Existential Terror, Death and The Paradox

[ivankiss]

There is a fear, deep, deep down beneath. A fear that is not necessarily tied to one's survival. It is not a fear of death, really. It is deeper than that. Much more terrifying. Paralyzing.

It does not exclude death, but what is truly feared seems to lay beyond death. It seems to occur once death has already passed through being and has done its deed. 

It is The Fear of God. And what God seems to be most afraid of... is seeing its own face. Figuratively speaking, of course.

This might not be the most un - deluded way to describe it, but imagine recognizing your own face in the mirror, for the very first time ever. Imagine freaking the fuck out about it, because all this time you had no idea that the mirror is showing your face. You had no idea what the reflection was saying. In fact, you had no idea that there was a reflection or a mirror to begin with.

It's kind of like that, except that it's awareness recognizing itself as awareness. Seeing itself in the mirror - if you will. Catching its own reflection. In real time.

The experience is beyond my ability to articulate. In fact, it could be said that there, precisely there, is where experience dissolves. There is no experience in pure light.

But what 'leads to that' and 'how it comes to that' - if you will... is breathtaking - to say the least. 

Frozen in terror. Existential paradox.

To do is to not do.

To see is to not see.

To be is to not be.

Infinite paradox. In every direction, in every way. Unavoidable. Unstoppable. Ripple effect. A downward spiral only to resurface. The walls are closing in, there is less and less breath, but more and more light. Vortex.

And then... nothing. Not even that.

Does this ring a bell? 

[Galyna]

3 hours ago, ivankiss said:

it's awareness recognizing itself as awareness.

@ivankiss very poetic description….

Thanks for sharing.
can you please elaborate on it? Because in all honesty”awareness recognizes itself as awareness “? How? By which means?  There should be a distance between the observation and the observable. However, awareness is non dual, so to speak. 
Is it possible that it is still a mind playing tricks on itself ? 

[ivankiss]

11 hours ago, Galyna said:

@ivankiss very poetic description….

Thanks for sharing.
can you please elaborate on it? Because in all honesty”awareness recognizes itself as awareness “? How? By which means?  There should be a distance between the observation and the observable. However, awareness is non dual, so to speak. 
Is it possible that it is still a mind playing tricks on itself ? 

Self - awareness. 

Awareness is nondual, indeed. But there is a portion of awareness - if you will - that does not recognize itself as awareness. And that precise moment when it does, which is obviously always now... that's when experience dissolves, that's when there is no more observer and the observed, that's when there is nothing but awareness at all.

It is in its nature to be (self) aware. It does not require anything over there to be aware of, it does not require an over here, and it does not require a distance in - between. It is just aware. And there is nothing else for it to be aware of other than itself.

But also, yes, it is most definitely the mind (which is awareness too) playing tricks on itself. If there is a game, this is the very final level. The endgame.

4 hours ago, Squeekytoy said:

It's fear of not existing, of vanishing forever. 

That would still point towards death, just some more meta form perhaps.

- Which is a legit fear, for sure. But I would say that fully recognizing yourself as you are, in your entirety, in your infinitude... that's the biggest fear of them all. It includes death but it does not stop there.

It exists for a very good reason - I'd say. And if transcended, there is unity only. God is.

Edited December 20, 2023 by ivankiss

[ivankiss]

4 minutes ago, Squeekytoy said:

Isn't that fear of nothingness? How is that different from fear of non-existence? 

Because there is no such thing as non existence. There is only infinite existence.

Death is an illusion. Very real as an experience. But experience as a whole is illusory. Pure existence extends beyond death. Beyond experience.

Being cannot be killed.

6 minutes ago, Squeekytoy said:

And why would you be afraid of it unless you didn't recognize it as yourself? 

Because it's not exactly a walk in the park. It is quite literally the most mind - blowing thing in existence. If one is on this path and does not experience absolute fear and terror at some point, something's not right.

What I'm doing here, is digging into that fear, trying to understand and explain it.

[Galyna]

1 hour ago, ivankiss said:

Self - awareness. 

Awareness is nondual, indeed. But there is a portion of awareness - if you will - that does not recognize itself as awareness. And that precise moment when it does, which is obviously always now... that's when experience dissolves, that's when there is no more observer and the observed, that's when there is nothing but awareness at all.

It is in its nature to be (self) aware. It does not require anything over there to be aware of, it does not require an over here, and it does not require a distance in - between. It is just aware. And there is nothing else for it to be aware of other than itself.

But also, yes, it is most definitely the mind (which is awareness too) playing tricks in itself. If there is a game, this is the very final level. The endgame.

I know exactly what you are talking about, therefore I was asking you : who was there to register the experience, when you said awareness becomes aware of itself, first I thought it was your mind playing a game of separation, since there is no one there to register it. 

here is what I wrote three years ago about my non-dual experience:

 

In order to understand Oneness, one has to receive the experience of being Nothing. As soon as you pass through the experience of being nothing, this thought about others vs. me would never occur in your mind.

The only difficulties on my way to understanding and grasping that everything is one was in fact the belief in the so-called POV.

Once you become raw experience - literally become a raw experience where "being" (hearing, seeing, feeling, and perceiving) just happens - you would not experience such a thing as POV. At that particular time, you will lose the sense of self and you will become nothing. When you become nothing you would not have any registration whatsoever of the particular moment of time. You literally become a raw experience. When this happens, you can only recognize that when experience has already taken place, but not when you are fully in it, because there is no one to register that experience. When you retrospect about losing yourself, you see that you literally became nothing - there was no one behind the scenes, just raw experience. Raw experience does not hold ownership, therefore there is no such things as others or me. There is only this experience. Which feels like never happened when you think about it. Call it a dream if you want. But it never happened.

So, in order to understand if others exist or not, get rid of your current POV. And the way to do it is to become awareness that is not aware of itself and relax and go with the flow. Once you pass through this experience and you literally become nothing, the question about "me vs. other" will resolve on its own. All you need to do is to change the paradigm, not in your mind, but rather, you're getting rid of your POV here, which is on your way to a bigger understanding.

Being aware of being aware is the first, initial, and important step to become nothing. The second step will be full relaxation where you are not aware anymore of the observer, you just become what you are observing. Once you're there, it will lead you to the experience of becoming nothing. When you become nothing, you would understand that there is no such thing as others. The topic about solipsism will be closed forever. Please don't be too strict about my works -- I'm using a linguistic language to frame this concept.

 

 

[ivankiss]

@Squeekytoy For sure. I imagine we only use a slightly different language but are pointing towards the same thing.

@Galyna Yes, I like how you put that. Thank you.

I heard this once, and I like to think about it that way... 

From a how's or a who's point of view, it happens... backwards.

 

[Galyna]

@ivankiss There is no one at home! That is the point, no one behind the scene. 
Reality is a verb but not a noun. Conversation happens on its own and no one needed for it to happen. It is really amazing, mind blowing. 
Also realize that mind loves conceptual thinking and language is a barrier here. Would help a lot of seekers if they lose ability to speak and understand human languages. I also wrote about how language creates meaning. 
Actually, “we are “at the beginning, not at the end of the path….

Also, this fear of yours is directly connected to this center you call “I”. You are not scared to die. You are scared to lose the idea , which is not real anyway. Death will never happen. Mind will rearrange “reality” and you won’t be you anymore but will be continued as “something else”. But ofc existence will never disappear. So every single attribute your mind uses to construct this personal reality for this character will be demolished. Death is very similar to a night dreaming. You will disappear as a solid Ivan and reappear as something else, exactly what you do every night . Do you remember Ivan when dreaming? Do you care about his current life? You don’t even know sometimes that Ivan exists. 

[ivankiss]

@Galyna Yes. What I'm referring to in this thread is but a memory in my mind right now. A memory of completing the cycle - if you will. The fear I am referring to is also not present at the moment. It is tied to this memory of facing complete annihilation. I can flirt with it and evoke it, but right now, I am nowhere near to that horrific experience held in this memory.

Ideas, beliefs, identities... None of that is bothering me really. In fact, I am trying to be as creative as I can with those and make them as reflective of my true nature as possible. It's very much like a game, or a dream, yes. But also, not at all.

It is good to be aware and see things for what they are. But that does not mean those things are in your way. It is good to see a thought, an idea, a belief for what it is. But it's not necessarily in your way. Same way I see a cup in front of me now. It's good to be aware that it's just a label projected on raw reality, but it is also good to simply pick up the cup and have some coffee. Perhaps have a little chat over it with your friend.

Awareness is not afraid of dreaming. It is more afraid of waking up, if anything. But once that's done too, going in and out, beyond and deep under, is all good. The light is never truly forgotten, no matter how dark it gets. And just because it's a dream, it does not mean it has to be dark, not at all.

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by ivankiss

[Galyna]

29 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

What I'm referring to in this thread is but a memory in my mind right now

What if I tell you that there is no such thing as memory, what you call memory is information that is catered to this dream character as it appears in so called time and space reality.

Everything has been catered to this illusory dream persona: memory, life history, time - space continuum. In fact, all these attributes create You.

YOU ARE A PROCESS, right, since you do not exist, but when those characteristics of reality merge together and are spliced they create you!

And now, my friend, your biggest issue is that you clearly see it. You clearly see that you can not be found anywhere, it was just a glitch in consciousness. And this scares you the most, how come that I am not real, how come that I do not exist....

37 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

It is tied to this memory of facing complete annihilation.

An idea has recognized itself as an idea (because you are not a human being) and now it does not want to give up.

It cries, it tries to compromise, to do anything to survive. And you seeing it as not real. It disappears in the light of your awareness cause you can not fool yourself anymore. 

IT does not want to die. But it is dying, no choice here, you can not go back...sorry. This is the hardest part, resurrection of ego. 

 

[Yimpa]

Opposites attract 

[Yimpa]

25 minutes ago, Squeekytoy said:

In this battle, god/maya is your enemy, and you will lose.

In this field, devil is your friend, and that devil is in the details.

 

ChatGPT:

Quote

The battlefield, with its inherent opposition, is also a place where such contrasts are most apparent. The flower field can symbolize the battlefield of life, where the struggle and beauty coexist, and it’s in the minute details that we often find the strategies and tools to not just survive but thrive.

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Yimpa

[Hojo]

I remember a nightmare I had as a child barney rubble and Fred Flintstone are walking and talking  down  a road. As they walk the background dissapear and they stop talking but their mouths keep moving and they are still acting like they are talking to eachother. I didn't know until recently but it was my mind showing me that nothing is happening. And the fear that came with the dream was intense. We are scared of nothing because nothing is the end of us.

If you can remeber and decipher dreams you had as a child you will see your mind during dream is creating your reality and showing you how its doing it at the same time but you don't have the language to articulate it so you don't know what's happening. You will probably remeber you have had dreams that were trying to show you God and the fear that comes with seeing God. Its like an eerie weird terror feeling

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Hojo

[ivankiss]

On 12/20/2023 at 5:51 PM, Galyna said:

how come that I am not real, how come that I do not exist....

One saying to another one that they do not exist is a paradox. It is a nonsensical thing to do. 

Are you telling it to yourself through me or am I telling it to myself through you? Perhaps both and none simultaneously.

There is no need for anyone to know about their supposed existence or non-existence. It is impossible to know. Let alone communicate it.

 

[ivankiss]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:35 PM, Hojo said:

Its like an eerie weird terror feeling

Da.

Some wild dreams you're having there brother.

[Yimpa]

7 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

There is no need for anyone to know about their supposed existence or non-existence. It is impossible to know. Let alone communicate it.

From a nihilistic perspective, this is true. Not from an alien perspective, though.

I am not claiming that one is better than the other.

[ivankiss]

15 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

From a nihilistic perspective, this is true. Not from an alien perspective, though.

Bro, that's it, you cracked it...

It's just an alien having a nihilistic crisis. That's what all this is. It's all in an alien's mind.

[Yimpa]

2 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

Bro, that's it, you cracked it...

It's just an alien having a nihilistic crisis. That's what all this is. It's all in an alien's mind.

I certainly didn’t imagine that aspect! YOU did!

[Galyna]

55 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

Are you telling it to yourself through me

“Myself” through “you”….

Edited December 23, 2023 by Galyna

[Galyna]

26 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

I certainly didn’t imagine that aspect! YOU did!

😂😂😂

[ivankiss]

Imperfection you will find
Look close enough, tear off the mask I need
This endeavor is not mine
You subject me to the daggers you conceive

I'm stronger than I was before
Thus you reinforce these walls, I can't fight you anymore
Threatened by the open door
All the chances I ignore, I can't stand still anymore