I finally deciphered the idea of 'creepiness'.

[Consept]

Being creepy is when you have some ulterior motive or at least you seem like you do, for lots of pushy sales people can give off a 'creepy vibe' because you feel like they are preying on you and trying to get you to buy something you don't want. 

For women this is heightened, mainly because the stakes are much higher, if they trust someone that they shouldn't trust they could get raped, abused, killed anything especially given the size and strength difference between most men and women. So it's understandable if they reject a few innocent but socially uncalibrated guys to be on the safe side. 

A good comparison is, in colombia there's a real problem of local women, meeting foreign (gringo) men, going back to their place, drugging and then robbing them. This is extra dangerous as sometimes the drug they put in their drink is too much and can cause an od and has killed men. Now in this circumstance it would make sense for men to be more aware of the signs of a woman that might do this, in which case the man might reject an innocent woman because she makes them feel uncomfortable or it 'feels' as though she has an ulterior motive. 

If you feel like this in this situation it's because there is a potential risk and so it's completely rational to listen to your feelings even if your feelings are wrong. You cant then put this on the gringo guys that they shouldn't listen to their feelings, I know I definitely would be listening to any negative feelings I got in those situations. 

Anyway here's some cringey pics up 

 

[mr_engineer]

48 minutes ago, Consept said:

Being creepy is when you have some ulterior motive or at least you seem like you do, for lots of pushy sales people can give off a 'creepy vibe' because you feel like they are preying on you and trying to get you to buy something you don't want. 

Having an ulterior motive is a very normal and common thing. You smile at others to get them to smile back at you, you ask them how they're doing to get them to ask you how you're doing. But, we don't use the word 'creepy' in those cases, oh no! It's only when you break a social-norm. That's 'creepy'. 

48 minutes ago, Consept said:

For women this is heightened, mainly because the stakes are much higher, if they trust someone that they shouldn't trust they could get raped, abused, killed anything especially given the size and strength difference between most men and women. So it's understandable if they reject a few innocent but socially uncalibrated guys to be on the safe side. 

Women trust a lot of men they shouldn't trust and they never get a 'creepy vibe' from those guys. It's only the so-called 'uncalibrated guys' or men who just trigger something in them, who 'give off a creepy vibe'. There's something about you that they don't personally like, basically. 

48 minutes ago, Consept said:

A good comparison is, in colombia there's a real problem of local women, meeting foreign (gringo) men, going back to their place, drugging and then robbing them. This is extra dangerous as sometimes the drug they put in their drink is too much and can cause an od and has killed men. Now in this circumstance it would make sense for men to be more aware of the signs of a woman that might do this, in which case the man might reject an innocent woman because she makes them feel uncomfortable or it 'feels' as though she has an ulterior motive. 

There is a solution to this problem. You develop a protocol for dealing with strange women you're drinking with. You pay attention to your drink, you carry it with you everywhere. Just like, the solution to the problem of an 'uncalibrated guy' is to try to figure out what he wants and to use your words to communicate properly with him. 

48 minutes ago, Consept said:

If you feel like this in this situation it's because there is a potential risk and so it's completely rational to listen to your feelings even if your feelings are wrong. You cant then put this on the gringo guys that they shouldn't listen to their feelings, I know I definitely would be listening to any negative feelings I got in those situations. 

Your feelings can give you the wrong message, actually. You will get a biased interpretation of some person or situation based on your own personal likes and dislikes/your personal conditioning. 

You have to rely on actual facts, actual data about the other person. And, you have to protect your drink and not leave it around. 

Edited December 17, 2023 by mr_engineer

[Emotionalmosquito]

30 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

Your feelings can give you the wrong message, actually. You will get a biased interpretation of some person or situation based on your own personal likes and dislikes/your personal conditioning. 

Exactly right. That’s why it’s not always a good idea to go with your gut instinct because even that can be wrong and even manipulated against you.

30 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

Women trust a lot of men they shouldn't trust and they never get a 'creepy vibe' from those guys. It's only the so-called 'uncalibrated guys' or men who just trigger something in them, who 'give off a creepy vibe'. There's something about you that they don't personally like, basically. 

That’s what I’ve been saying. Then those women use that ick feeling that you’re giving them by just being uncalibrated to shame and get u in trouble with no consideration at all for your side. I’m pretty sure creep shaming is just a very convenient benefit of female privilege by which they abuse in a socially acceptable way guys they simply don’t like, very little to do with actually feeling threatened for their lives. 

1 hour ago, Consept said:

For women this is heightened, mainly because the stakes are much higher, if they trust someone that they shouldn't trust they could get raped, abused, killed anything especially given the size and strength difference between most men and women. So it's understandable if they reject a few innocent but socially uncalibrated guys to be on the safe side. 

Then why are they so so so sooooo bad about not getting tied up with horribly toxic and downright dangerous men? They act like the ones they don’t personally vibe with or are ugly or act uncalibrated are the dangerous ones. That’s not the case 9.9/10 times and they’re only using that horse shit victim mentality to gain power and control over us. I’m sorry but the man who fucks you senseless while you’re fully conscious and with your arms and legs dismembered is not the awkward dork who didn’t know how to read body language. It’s the one who knows women so well he says everything the girl wants to hear, does everything perfectly to not make himself look creepy, passes all the shit tests and has irresistible charm.

What women have is a beta detector. A very very accurate and well working one. When that sounds off they use it to tell people they feel threatened by you instead of just unattracted as a way to get cops or security to remove you from the area so they don’t have to have the eye sore. Am I not being very fair here? Then why are they so notoriously bad at picking guys who are good for them?

[Consept]

48 minutes ago, Emotionalmosquito said:

What women have is a beta detector. A very very accurate and well working one. When that sounds off they use it to tell people they feel threatened by you instead of just unattracted as a way to get cops or security to remove you from the area so they don’t have to have the eye sore. Am I not being very fair here? Then why are they so notoriously bad at picking guys who are good for them?

They have a beta detector but they don't necessarily act threatened around 'betas'. In this instance betas basically means someone they're not attracted to, its more when a man beta or otherwise acts in a strange uncalibrated way that they then will react negatively. Women don't tend to act aggressively to the extremes you mentioned even in uncomfortable situations, I've known women to even give out their number or a fake number to deescalate the situation. 

There are some women who act offended when certain guys talk to them but these are usually insecure women. Generally rejections are never that bad, it's normally, I've got a boyfriend, I'm not interested etc. Unless the guy is overly persistent. 

48 minutes ago, Emotionalmosquito said:

Then why are they so so so sooooo bad about not getting tied up with horribly toxic and downright dangerous men?

Yeah this happens all the time, but the key is that the guy doesn't act toxic or dangerous before he emotionally ties her in. Essentially the man is scamming her, scams happen all the time, the woman really wants a certain type of guy, toxic guy acts like that, woman falls in love, toxic guy acts toxic. 

If you get scammed out of money by a business partner all you can do initially is use your best judgement, if the business partner is doing all the right things to gain your trust and then runs away with all the money there's not much you can do apart from have stronger boundaries next time, you might even go over the top with them. 

1 hour ago, mr_engineer said:

There is a solution to this problem. You develop a protocol for dealing with strange women you're drinking with. You pay attention to your drink, you carry it with you everywhere. Just like, the solution to the problem of an 'uncalibrated guy' is to try to figure out what he wants and to use your words to communicate properly with him. 

Exactly you develop a protocol for dealing with strange women, the same way women develop a protocol fir dealing with strange men. You as a man might not like that but it's not your safety in jeopardy. Same way it's not for people to tell men in colombia trying to stay safe that they should talk to more random women and communicate with them so they don't feel bad about being rejected. People are gonna do what they feel they need to do. 

 

1 hour ago, mr_engineer said:

You have to rely on actual facts, actual data about the other person. And, you have to protect your drink and not leave it around. 

You can't rely on facts because you may not and probably wont have any facts about a random person. If a strange guy goes up to a woman and is acting a bit weird and uncalibrated she doesn't have time to get his whole history and work out if her feelings are true, this is not how it works or even can work. Same way if a girl approaches you in colombia and you suspect she wants to drug and rob you, even she doesn't, you are much better off going with your feeling, because it only takes you being wrong once and you could be dead. 

I would also argue that unless you've approached or in general have talked to a lot of women, you are just going by a feeling that all women are going to shame or act negatively toward uncalibrated guys, but this is just a feeling and in this case you should gather real world experience and report back 

Here's an example of women reacting 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Consept

[mr_engineer]

13 minutes ago, Consept said:

Exactly you develop a protocol for dealing with strange women, the same way women develop a protocol fir dealing with strange men. You as a man might not like that but it's not your safety in jeopardy. Same way it's not for people to tell men in colombia trying to stay safe that they should talk to more random women and communicate with them so they don't feel bad about being rejected. People are gonna do what they feel they need to do. 

Notice that my protocol didn't involve 'call the police on every woman who wants to drink with you. They may not like that, but it's our safety, so...'. 

14 minutes ago, Consept said:

You can't rely on facts because you may not and probably wont have any facts about a random person. If a strange guy goes up to a woman and is acting a bit weird and uncalibrated she doesn't have time to get his whole history and work out if her feelings are true, this is not how it works or even can work. Same way if a girl approaches you in colombia and you suspect she wants to drug and rob you, even she doesn't, you are much better off going with your feeling, because it only takes you being wrong once and you could be dead. 

Yupp. Let your fear rule you when you talk to any stranger. Got it. 

[mr_engineer]

It is a big red-flag when someone uses the word 'creepy' unironically. It shows that they're ruled by their emotions and they make decisions based on feelings, instead of facts. 

[Consept]

21 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

Notice that my protocol didn't involve 'call the police on every woman who wants to drink with you. They may not like that, but it's our safety, so...'. 

As I said women rarely call the police or escalate things in that way, its literally only if the guy is being dangerous, check the video I posted and all the videos on that channel 100s of approaches and not once were the police called. It seems like if you're not taking this mountain of literal evidence into account then you maybe have come to your conclusions on feelings rather than facts. 

 

[mr_engineer]

9 minutes ago, Consept said:

As I said women rarely call the police or escalate things in that way, its literally only if the guy is being dangerous, check the video I posted and all the videos on that channel 100s of approaches and not once were the police called. It seems like if you're not taking this mountain of literal evidence into account then you maybe have come to your conclusions on feelings rather than facts. 

 

So, you're a 'believe all women' kind of person? 

I talked about the 'mob of simps' who would be thrashing a guy who a woman did call a 'creep' in public. You would be a part of that mob of simps, wouldn't you?! 

[Consept]

10 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

So, you're a 'believe all women' kind of person? 

I talked about the 'mob of simps' who would be thrashing a guy who a woman did call a 'creep' in public. You would be a part of that mob of simps, wouldn't you?! 

This is a bad faith, ad hominom argument. Youre attempting to attack me rather than my argument. 

My argument is simple, but ill break it down for you, you made the claim that women are likely to call the police on men who they consider 'creepy' that approach them. I'm offering evidence to contrary which literally shows video proof of mostly socially, uncalibrated guys approaching women with no police being called and I'm asking if this changes your argument. 

You also suggested that you are someone who listens to facts and evidence over your feelings, however it doesn't look like you are taking the evidence I've presented into consideration, which sounds like a contradiction.  

Of course you are free to feel and believe whatever you want regardless of the evidence but it doesn't make it true.

[mr_engineer]

5 minutes ago, Consept said:

This is a bad faith, ad hominom argument. Youre attempting to attack me rather than my argument. 

My argument is simple, but ill break it down for you, you made the claim that women are likely to call the police on men who they consider 'creepy' that approach them. I'm offering evidence to contrary which literally shows video proof of mostly socially, uncalibrated guys approaching women with no police being called and I'm asking if this changes your argument. 

Did the women point at the men and yell 'CREEP!!' at them? I don't think so. 

Have that happen. Then see what happens. 

I don't care what the woman's opinion is, I care about what happens when she voices it. 

7 minutes ago, Consept said:

You also suggested that you are someone who listens to facts and evidence over your feelings, however it doesn't look like you are taking the evidence I've presented into consideration, which sounds like a contradiction.  

Of course you are free to feel and believe whatever you want regardless of the evidence but it doesn't make it true.

This is not 'evidence'. If they're feeling discomfort and they're dealing with it in their own way, they're good, civilized women. However, when you're cold-approaching a woman, you don't know this about them. They could very well be insane loons and, in fact, raise an alarm/call the police on you. Do you support that or not? That's the real question. 

[numbersinarow]

"I can't platonically interact with women and type excessively without someone projecting sexual intent on what I typed and harassing me over it."

"You seem biased against women."

[Consept]

16 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

This is not 'evidence'. If they're feeling discomfort and they're dealing with it in their own way, they're good, civilized women. However, when you're cold-approaching a woman, you don't know this about them. They could very well be insane loons and, in fact, raise an alarm/call the police on you. Do you support that or not? That's the real question.

Do I support insane people wrongfully calling the police? No obviously if they're insane they probably need help. 

What I'm talking about is the majority, sane women who don't call the police as evidenced in the video. 

Feeling fear when you cold approach is natural as its out of most people's comfort zones and when we have fear we likely think of a worst case scenario, like the woman calling the police. However fear is a feeling and not necessarily real, as you've pointed out fear shouldn't rule you. So to challenge that fear it might be worth approaching to find out. If you don't want to do that I have presented 100s of guys, mostly socially uncalibrated who approached women and did not have this worst fear happen. 

What you're actually doing is making an argument for an irrational fear that I'd not actually based in real world evidence. 

 

[mr_engineer]

@Consept First things first, 'creep' is a very widely-used term by women to describe guys. 

Secondly, in your videos, if they're not using the word 'creep', how do you know that that's their opinion of the guys? You know that, if they point at the guy and say 'creep'. 

If they look uncomfortable, who's to say that it's the guys making them uncomfortable? Maybe they're uncomfortable for their own reasons. And, if they're not calling the guys 'creepy' (which is a blaming-word for discomfort), they're not even implying that the guys are responsible for the discomfort. 

And finally, why does 'being calibrated' have to revolve around women's comfort-levels?! I could very well not give a damn about women's comfort-levels around me. Does that make me a criminal?! 

[Consept]

2 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

First things first, 'creep' is a very widely-used term by women to describe guys. 

Secondly, in your videos, if they're not using the word 'creep', how do you know that that's their opinion of the guys? You know that, if they point at the guy and say 'creep'. 

Youd have to show me some kind of evidence of women pointing at guys that approach them and calling them creeps, otherwise i dont know what we're talking about or how to prove your feelings about this. Most women will not call a guy a creep directly they will use it or similar to describe a guy who was acting in an uncalibrated way and usually when it seemed they were just interested in the girl for sex. I hear it sometimes from girls ive been with and theyll show me messages of guys sending them messages or tell me stories about a guy that approached them. They dont say every guy is creepy or not every guy comes accross as creepy but there are some that are very inappropriate and still persist even though theyve been told that she isnt interested, which is very socially uncalibrated. Of course if you really push her boundaries they may call you a creep directly, but in my experience of seeing/hearing about it, most women try several reasonable ways of getting them to back off before they resort to something like that, the guy would really not know how to take a hint and would need to calibrate before approaching anyone. 

This is no different than say sales people, if someone was trying to sell you something on the street and wouldnt take no for an answer, there would be a point where you might get a little aggressive and tell them to back off. 

12 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

And finally, why does 'being calibrated' have to revolve around women's comfort-levels?! I could very well not give a damn about women's comfort-levels around me. Does that make me a criminal?! 

As I said its not really gender specific, in terms of communication the 2 people have to feel comfortable talking to each other, if one doesnt for whatever reason they definitely have a right to cut that conversation asap. It doesnt make you a criminal that you dont care about womens comfort level but obviously women will not want to communicate with you if you make them feel uncomfortable. Its like a sales person saying 'I dont care about the people i sell to's comfort-level around me'. Then when no one wants to buy whatever theyre selling, blaming it on the people. If the sales person wants to actually sell and making people uncomfortable is his problem, he needs to work on that himself. If hes like 'im not changing for anyone', hes absolutely free to do that but hes probably not going to sell anything. 

 

 

[mr_engineer]

17 minutes ago, Consept said:

Youd have to show me some kind of evidence of women pointing at guys that approach them and calling them creeps, otherwise i dont know what we're talking about or how to prove your feelings about this.

Google 'gym creep videos'. There are a lot of reasonable people calling out women trying to film and frame guys who were being normal, for being 'gym creeps'. For example: 

Before you tell me 'they're internet anomalies', you're the one talking in terms of videos here. I could've said the same thing about the videos you shared. 

17 minutes ago, Consept said:

Most women will not call a guy a creep directly they will use it or similar to describe a guy who was acting in an uncalibrated way and usually when it seemed they were just interested in the girl for sex. I hear it sometimes from girls ive been with and theyll show me messages of guys sending them messages or tell me stories about a guy that approached them. They dont say every guy is creepy or not every guy comes accross as creepy but there are some that are very inappropriate and still persist even though theyve been told that she isnt interested, which is very socially uncalibrated. Of course if you really push her boundaries they may call you a creep directly, but in my experience of seeing/hearing about it, most women try several reasonable ways of getting them to back off before they resort to something like that, the guy would really not know how to take a hint and would need to calibrate before approaching anyone. 

This is no different than say sales people, if someone was trying to sell you something on the street and wouldnt take no for an answer, there would be a point where you might get a little aggressive and tell them to back off. 

No harm, no foul. There is no reason to see yourself as a 'creep' if they're not using that word to describe you. 

17 minutes ago, Consept said:

As I said its not really gender specific, in terms of communication the 2 people have to feel comfortable talking to each other, if one doesnt for whatever reason they definitely have a right to cut that conversation asap. It doesnt make you a criminal that you dont care about womens comfort level but obviously women will not want to communicate with you if you make them feel uncomfortable. Its like a sales person saying 'I dont care about the people i sell to's comfort-level around me'. Then when no one wants to buy whatever theyre selling, blaming it on the people. If the sales person wants to actually sell and making people uncomfortable is his problem, he needs to work on that himself. If hes like 'im not changing for anyone', hes absolutely free to do that but hes probably not going to sell anything. 

Are your comfort-levels your responsibility or not, socially? 

On the one hand, we talk about how 'the solution to social-anxiety is to get more comfortable being social', on the other hand, we try to take responsibility for other people's comfort-levels and we become 'creeps' if we don't. What's up with that? Which way is it? 

Edited December 17, 2023 by mr_engineer

[Consept]

9 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

Before you tell me 'they're internet anomalies', you're the one talking in terms of videos here. I could've said the same thing about the videos you shared. 

The video i presented was real life interactions, similar to how it would be if anyone approached women. The gym creep videos is done specifically to get views by women in which they basically set up guys to look at them and call them creeps for their followers, in real life this doesnt happen. Also these women would fall in the insane category you mentioned, no one takes them seriously specifically because they are not presenting real life. Ive been to the gym consistently for years and I rarely see people filming themselves in this way. I have seen guys filming girls without their consent though, although only once or twice, even then the girl didnt outright call the guy a creep she just avoided him. 

15 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

Are your comfort-levels your responsibility or not, socially? 

On the one hand, we talk about how 'the solution to social-anxiety is to get more comfortable being social', on the other hand, we try to take responsibility for other people's comfort-levels and we become 'creeps' if we don't. What's up with that? Which way is it? 

Its both, so if youre socially anxious, youre in your head and not thinking about the other person, the solution is to get out and become more social as a kind of exposure method. Part of being 'good' socially is taking how other people feel into account, thats the whole thing. Its not that people have to do this or that its your responsibility to make people feel comfrtable, this is only if you want to be good with people socially. You are free to make people feel uncomfortable or not take into account that something youre doing is making people feel uncomfortable, but people dont like feeling uncomfortable and if they do and you are the cause of that then obviously they wont want to be around you.

Essentially you have to pick whether you want to not give a fuck about how people feel around you, in which case some will feel uncomfortable depending on how uncomfortable you make people feel. Or whether you want to connect with people socially and possibly romantically in which case you will have to foster a relationship where you both feel comfortable. Also it may not necessarily mean no one will like you if you dont care how they feel, but definitely romantically you would need a level of comfort, theres no way around it. 

[hoodrow trillson]

On 12/15/2023 at 2:30 PM, Rafael Thundercat said:

The amazing awakening a man have about women is when realize the years he was lost on his fears, shame, not feeling at home in his own body and all the strategies in his mind and he realize he just needed to enjoy, laugth, have fun, dance, play and be natural, just a human being interacting in flow with the situation, at ease.. at home.. and boommm. So fucking easy and he was complicating so much. 

 

I mean... you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Many guys like the OP end up stuck like this forever.  You can't really help them unless they have the 'eureka' moment themselves -- they'll forever be spinning their bald summer tires in the snow until their death.  It's so simple yet, their Very Smart Brain is whats ultimately holding them back.

It's kind of funny how it sort of mirrors spirituality when it comes to enlightenment huh?  

[mr_engineer]

6 hours ago, Consept said:

The video i presented was real life interactions, similar to how it would be if anyone approached women. The gym creep videos is done specifically to get views by women in which they basically set up guys to look at them and call them creeps for their followers, in real life this doesnt happen. Also these women would fall in the insane category you mentioned, no one takes them seriously specifically because they are not presenting real life. Ive been to the gym consistently for years and I rarely see people filming themselves in this way. I have seen guys filming girls without their consent though, although only once or twice, even then the girl didnt outright call the guy a creep she just avoided him. 

You think people don't get influenced by the gym creep videos? You think that women don't talk amongst each other and give each other shitty advice about how to deal with guys who approach them? 

It takes an incredibly smart woman to be open to being cold-approached these days. Because there's a lot of anti-pickup propaganda in female circles, talking about how 'inappropriate' and 'creepy' it is. You have to not fall for that, you have to own your desire to be approached, then you have to figure out how to use your words to figure out who's actually dangerous vs who's safe. 

6 hours ago, Consept said:

Essentially you have to pick whether you want to not give a fuck about how people feel around you, in which case some will feel uncomfortable depending on how uncomfortable you make people feel. Or whether you want to connect with people socially and possibly romantically in which case you will have to foster a relationship where you both feel comfortable. Also it may not necessarily mean no one will like you if you dont care how they feel, but definitely romantically you would need a level of comfort, theres no way around it. 

You think I'd want to romantically associate with someone who would not want to push their comfort-zone and who would resort to defamatory language when you push it?! No way. 

Also, you can't claim that women legitimately like serial killers and drug dealers on my thread about nice guys and then come here and talk about 'comfort levels'. Women actually do like guys who push their comfort-zone. All of this creepy-talk really is bullshit. 

Edited December 18, 2023 by mr_engineer

[Consept]

7 hours ago, hoodrow trillson said:

I mean... you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Many guys like the OP end up stuck like this forever.  You can't really help them unless they have the 'eureka' moment themselves -- they'll forever be spinning their bald summer tires in the snow until their death.  It's so simple yet, their Very Smart Brain is whats ultimately holding them back.

It's kind of funny how it sort of mirrors spirituality when it comes to enlightenment huh?  

Yeah this basically, in a way its sad because its such an obvious sticking point to others but theres literally noting you can say to make the horse drink. It's like you can see the whole defense mechanism in play. 

 

 

[mr_engineer]

14 minutes ago, Consept said:

Yeah this basically, in a way its sad because its such an obvious sticking point to others but theres literally noting you can say to make the horse drink. It's like you can see the whole defense mechanism in play. 

 

 

7 hours ago, hoodrow trillson said:

I mean... you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Many guys like the OP end up stuck like this forever.  You can't really help them unless they have the 'eureka' moment themselves -- they'll forever be spinning their bald summer tires in the snow until their death.  It's so simple yet, their Very Smart Brain is whats ultimately holding them back.

It's kind of funny how it sort of mirrors spirituality when it comes to enlightenment huh?  

I would rather guys like yourselves who keep saying contradictory stuff try not to set dating-rules for others and try not to get into women's heads and read their minds about what's 'comfortable' or not about them. It's very simpy.