The Truth. Full stop. The end of gatekeeping and bypassing.

[Yimpa]

Just now, Anon212 said:

@Yimpa I'm gonna say that to Donald Trump to see if he becomes a non-dualist

Not necessary, a certainly a waste of time. Convincing others of something they are not is foolish behavior. Allow and accept everything to be as it is.

[Rafael Thundercat]

3 hours ago, Anon212 said:

@Yimpa  You are not "bridging the (paradoxical) gap" between absolute consciousness and "getting the person" there. Just speaking in riddles and spinning the wheel. It sounds like you have a box full of papers with non-dual comments written on them and each time you pull out a piece of paper and write a wise non-dual quote on here

I am beginning to see the deep and subtle traps in non-duality, I hope I meet a three-horned alien one day that can telepathically teach me about reality...  THAT is "bridging the gap" right there

I imagine one of these guy who get awke by reading non dual quotes from a box. He comes suddenly to his wife in the living room and exclaim : Baby, I understood the core or reality!! Is Just this!! See! Just this! Simple. 

She give him a rooling eyes and say in a ironic tone of voice: Ok Spira, now go to the kitchen check the Chicken in the Oven please!!

 

[Exystem]

Sorry for reviving this thread and the late answer - I was very engaged in different activities the last months and then I realized I forgot to respond to you @Anon212.

I really appreciate your in-depth-answers and questions, I love people like you that are really arguing, you ask the right questions and have a great skill to point out the weak spots! That deserves an appropriate response.

So here it is

On 17.12.2023 at 3:13 PM, Anon212 said:

I think the idea of becoming accomplished in any domain without a teacher is insane and especially so for spirituality. For example, if I wanted to go and master boxing, I most certainly need a teacher for effective development, to help me avoid common mistakes, for proper guidance etc etc.. Some teachers will be better than others, teachers will have different methods and my goal of mastering boxing will occur overtime through persistent practice, making finer and finer distinctions, getting feedback and so on... The same goes for spirituality although in the opposite direction of eliminating distinctions.

In my eyes a siritual teacher is nothing but a pointer, even though it can (!) be a "good one", always light the fuse at both ends, so take as many pointers as you can but then realize no matter how many precise pointers, they are incapable of pointing to the Isness of everything. It's sooo here and now that every step towards it is an illusion perpetuating the illusion of a "next step needed". Like I would try to show you to yourself and said "take a step towards yourself, go find yourself!" Would you start going?

On 17.12.2023 at 3:13 PM, Anon212 said:

My primary problems with non-duality are as follows: they undermine awakening as some sort of simple experience. It is not simple it is the most mind-boggling and extraordinary thing that can happen to a person. How the fuck is infinity simple???

That what's pointed to is not a simple experience that can happen to a person since awakeness is not an experience and it doesn't happen to a person. "Awakening" is a story in your head telling you "this is not it but once there was/will be a time I have awoken/going to awaken" - so in that sense to an individual it becomes an experience, it turns it into a story and makes it extraordinary.
But that which is everything just always is what it is - that's unimaginably simple. The ordinaryness of being god timelessly is in a way much simpler than the complicated web of illusions a human mind spins around it, though ultimately there is no difference between those two of course, which is the simplest way it could be. Even the fantastical idea of something ever being able to be "ordinary" is completely extraordinary if you think about it. But since everything is extraordinary in that sense, the extraordinaryness is nothing but absolutely ordinary - means simple, simply never not the case.
You create the extraordinaryness of awakening by contrasting it to something imagined to be ordinary like this moment right now, something you take for granted. But everything is an infinite mystery, especially the sense of ordinaryness, THIS "experience" right here and now. So awakeness is simple, simply always here and now, the story of (an) awakening (process) oftentimes is a complicated, nested idea about climbing the infinite latter into meta-now, with backsteps included of course.

On 17.12.2023 at 3:13 PM, Anon212 said:

In my experience, anyone that talks about non-duality is often not enlightened, awake or free. You can talk as much as you like about it but you are not Ramana Maharshi. The biggest question right now is that in your experience right now ARE YOU FREE? If not, what the hell are you yapping about?

You are imagining Ramana. Basically, I am the same as Ramana. So are you. We're stories. There is no one to be free since everything is freedom and it can appear as a person looking for freedom. "I" is always bound to boundaries, but unconditional freedom is free to appear as that, too.
If I told you I am free and convinced you of it you would want that too - which keeps you trapped. Looking for freedom solidifies the idea that this is not free already.
If I told you I am not free and convinced you of it, for a brief moment you would seem more contempt since you want to belief in the idea that you will become free one day and this idea is not taken away from you. But this idea gets worn out quickly. You don't actually want to become free, you want to be free. And you actually want to be free of that nasty need to be free. And you are already.
Right now you are already infinite freedom appearing as "someone" wanting to be so free that you are even free of the need to be free. And so free is everything, since you're it.

On 17.12.2023 at 3:13 PM, Anon212 said:

Most extraordinary teachers had to undergo intensive practices to liberate themselves... that IS the PARADOX. It is a process, yet it isn't - if you don't strive for it, it won't happen, I honestly wasted a year of my life with non-duality never attaining freedom. When I started intense kriya yoga and contemplation, I made fleeting leaps in consciousness. It would not have happened without yoga and contemplation, yet once in that place it felt wrong to credit it to doing yoga or contemplating. because whatever is just IS. See... PARADOX.

Yeah it's kind of a paradox. But as long as you believe you can/should/do strive for it, it won't happen either. So you're fucked.

On 17.12.2023 at 3:13 PM, Anon212 said:

This is kind of information is dangerous especially for newbies because they will sit around doing nothing calling themselves God, yet they are not free. Spirituality is most certainly a process (paradoxically) and take most teachers as examples:

Sadghuru (multiple lifetimes apparently)

Peter Ralston (decades of contemplation)

Mooji (years of contemplation)

Ruper Spira (20+ years of contemplation)

Even Ramana Maharshi attained by contemplating death (as brief as it was)

Leo (decades of work but his understanding of reality is quite different)

Ram Dass (Decades of spiritual work and in the end he didn't claim total freedom)

Alan Watts (Profound understanding of reality but he was not free)

Yeah there's an apparent downside to it as with everything, of course. People (mis)interpret everything according to their developmental stage etc. Suffering is a great teacher - it will keep you going and kick you in the ass and out of your comfortzone if you stayed in one position for long enough. Every positioning is a trap, since there's nobody to localize, nothing to pin down. It's actually not said there's nothing to do but nobody there to do or not to do, which is useless gibberish for someone who wants to get something to (not) do.
The teachers you listed can appear as words on a screen with a huge backup story (like in this thread on your screen), or as humans made of flesh, touchable. In both cases, there is no priveledged private absolute knowledge within them, hidden from you. Their appearance alone is already the mirroring of everything you ever sought - yourself, the absolute. It's in plain sight, everywhere. No lifetimes of spiritual practice get you here. But spiritual practice can of course and in your case obviously did happen (as a memory/thought right now) - in the story it actually seems to correlate with a dissolution of the story (there must be some story about story dissolution, too, of course). So nothing wrong with it - I am not saying you should stop it. I am just proposing that all kinds of stories perpetuate the claim for "first this or that needs to happen for THIS to finally be what's longed for", but these are illusiory thoughts. Feel free to treat them as real as they appear to you, since the thought "so then I should treat them as illusory" would of course be another one you would treat as real again.

On 17.12.2023 at 3:13 PM, Anon212 said:

The key point you make is regarding stories. But stories is not the only thing that makes up reality, sure you can let go of stories but what about the context that allows stories to arise?  That is another distinction made by you which you are unaware of and that too influences your perception and prevents access to the Absolute Now.

"The context that allows stories to arise" is another story of course. You can infinitely regress / go meta by introducing new concepts. Take away the word story. Call it illusion. Or thought. Or whatever. "Let go of stories" is another one.

On 17.12.2023 at 3:13 PM, Anon212 said:

As I write this, that context is not there in my experience, it takes intense contemplation to access the "context", but that is just one such example of a morass of concepts beyond stories that prevent access to this moment.

There is no access to this moment. There is no access to that which is the access, the accessor and the accessed at the same time. The idea that sometimes you are not "in the present moment" so you need to first access it shows that this "you" is coming and going, not real. Sometimes here sometimes not. Sometimes now sometimes not.
The "but you can get lost in thoughts?!"- thought may arise - it's an appearance. Everything on the appearance-level is happening Right Now, the idea something has happened is an appearance happening Right Now. No escape. Never anything could ever not be now, although convincing stories may appear to claim otherwise.

On 17.12.2023 at 3:13 PM, Anon212 said:

The conceptual overlay is so profound and so powerful that progressive deconstruction, doing yoga, psychedelics, deep contemplation is absolutely necessary.

The conceptual overlay is precisely the opposite. It's a single one claiming there are many insanley complex nested conceptual overlays to pierce through. Or whatever "meta-one" you belief in right after this one doesn't fool you anymore. It's holograms all the way down - but actually just a single one, which cannot be called anything.

On 17.12.2023 at 3:13 PM, Anon212 said:

Anyways, this is the most important question: all the stuff you say is nice and all but are you HONEST TO GOD, free right NOW? Because I am not.  Be BRUTALLY HONEST! If you are genuinely free, good for you, if not the deception is extraordinarily subtle. I think that non-duality is both useful and powerful but at the same time extraordinarily deceptive ESPECIALLY for newbies. IF non-duality results in the pretense that one is enlightened which it often does - then it is not good.

No, "I" am of course not free as the character behind Exystem right now. I desire to not desire stuff, I wish lots of things to be different, I resist certain changes that I actually consider good, and all of that I don't know why it unfolds that way and why it is so in the first place, I don't have a memory about consciously willing it into being right now and sometimes an impulse arises to urgently change certain things without it asking me whether this impulse is allowed to arise or not. I am a puppet in that sense. This body is a robot, this mind is an AI.
But whatever is here and now, this unconditional aliveness, the unspeakable, call it whatever you want - this boundless infinite mystery that imagines all boundarys, limits, explanations and stories - how could it ever not be free? That which has no context can never be imprisoned. And that's more or less obvious to the character/story here. But more or less is part of the everchanging story again. So it's soooo right now, that every referring to "how it is for ME" is a looping back in time trying to grasp the ungraspable, it becomes a story again. It would be a reference to a thought about the past. This infinite isness is only now and here it is free of all stories/bonds. YOU are free now, and you won't get here neither through spiritual concepts nor through spiritual practices deconstructing concepts. If they help, it's good. If nothing helps, it's peace. About me: I can just say I feel continously better and more free from year to year in general (for the last 10 years maybe), with ups and downs of course. It feels like I am in love with life. But I guess in the story it could get fucked up easily within seconds even - for the "rest of my life". You could get kidnapped and tortured for the next 10 years, you could get locked-in-syndrome with chronic pain. That doesn't "feel free" of course. But believing there are people  who are EXISTENTIALLY more free than others is kind of an extra bondage in my eyes. We're programmed characters in the same improvised movie.

[Exystem]

I probably said more than what's needed to be said about this topic already. It actually needs no (further) discussion - everything seems like a repetition to me at that point. I wanted to "fullfill my obligation" to answer to you, since I love people arguing and participating in discurse about essential stuff, but on the other side it's kind of pointless and it can become the same hamster wheel as everything else. But keep going! Since I was ten years old, I really began to think about existence. In the first few years I couldn't sleep for hours because I was notoriously philosophizing. Then I realized it was all mental masturbation, circle jirking. Every philosophy/Weltanschauung consists of words, and a word is made of words, it's an empire of words. If you take one card away, the whole house of words callapses. Empty words all the way down. Think about: what is a thought? What is a word? Is it possible without words?

Every philosophy/Weltanschauung needs at least one singular premise. And most of the times it tries to reason why this premise was true in the first place. The most serious philosophers get lost in their own trickery - that it's all a giant circular reasoning. The made this circle of their reasoning so big that they can buy into the illusiom that it's actually a straight, contingent, linear line of logic but they are actually constantly talking in circles. So they become the blind leading the blind. You can easily see through this trick in religion, more difficult in philosophy and in spirituality you get trapped again theirafter. After the realisation "I know that I don't know (anything at all)" triggered by socrates, the house of philosophy collapsed. After the investigation " are there two "I"s or only one? Am I the one who knows or the one who not knows? Is there even one "I" and what is it? Can I even ever know what I am? ", triggered by self-inquiry, psychedelics etc., the house of spirituality started to crack.

In the end, nothing is responsible or causal for the final brick to fall away since that is a story, again. There has never been a brick to begin with, it's tricks not bricks all the way down. So I have nothing to say about what you should do or not do, since houses of words rising and falling happens on its own. I enjoyed the crazy trip of deconstruction within philsophy and spirituality so far, I love breaking down houses of words by building new ones. It's a fun game, so why not?

But I guess this thread is worn out.

If you have questions or comments, you can also write me privately - but it may take some time to answer since sometimes I am not active here for long periods of time.

Have fun guys, love ya all

[Razard86]

People make this so complicated. Are you aware that the people around you are you? If you have a pet are you aware that it's you?

Are you aware that everything is both alive and dead at the same time?

These are examples of the collapse of the normal distinctions in duality. The funny thing is there are traps. Different teachers unwittingly create traps, can you find out what they are?

[Davino]

I do this for it's own sake

No need to reach anywhere

I'm already at the place I wanna be

Just get peace and contentment, if you miss that facet you will run as a chicken without head, never fully satisfied with existence itself

I am, what else do I need? what else can be given to me or taken out of me? It's just a play

And I love to play!