The more you think you can win debates or change people's minds

[numbersinarow]

The less aware you are.

An intellectual thinks "this person here is a snake with a million different mind limiters and ideological trappings who would sway the audience against me or use logical fallacies/sophistry and make me look bad." not "I have my argument I am going to win it's so convincing!"

There is no such thing as failure in the blue value system or the orange value system. Only satanists don't buy your amazing conversion tactics. Failures are only trivial things leading up to your success, there are no locked-in self-interested systems. Or that's what you're told.

[Danioover9000]

@numbersinarow

59 minutes ago, numbersinarow said:

The less aware you are.

An intellectual thinks "this person here is a snake with a million different mind limiters and ideological trappings who would sway the audience against me or use logical fallacies/sophistry and make me look bad." not "I have my argument I am going to win it's so convincing!"

There is no such thing as failure in the blue value system or the orange value system. Only satanists don't buy your amazing conversion tactics. Failures are only trivial things leading up to your success, there are no locked-in self-interested systems. Or that's what you're told.

   Well, that depends on many developmental factors like Spiral Dynamics stages of development(by Don Beck and Clare Graves.), cognitive and moral development, personality typing/traits(by Myers Briggs and big five personality traits modal), 9 stages of ego development(by Jane Loevinger), Integral Theory's other lines of development in life and society(by Ken Wilbur), and other ideological beliefs indoctrinated by culture and family upbringing, and the information ecology we're in.

   Specific to this context, the true nature of arguing and debating needs arguers/debater a problem that's in conflict between them, which creates this codependency that makes both arguers dependent on an issue or resolution that needs solving in the middle, creating this triangular structure that sucks in those of the opposite ideologies and polarity, and other outside points of view into giving their beliefs or opinions thinking their opinions mean anything when in fact they're figments of fantasy of reality. This triangular structure engineers the necessity to be disingenuous and bad faith tactics, bad faith communicate to demean the other side and win this power game/power dynamics. 

[Princess Arabia]

2 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

 Well, that depends on many developmental factors like Spiral Dynamics stages of development(by Don Beck and Clare Graves.), cognitive and moral development, personality typing/traits(by Myers Briggs and big five personality traits modal), 9 stages of ego development(by Jane Loevinger), Integral Theory's other lines of development in life and society(by Ken Wilbur), and other ideological beliefs indoctrinated by culture and family upbringing, and the information ecology we're in.

Is this remark copied somewhere, ready to be pasted on demand?

[KoryKat]

The reason you can't change people's mind is usually because they are on a different level (such as Spiral Dynamics) 

 

So you are arguing different systems of values.

 

Let's say I am ego-centric narcissist level, and you are rational-thinking level... I would value how strong I look so I would use language like Donald Trump... You might value facts and logic, so you could say "hey he's bullshitting , don't believe anything he says cuz he's a liar". ,well I don't care about truth/rationality, i care about power and strength, so if he is looking strong and powerful, then im like "hell ya go trump!"

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by KoryKat

[Princess Arabia]

4 minutes ago, KoryKat said:

The reason you can't change people's mind is usually because they are on a different level (such as Spiral Dynamics) 

 

So you are arguing different systems of values.

 

 

That's so true. I tend to forget that sometimes but I'm aware of it. Windows 8 arguing with Windows 10. 

Edited December 19, 2023 by Princess Arabia

[Yimpa]

Somedays what you see outside the window is sunny. Other times it is dark. Other times it is rainy.

Do you argue with your window to change the weather?

[Rafael Thundercat]

2 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

Is this remark copied somewhere, ready to be pasted on demand?

Dani have a pre-edited post that inclued all that shabang by defaut whenever he or she post. Funny I dont even no if is a dude or Girl. 

[Princess Arabia]

1 minute ago, Rafael Thundercat said:

Dani have a pre-edited post that inclued all that shabang by defaut whenever he or she post. Funny I dont even no if is a dude or Girl. 

Lol

[Rafael Thundercat]

You decide how to use you limited present time and energy. Win Debates or Create Beauty. 

[Yimpa]

38 minutes ago, Rafael Thundercat said:

Win Debates or Create Beauty. 

When the debating starts, the suffering starts.

[Danioover9000]

@Princess Arabia

5 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

Is this remark copied somewhere, ready to be pasted on demand?

No, I type it.

Edited December 19, 2023 by Danioover9000

[Carl-Richard]

5 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

Is this remark copied somewhere, ready to be pasted on demand?

He prefers to be very concrete and thorough.

 

[Nilsi]

3 hours ago, Rafael Thundercat said:

You decide how to use you limited present time and energy. Win Debates or Create Beauty. 

Debating essentially means persuading others of your vision. Creating beauty means actualizing a very high level vision.

One might argue that the world is inherently beautiful, and I tend to agree, but this notion becomes quite meaningless when it comes to actually creating beauty.

Take the example of an architect with a vision to construct a magnificent opera house. This endeavor requires more than just some lofty ideal of „creating beauty.“ The architect must engage in numerous debates and battles to bring this vision to life. Convincing investors to provide funding; sourcing the appropriate materials and managing their logistics; the leadership and coordination of a large team of workers; etc.

With this happy-go-lucky attitude towards the creation of beauty, your vision will inevitably be influenced and distorted by all sorts of external forces and you will end up with an extremely compromised low grade form of beauty.

[Nilsi]

5 hours ago, KoryKat said:

The reason you can't change people's mind is usually because they are on a different level (such as Spiral Dynamics) 

 

So you are arguing different systems of values.

 

Let's say I am ego-centric narcissist level, and you are rational-thinking level... I would value how strong I look so I would use language like Donald Trump... You might value facts and logic, so you could say "hey he's bullshitting , don't believe anything he says cuz he's a liar". ,well I don't care about truth/rationality, i care about power and strength, so if he is looking strong and powerful, then im like "hell ya go trump!"

 

What about developing yourself to such a high level that you signal leadership to all the stages simultaneously?

[Yimpa]

13 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

What about developing yourself to such a high level that you signal leadership to all the stages simultaneously?

You wouldn’t even waste time with nonsense. You’d be so out-of-this-world that it wouldn’t matter to you what human baloney is going on.

[Rafael Thundercat]

20 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Debating essentially means persuading others of your vision. Creating beauty means actualizing a very high level vision.

One might argue that the world is inherently beautiful, and I tend to agree, but this notion becomes quite meaningless when it comes to actually creating beauty.

Take the example of an architect with a vision to construct a magnificent opera house. This endeavor requires more than just some lofty ideal of „creating beauty.“ The architect must engage in numerous debates and battles to bring this vision to life. Convincing investors to provide funding; sourcing the appropriate materials and managing their logistics; the leadership and coordination of a large team of workers; etc.

With this happy-go-lucky attitude towards the creation of beauty, your vision will inevitably be influenced and distorted by all sorts of external forces and you will end up with an extremely compromised low grade form of beauty.

Now compare the creative endeavors of this architect and his firceness to have his project respected and executed to the useless debates about Destiny, Youtubers and yadayada. The architect in the end have something concrete after his figth dp reach a conclusion of the work. Sometimes the building is not even so beutifull but at least the debates were worth something. This is the distiction I try to point. 

[Nilsi]

11 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

You wouldn’t even waste time with nonsense. You’d be so out-of-this-world that it wouldn’t matter to you what human baloney is going on.

What makes you think that?

One example of a very well integrated and developed leader is Barack Obama — he decided to pursue a major career in politics and had to deal with all sorts of human baloney.

Another example is Friedrich Nietzsche — a hermit philosopher that spent the majority of his adult life in remote isolation to contemplate reality and write down his insights.

Of course we can debate to what extent these examples are valid, but that’s besides the point. What shouldn’t be arguable, is that there are lots and lots of ways, in which this kind of development can manifest itself in a person.

[Yimpa]

2 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Of course we can debate to what extent these examples are valid, but that’s besides the point. What shouldn’t be arguable, is that there are lots and lots of ways, in which this kind of development can manifest itself in a person.

Yes, human development is certainly human in nature.

[Danioover9000]

   Is this a good example of arguing and debating leading to less self awareness?