Why Communes are a Failed Form of Governance

[Ero]

This illuminating NY article tells the story of "Christiania", a 50-year old Danish anarchist commune that is currently shutting down due to failure of handling organized crime groups that have lead to surge in violence. “The mafia doesn’t listen to anybody” is a quote of one of the long-time residents. It is a perfect example of a clash between the green and red spiral stages - the former approaches issues with "acceptance" and "kindness" that is then perceived as weakness and exploited by the ruthless conduct of an organized crime group.

As someone who comes from a country riddled with violence from "mafia"-style organized crime groups, I have grown directly aware of the non-trivial and highly complex nature of ensuring safety and freedom for a group of people. It is not a given, nor a guarantee. Libertarian and anarcho-utopian philosophies/ form of governance will fundamentally fail due to its naive model of people and social systems. What is to stop non-state actors, such as drug cartels and neo-liberal corporations from extracting all value at the expense of your and your family's life and well-being? A strong government. Something that I have realized in the last 2.5 years of living in the US is taken for granted. 

[Danioover9000]

@Ero

1 minute ago, Ero said:

This illuminating NY article tells the story of "Christiania", a 50-year old Danish anarchist commune that is currently shutting down due to failure of handling organized crime groups that have lead to surge in violence. “The mafia doesn’t listen to anybody” is a quote of one of the long-time residents. It is a perfect example of a clash between the green and red spiral stages - the former approaches issues with "acceptance" and "kindness" that is then perceived as weakness and exploited by the ruthless conduct of an organized crime group.

As someone who comes from a country riddled with violence from "mafia"-style organized crime groups, I have grown directly aware of the non-trivial and highly complex nature of ensuring safety and freedom for a group of people. It is not a given, nor a guarantee. Libertarian and anarcho-utopian philosophies/ form of governance will fundamentally fail due to its naive model of people and social systems. What is to stop non-state actors, such as drug cartels and neo-liberal corporations from extracting all value at the expense of your and your family's life and well-being? A strong government. Something that I have realized in the last 2.5 years of living in the US is taken for granted. 

   Good post.

[Leo Gura]

Good

[Husseinisdoingfine]

This is the ultimate tragedy of GREEN kindness and acceptance, which is that they expand their acceptance and kindness too far to all of the degenerate hooligan elements of the society (in other words, RED).

GREEN needs to implement a smarter version of compassion,which does not accept RED as it acknowledges how dangerous RED is. But GREEN will never do that because that's  """discriminatory""". RED promptly exploits this for its own selfish purposes.

[PurpleTree]

I can’t read the article 

where are the crime groups and mafia mostly from?

 

[Danioover9000]

@Husseinisdoingfine

34 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

This is the ultimate tragedy of GREEN kindness and acceptance, which is that they expand their acceptance and kindness too far to all of the degenerate hooligan elements of the society (in other words, RED).

GREEN needs to implement a smarter version of compassion,which does not accept RED as it acknowledges how dangerous RED is. But GREEN will never do that because that's  """discriminatory""". RED promptly exploits this for its own selfish purposes.

   GREENs can't even make a distinction between transgenderism as an ideology, and Transgenderism as a gender dysphoria. We don't even know in what ratio are children or other adults born and suffer with gender dysphoria versus indoctrinated by peers and others to believe in transgenderism, from some schools to mostly the internet cultures. So how can GREEN integrate some BLUE and ORANGE elements to counter RED,  when GREENs are busy antagonizing onto ORANGE and BLUE?

[Girzo]

Such communes need strong "local government", that would look a little bit like Blue. That is everyone needs a weapon, there's a need for solidarity, and a common value/moral system that is agreed upon before entering the zone. Some council of elders that thinks strategically about commune should also hold some power. The power to kick people out is essential.

What I am saying that any Green political endeavour that throws these Blue achievements to a bin instead of building upon them is destined to fail.

In reality, unless it's a social system located in a remote self-sufficient place in terms of resources, it should also build upon achievements of Orange and work within the bounds set by country's law, not be illegal, because the country's government is what guarantees access to energy and food from the global market. It's unwise to bite a hand that feeds you.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Girzo

[Basman]

Quote

On 26 August 2023, two masked gunmen opened fire in Christiania, killing a 30-year old man and injuring 4 other people.[48][49] According to the police, the shooting is related to a conflict between gangs.[50] After the shooting, the residents reiterated their inablity to throw the gangs off the street without help.[50]

Due to the worsening gang violence, residents are strongly considering a proposition by the Danish government to buy the rest of the land with the proviso that they accommodate 15,000 square meters public housing development. This agreement would provide Christiania residents with help curbing the violence and the city with needed housing.[51]

-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania

 

[Basman]

It seems like communes like these have a shelf life of about 30-50 years before their lack of structure ends up becoming too dysfunctional.

It is a shame to see Christiania change because I can imagine there being a real sense of community for the inhabitants as they came together to run the place. That will be lessened with an influx of new people and more governmental control if they accept the deal.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Basman

[PurpleTree]

9 hours ago, Basman said:

It seems like communes like these have a shelf life of about 30-50 years before their lack of structure ends up becoming too dysfunctional.

It is a shame to see Christiania change because I can imagine there being a real sense of community for the inhabitants as they came together to run the place. That will be lessened with an influx of new people and more governmental control if they accept the deal.

Yea probably mostly because of migration/refugees unfortunately 

[TheAlchemist]

These communes would require some form of centralized power or ability to use force to keep bad actors in check. But of course, a egalitarian and pacifist community is extremely allergic to such things, and for good reason. I think careful experimentation is needed with that, maybe some novel way of managing power can be discovered that isn't just a bringing back of old systems. But of course, such experiments could be quite dangerous as we have seen with all the cults... 

Edited December 8, 2023 by TheAlchemist

[Basman]

41 minutes ago, TheAlchemist said:

These communes would require some form of centralized power or ability to use force to keep bad actors in check. But of course, a egalitarian and pacifist community is extremely allergic to such things, and for good reason. I think careful experimentation is needed with that, maybe some novel way of managing power can be discovered that isn't just a bringing back of old systems. But of course, such experiments could be quite dangerous as we have seen with all the cults... 

I think the problem with anarchist communes or whatever you want to call them is that they aren't very scalable. The more the population exceeds the size of a typical tribe (100-150 members), the more structure you need to keep bad actors in check and to get things done.

The fact that the predominant form of government today after thousands of years of human history consist of centralized authority with rules and regulations as opposed to anarchy hints at it being more effective at the scale of population we are at.

[gettoefl]

speak love

but always carry a big stick

to channel a famous WW2 politician

[MuadDib]

@Ero

The Lannisters send their regards

 

[Ero]

23 hours ago, MuadDib said:

@Ero

The Lannisters send their regards

 

Cute

U clearly have a lot of free time

[MuadDib]

@Ero Not as much as some people, I'm afraid. Welcome back. (: