP, excellence is in my top ten, which can tend to make me seek 'perfectionism' because I don't mind spending more time, energy and attention into drawing or  rapping or gaming, and getting that ideal result in the process. I can also relate a little bit in empathy and understanding for the OCD bit as I do wash my hands and clean a bit more generally, which is why I felt intuitively something inaccurate with OP's statements regarding perfectionism being cruel and wrong and felt it's more projection. Also it's not the idea or concept itself being wrong/evil, it's how we embody towards these ideas and our behaviors that make it so, plus thinking too. I'd like to hear some arguments or counter arguments to this because it doesn't feel complete to me.

[Princess Arabia]

The title is a little bit harsh, don't ya think. Murder is wrong and cruel. If you just say you're a perfectionist without labelling it wrong and cruel, you wouldn't have such a hard time with it. Please, observe without judgement and life becomes a bit more manageable. 

[Danioover9000]

@Princess Arabia

1 minute ago, Princess Arabia said:

The title is a little bit harsh, don't ya think. Murder is wrong and cruel. If you just say you're a perfectionist without labelling it wrong and cruel, you wouldn't have such a hard time with it. Please, observe without judgement and life becomes a bit more manageable. 

   I partly agree that to use loaded terms like 'wrong' and 'cruel' as attributes for perfectionism is loaded and needs clarification.

note: Almost said OP was using poetry to personify perfectionism, but I don't know that felt strange and out of context. 

[Princess Arabia]

5 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Princess Arabia

   I partly agree that to use loaded terms like 'wrong' and 'cruel' as attributes for perfectionism is loaded and needs clarification.

note: Almost said OP was using poetry to personify perfectionism, but I don't know that felt strange and out of context. 

It doesn't need clarification. Just needs to be seen for what it is and just to put awareness on it and show it some love. If someone called me cruel, I'd probably want to act out too. That's the power we have. We don't understand what it means to have God-like powers. We can recontextualize anything and make it work for us instead of demonizing it. It's energetic and energy takes form. Now he has turned his perfectionism against him just from demonizing it.

[gettoefl]

make perfectionism a habit but not bone crushingly so

the more you do something, the less exertion it takes

you have to push yourself hard because everyone else is just keeping up with the kardashians and what kind of incarnation is that!

make life count, don't make life miserable

[jimwell]

On 12/22/2023 at 5:16 AM, Danioover9000 said:

@jimwell

   But isn't that more OCD and not perfectionism? Also, because of perfectionism is why past geniuses and legends who worked hard and pioneered developing fields for humanity the reason why mastery is a thing?

OCD is perfectionism. It's true that perfectionism often results in great things, but at a very high cost. Perfectionism inherently causes anxiety, guilt, depression, frustration, exhaustion, and more. Such forms of suffering can't be avoided because you can never be perfect, exactly because you're limited. Even when you feel you have accomplished perfection, it's often after going the extra thousand miles. Exhaustion is also woven into the fabric of perfectionism, making it unsustainable.

 

On 12/22/2023 at 5:18 AM, Danioover9000 said:

 

   To be more clear with the question, why is perfectionism wrong and cruel, but not the OCD itself? Is perfectionism and 'perfection' itself evil? 

Demanding perfectionism at a high level from somebody is, in a way, evil because it doesn't acknowledge the limits of being human and needlessly inflicts tremendous suffering. Perfectionism can even be used as a form of punishment.

Here's a true but tragic story which happened a few years ago.

There was a Japanese father who commanded his 4-year-old daughter to wake up at exactly 4 am every day to check her weight on a scale. The little girl had to record her weight in a notebook and maintain the same weight the entire year. If she made an error in the routine; such as waking up at 4:05 am (5 minutes late), forgetting to record her weight, or gaining even 1 pound; her father would hit her with a belt a few times. As a result, the little girl had bruises and scars on her body because she couldn't fulfill her father's demand 100 percent of the time.

I remember reading a girl's letter after being told by her father that she's a horrible girl for being imperfect. The letter goes something similar to this:

Quote

Forgive me, father, for being a bad daughter. I promise to wake up at 4 am tomorrow and record my weight. I'm sorry.

While reading the short letter, I imagined the little girl crying bearing bruises all over her body. I was overwhelmed with compassion for the little girl, and a murderous desire for her father; I found myself in tears. The little girl was innocent and didn't do anything wrong. But she blamed herself, instead of her bastardish father. Kids tend to blame themselves and internalize guilt because they instinctively idolize their parents and perceive them as perfect. This is based on my experience. When I was a kid, I blamed myself for enduring mental-emotional and physical abuse inflicted by my father.

It was winter in Japan and was freezing cold. Instead of hitting the little girl, the father left her on the balcony as a form of punishment whenever she made an error. One day, when he called her inside to get ready for school or daycare, the little girl didn't respond because she had frozen to death.

That was tragic as fuck, correct? That was popular news in Japan a few years ago. The father faced charges related to childhood abuse. How could it be abuse when the father simply showed love by demanding perfectionism from his daughter? Isn't perfectionism good and loving?

Demanding perfectionism can be deceptive and an expression of hate. It can also serve as a form of punishment. The expectations set are often exceedingly difficult to accomplish, particularly for a 4-year-old girl. Though the tragic story represents an extreme example, it clearly illustrates the cruelty and deceptive nature of perfectionism.

 

On 12/22/2023 at 6:30 AM, Danioover9000 said:

IMO, to me it just seems like the user @jimwell is either conflating the weaknesses of OCD with perfectionism, and maybe making both falsely equal, because Imma be honest, in my top ten values and my mission statement for my LP, excellence is in my top ten, which can tend to make me seek 'perfectionism' because I don't mind spending more time, energy and attention into drawing or  rapping or gaming, and getting that ideal result in the process.

It simply means you're NOT a perfectionist, which is why you strive for perfectionism. Perfectionists are the minority; they're rare. 

You must go for excellence, of course. You can even use the term "perfectionism" interchangeably with "excellence". This approach will help you produce higher-quality work.

But if you do become a perfectionist, I guarantee you will experience the suffering I discussed in this thread. And you won't be happy about it.

 

On 12/22/2023 at 8:33 AM, Princess Arabia said:

The title is a little bit harsh, don't ya think. Murder is wrong and cruel. If you just say you're a perfectionist without labelling it wrong and cruel, you wouldn't have such a hard time with it. Please, observe without judgement and life becomes a bit more manageable. 

No, girl. My perfectionism has been inflicting suffering on me for many years despite not labeling it as wrong and cruel.  

After deep contemplation and self-honesty, I became aware that demanding perfectionism is deceptive because it can be disguised as goodness and love, when, in reality, it's cruel and disconnected from reality.

 

On 12/23/2023 at 0:14 AM, gettoefl said:

make perfectionism a habit but not bone crushingly so

That's mild perfectionism, which is a good thing. Even mild OCD is a very good thing. I wish humans had mild OCD to make them aware of how dirty (literally and metaphorically) they are. It would also motivate them to make themselves cleaner.

 

On 12/23/2023 at 0:14 AM, gettoefl said:

you have to push yourself hard because everyone else is just keeping up with the kardashians and what kind of incarnation is that!

[Princess Arabia]

5 minutes ago, jimwell said:

My perfectionism has been inflicting suffering on me

I'm trying to show you how claiming things as yours will inflict pain and suffering. Perfectionism now found itself a home and because it's not welcome it suffers. You have to start to dissociate one from the other. Perfectionism is a label you have put unto some form of behavior and now you're claiming perfectionism to be yours. My arthritis, my depression, my weight, my anxiety, my this, my that. Ownership. The ego doesn't like to lose anything. You are creating your own suffering by claiming these things to be yours. 

[jimwell]

1 minute ago, Princess Arabia said:

I'm trying to show you how claiming things as yours will inflict pain and suffering. Perfectionism now found itself a home and because it's not welcome it suffers. You have to start to dissociate one from the other. Perfectionism is a label you have put unto some form of behavior and now you're claiming perfectionism to be yours. My arthritis, my depression, my weight, my anxiety, my this, my that. Ownership. The ego doesn't like to lose anything. You are creating your own suffering by claiming these things to be yours. 

 What? 

Step out of the spiritual mumbo jumbo zone, girl.

[Princess Arabia]

Just now, jimwell said:

 What? 

Step out of the spiritual mumbo jumbo zone, girl.

It's OK, it's not your time yet, enjoy your suffering. Not saying I don't suffer too, we all do, but nothing else is more important to me than to understand Reality, how the mind works, Consciousness, Awareness etcetc. If you want to call your world and how it's being created mumbo jumbo, suit yourself. I'm not in the business of suffering and delusion and I will continue to learn who I am, become self aware, and trust in the know. If someone tries to show me something I'm not aware of, and what might eliminate my self-inflicted pain and suffering, I will investigate it, contemplate it and use my own discernment before just blatantly dismissing them and calling what they have to say mumbo jumbo just because I'm not familiar with it. Suit yourself and feel free to fight the world from the outside in. It's a mental Universe so I will continue to develop my mind and use it - not let it use me.

[bebotalk]

On 21/12/2023 at 8:27 PM, jimwell said:

I have been struggling with perfectionism for many years. Despite the great, mind-boggling accomplishments I've gained from self-development or internal work, one of the very few things I've never accomplished is overcoming perfectionism. For example, I wash my hands every time I touch an object which belongs to others. If I'm in a situation where I'm forced to keep that object, such as receiving a physical gift from somebody, I ensure I clean the object first before keeping it. When I arrive home from work or leisure, I ensure to take a shower before going to bed and clean all the things I brought, such as my bag, smartphone, and wallet. I do this 100% of the time, regardless of how sleepy or tired I am. If I don't do it, I feel dirty and anxious. I love cleanliness too much; it has resulted in OCD.

I also apply the same principle to other domains in life. I push myself too hard to ensure I accomplish or demonstrate 100% understanding, bravery, morality, masculinity, etc. If it's 98%, I feel guilty, anxious, or depressed. It must be 100% for me to feel fulfilled and peaceful.

This love for perfectionism has been giving me extreme, needless suffering. I've been enduring the unendurable for too many years; I'm exhausted as fuck.

A few hours ago, I contemplated all this very deeply and seriously. I generated an insight which is very obvious to me now, but couldn't see in the past. I asked ChatGPT to explain the insight on perfectionism I generated because I've always been amazed by ChatGPT's intelligence.

    

I shared this insight to remind myself of the change I need to make. I could have kept this to myself and still initiated the needed change. So, the other reason for sharing this insight is to help others struggling with perfectionism. I'm probably not solitary in this struggle.

Perfectionism is a pipedream. 

However, there is little wrong with striving for things.

[gettoefl]

i brainstormed together with chat-gpt some possible antidotes to perfectionism and came up with ...

• Confidence
• Flexibility
• Tolerance
• Realism
• Ease
• Laissez-faire (which i re-interpret as whatever happens is not just from me but for me)
• Peace

... some ideas worthy of a contemplation

Edited December 27, 2023 by gettoefl

[jimwell]

On 12/27/2023 at 1:42 AM, Princess Arabia said:

If someone tries to show me something I'm not aware of, and what might eliminate my self-inflicted pain and suffering, I will investigate it, contemplate it and use my own discernment before just blatantly dismissing them and calling what they have to say mumbo jumbo just because I'm not familiar with it.

I'm aware of no-self and neo-Advaita spiritual insights, which is why I warned you because they can do more harm than good.

If you were experiencing a nasty toothache, no amount of "no self", "no experiencer", or similar concepts would relieve the pain. What you must do is go to the dentist's office to have it extracted or root-canaled.

 

On 12/28/2023 at 0:29 AM, gettoefl said:

i brainstormed together with chat-gpt some possible antidotes to perfectionism and came up with ...

• Confidence
• Flexibility
• Tolerance
• Realism
• Ease
• Laissez-faire (which i re-interpret as whatever happens is not just from me but for me)
• Peace

... some ideas worthy of a contemplation

Realism, and "laissez-faire" as you interpret it, can help.

Edited December 29, 2023 by jimwell

[sholomar]

Perfectionism breeds a control freak style micromanagement mentality that conflicts with what personal development is truly about... peace of mind and radical acceptance of the present moment.  It's okay to strive for things for yourself as part of your growth process to climb Maslow's Hierarchy of needs, as long as you don't equate that with thinking everyone else should have to or forced to be like you, like vegans tend to do when they turn their diet into a religion.

My father is guilty of this with his obsession over diet and order in general. He finds some new truth he then latches onto and thinks is right and then wants to spread it around to everyone else. I mean, I get it, but after a point  you have to let people find their own truth. Plus, how does he even know his truth is the right one? I'm constantly self checking my own BS but that's a hard skill to learn.

Nevermind there's no reason whatsoever to wash your hands when touching something someone else touched. I would call this obsessive compulsive disorder.   You should unlearn these habits by being a slob on purpose and find a balance for yourself. Healthy personal development  "it's okay if it happens, it's okay if it doesn't."

Edited December 29, 2023 by sholomar

[Yimpa]

Perfectionism is basically the need for control and for things to go a specific way. However, this assumes that you were ever in control of how things unfold to begin with. Notice how much more openness there is when you relinquish control or even a controller controlling control.

[Princess Arabia]

3 hours ago, jimwell said:

I'm aware of no-self and neo-Advaita spiritual insights, which is why I warned you because they can do more harm than good.

It's not about those fancy Spiritual terms and non-dualism and no-self, it's about how energy works and how the mind works. I don't care about terms and no self when it comes to the tricks of the mind. That's real stuff. You have a mind that can play tricks on you and you are operating on a program. All of us are. You want to be in control so bad and that need for control will make you suffer like it's doing with the energy of perfectionism. 

You can dismiss all you want the fact that you are not controlling jack-shit or you might take it upon yourself to start to understand how energy works, the mind works and it's tendencies to want to take ownership of things and how it likes to put label on things etc. 

Yes, we continue to do daily chores and live life normally like going to the dentist; but that doesn't take away from the nature of Reality and the mind. They are interconnected and intertwined. I am not just talking from my ass here, I have full-on experience on what letting go of certain things can do which brings us closer to the true nature of who we truly are; and why we suffer so much is because we don't have a clue who we are at the core, and we fight life thinking we know it all and then the result is you coming on a forum saying how something is making you suffer and now you want to dismiss what I'm saying as spiritual mumbo jumbo and give it fancy terms like Neo-Advaita. I don't know anything about that, all I know is energy is at play here and our minds will drive us down a hell hole, figuratively speaking, if we let it.

One way to not let that happen is to not claim ownership of a condition that has affected it and it will slowly dissolve into the sea from which it came. What we focus on magnifies because of the light that is being shun unto it because your true nature is Awareness. Perfect and pure. It has been distorted and veiled and now you as Awareness is projecting that distortion thinking that it's who you are and now you suffer. "My perfectionism" has been brought to the forefront and now you're having to disown it but don't know how.

You stop saying "my perfectionism" will be a start and looking at it from a distance, understand that it's an energetic pattern that has been woven and then try to deconstruct it from where it originated which is in the mind. Observe the thoughts that come to you when you feel this energy arise and try to see what belief is behind the thought that you are clinging unto. It is a false belief. Change it. Feel the emotion that arises with that thought and let it pass through you. 

That's as far as I'll go with this as I'm not even sure you'll resonate with what i'm saying, since you seem to very materialistic in your thinking and don't understand the mental vibe of your essence. 

 

[SeaMonster]

Just notice the obvious logical contradiction: perfectionism is imperfect because it keeps you from accomplishing many of your goals.

*head explodes*