I am in literal hell

[Sincerity]

2 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

The way it works for me is just something completely different 

Good luck to You still. I'm rooting for You. 

[Sugarcoat]

1 minute ago, Sincerity said:

Good luck to You still. I'm rooting for You. 

Tnx although I just can’t imagine it

[Carl-Richard]

25 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

Thanks for your kindness I really wish it was like that. In the beginning when I didn’t yet understand what it was about I did this very very light exercise that was so light I could do it for over 10 hours straight. I did it several evenings in a row, and it didn’t do anything except very minimum short lasting effect afterwards. 

I see, but there is something very special about this technique I'm talking about. You do it at any place, any time, all the time. It's a very subtle tightening of the left side of the abdomen. It's not supposed to hurt, although it could actually help to do it until it hurts in the beginning to test out how it feels and to calibrate a suitable level of tension. You want to find the place that gives the desired effect without too much side effects and keep it like that all the time. Just try it. If things really are as bleak as you say they are, then what do you have to lose?

As for other alternatives, in a sense, I'm giving you the "blue pill", as the simplest path is acceptance and surrender, but as you say, that seems impossible for you now, so it's of course not that simple. However, you could also benefit from seeing a spiritual teacher (preferably one who specializes in unwanted spiritual emergencies, if that is a thing) who can help facilitate the process of surrender, helping you to swallow the "red pill". Or you could try conventional mental health approaches (although be careful to find somebody who actually understands your issues). There are many options.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[UnbornTao]

1 hour ago, Sugarcoat said:

I understand someone would think that which is fine to me, doesn’t affect what I’m going through at all. Everything I said is me trying to describe it to the tea. I wish I was not born into this body mind . In this moment I have this weak sense of self so I’m able to write this without being 100% gone but I know it will dissipate soon

What is weak about it? Who would be gone? Who knows what will dissipate? What is that about, and how do you know?

[Sugarcoat]

7 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I see, but there is something very special about this technique I'm talking about. You do it at any place, any time, all the time. It's a very subtle tightening of the left side of the abdomen. It's not supposed to hurt, although it could actually help to do it until it hurts in the beginning to test out how it feels and to calibrate a suitable level of tension. You want to find the place that gives the desired effect without too much side effects and keep it like that all the time. Just try it. If things truly are as bleak as you say they are, then what do you have to lose by trying it?

As for other alternatives, in a sense, I'm giving you the "blue pill", as the simplest path is acceptance and surrender, but as you say, that seems impossible for you now, so it's of course not that simple. However, you could also benefit from seeing a spiritual teacher (preferably one who specializes in unwanted spiritual emergencies, if that is a thing) who can help facilitate the process of surrender, helping you to swallow the "red pill". Or you could try conventional mental health interventions (although be careful to find somebody who actually understands your issues). There are many options.

I know I sound unreachable and it is because I truly am.
 

My mind knows and it always knows…took weeks to figure it out what this is all about

in this very moment as I said I have a little sense of self that is like this baseline I am resting on so I’m fine in this moment but I know it will slip down soon

As I said with the surrender thing. As sense of self weakens I don’t experience myself as in control with choice. Like something in me understands what’s going on and it is driving my actions towards what I need, until it gets too painful and I stop , and the cycle continues 

this weekend I was in denial and didn’t exercise “why would I “ ,” maybe death isn’t so bad”, but then once again something takes over as sense of self weakens and sense of autonomy weakens  and drives me back in the cycle 

Like this is so deep, nothing except strong resistance makes any difference to this, everything is like “the same” at a certain baseline of self. So me talking to you right now feels only as real to the degree that my sense of self is real, which is very vague 

but thank you anyways. 

[Sugarcoat]

3 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

What is weak about it? Who would be gone? Who knows what will dissipate? What is that about, and how do you know?

No words really capture the process

 

one could say

what I am is this activity trying to maintain itself. And as the sense of a solid center starts to dissolve and reality looses it’s 3d depth and seems closer and flatter than ever, this activity is desperately trying to keep itself alive and it feels like this absolutely disgusting strings tugging in all of my being, impossible to describe. 
 

and it discovered that by pushing against resistance in physical exercise it produces  sense of self so it solidifies and this nagging activity can rest and I can rest as myself literally

but then it’s an cycle seemingly impossible to break through 

Like these past weeks have been workout, stop when it gets to hard because it hurts, a little sense of self produced, it starts to weaken again, once again something takes over and drives me to another workout, push until it hurts to much , sense of self produced , over and over and over. 
 

Seemingly impossible cycle. Sounds absolutely insane but it is very real

[Sugarcoat]

Whether sense of self is real or not is one thing. But this is the direct experience here what I’m talking about. It is the deepest possible hell I could’ve ever imagined 

[Osaid]

I still see this idea of falling into some "void" and a "sense of self" which that is happening to, and I think that is mainly where the contention is and it is probably worth investigating what is actually happening there. Sounds like some kind of botched ego death or something. If it is just an identity issue, there really is no void where the ego can fall into because the ego is really just an expendable bundle of identifications, what truly does exist will always exist no matter what, and that is what you are. The ego can't fall into a void because it is the one that is imagining a void to be scared of. The ego is the one that says "I am this" and "I am that."

Your sense of self has no existential pull or power on your current experience, it only feels that way if you react badly to it with physical symptoms like anxiety or worry or panic, that can make it seem more real and powerful than it is. It is important to realize that ego "death" or "dissolution" can come in many different "flavours", and those "flavours" are simply distortions and resistances created by the ego in order to elicit an emotional and conceptual reaction from you, perhaps in this case it is a fear of dissolving into some mysterious void. Really, just investigate what is genuinely there and keep your wits about you.

9 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

Whether sense of self is real or not is one thing. But this is the direct experience here what I’m talking about. It is the deepest possible hell I could’ve ever imagined 

The uncomfortable sensations can be very real. But what is actually creating them? Many times you imagine something and react badly to it. Don't mistake the reality of how your body reacts for the reality of what it is reacting to. A rope seen as a snake will create cortisol in the body.

[Absolute Unity]

Ketamine therapy 

[UnbornTao]

On 07/12/2023 at 11:47 PM, Sugarcoat said:

No words really capture the process

 

one could say

what I am is this activity trying to maintain itself. And as the sense of a solid center starts to dissolve and reality looses it’s 3d depth and seems closer and flatter than ever, this activity is desperately trying to keep itself alive and it feels like this absolutely disgusting strings tugging in all of my being, impossible to describe. 
 

and it discovered that by pushing against resistance in physical exercise it produces  sense of self so it solidifies and this nagging activity can rest and I can rest as myself literally

but then it’s an cycle seemingly impossible to break through 

Like these past weeks have been workout, stop when it gets to hard because it hurts, a little sense of self produced, it starts to weaken again, once again something takes over and drives me to another workout, push until it hurts to much , sense of self produced , over and over and over. 
 

Seemingly impossible cycle. Sounds absolutely insane but it is very real

You might as well be making it up, so it would appear as occurring. But this isn't useful, short of experiencing what sources the activity.

What has space got to do with it? What is "it"? "It" discovered something? What is your being and who is doing the resistance? What is the payoff you get out of acting like this?

Look into what pain is. 

I wouldn't presume it to be an insight but rather a state precipitated by a set of beliefs. Increased consciousness is always positive and freeing, so keep going in that direction.

Edited June 18 by UnbornTao

[BlueOak]

There is nothing outside of yourself.

Assuming its not a mental break, which if it continues beyond a couple of weeks I would seek advice about, for me it is describing reintegration with the collective will of everything. In the moment between being everything and being you, it can feel like you describe, as if another will exists but it's also you. I've had the opposite, what i'll call a spiritual memory I was given of splitting and why I incarnated, how I became who I am. Though there is no 'memory' when you are everything, no time, space, relative course of events, it just is. That is the best way I can describe it, Metaphors given an experience to show us something. The only important thing is what it means to you.

To re-establish identity, get very simple. As simple as you can. This is why I keep suggesting nature, water, rivers, meditation, breathing. Focus on the breath and only the breath. Make sure the diet is simple. The room is free of distractions, free of electronics. Keep a clear and simple routine. Even if it's not what I am talking about, doing that will give you the best possible space to calm the mind, so it's not going to hurt.

Edited December 8, 2023 by BlueOak

[BlueOak]

@Breakingthewall
Got any advice here? If you don't mind a tag. I know you speak about having regular spiritual experiences.

[Sugarcoat]

53 minutes ago, Osaid said:

I still see this idea of falling into some "void" and a "sense of self" which that is happening to, and I think that is mainly where the contention is and it is probably worth investigating what is actually happening there. Sounds like some kind of botched ego death or something. If it is just an identity issue, there really is no void where the ego can fall into because the ego is really just an expendable bundle of identifications, what truly does exist will always exist no matter what, and that is what you are. The ego can't fall into a void because it is the one that is imagining a void to be scared of. The ego is the one that says "I am this" and "I am that."

Your sense of self has no existential pull or power on your current experience, it only feels that way if you react badly to it with physical symptoms like anxiety or worry or panic, that can make it seem more real and powerful than it is. It is important to realize that ego "death" or "dissolution" can come in many different "flavours", and those "flavours" are simply distortions and resistances created by the ego in order to elicit an emotional and conceptual reaction from you, perhaps in this case it is a fear of dissolving into some mysterious void. Really, just investigate what is genuinely there and keep your wits about you.

The uncomfortable sensations can be very real. But what is actually creating them? Many times you imagine something and react badly to it. Don't mistake the reality of how your body reacts for the reality of what it is reacting to. A rope seen as a snake will create cortisol in the body.

the sense of self is beyond mental identifications- it’s a solid center one could say (in experience)

Mental identifications can go away but that’s not the same as this center experience. One can have a sort of “distance” to a mental ego , but that is not the same as this center experiencer which is beyond mental and which there is no distance to

if it’s absolutely real or not is one thing but that doesn’t change the direct experience which is what I’m describing here. Everything I’ve said so far is from the most genuine place . 

 

when my sense of self was at its absolute weakest - my mind was not imagining “the void” , my mind was imagining physical resistance almost every moment all day (sounds crazy but yes that’s how it works, because the mind imagines that which maintains you). To the point I’ll dream about it at night 

I don’t have fear of some imagined void- the experience of weakening of self is not something one imagines it’s directly experienced . When I say the void I’m not talking about total empty because that would mean absolute zero, it’s just a description of a weakening of sense of solid center 

 

 

theres not reaction to sense of self as the experience is that I am myself so no distance to the center when one feels like they are the center 

 

thoughts are not scary - thoughts are trying to grasp at something beyond themselves. - whatever that is can be scary or not 
 

a thought about pain isn’t scary because the thought is scary it’s the fear of the real thing that thought is pointing to. 
 

the unease in my entire being when my sense of self weakens - it’s not the body is not at ease it’s like I am this activity that is desperately trying to maintain itself and that is the unease in itself - and simultaneously unease about it being physical resistance that maintain me 

 

it doesn’t make sense at all what I’m saying which I understand it would have to be experienced directly to make sense

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by Sugarcoat

[Sugarcoat]

51 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

You might as well be making it all up, so it appears to be real. But this isn't useful short of an experiential look into what sources the activity.

Why bring up space to this?

What's "it"? It discovered something? What is your being and who is doing the resistance?

What is the payoff you get out of your doing this?

Look into what pain is. 

I wouldn't presume it to be an insight but a state precipitated by a belief system. Increased consciousness is always positive and freeing, so keep going in that direction.

I’m simply describing what I’ve been going through these last weeks. 
 

talking about it doesn’t really make any difference it’s just some desperation

I’ve had plenty of shifts in my life, “increases in consciousness “ where there is release of tension and reality seems expanded and closer, every single time it was lovely yes. But then it got to a point where it’s like the complete reverse is going on. 
 

 

I say “ it “ because when sense of self is extremely weak it doesn’t feel like you’re doing things but ofc it’s something in me/my brain 

 

this is beyond a belief system. 
resistance is beyond mental. The mind will try to grasp at resistance so it can imagine pain, but that is not the actual pain. You are beyond mental. Self can have sort of mental identifications to it but the center is beyond mental (in experience)
 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sugarcoat]

54 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

There is nothing outside of yourself.

Assuming its not a mental break, which if it continues beyond a couple of weeks I would seek advice about, for me it is describing reintegration with the collective will of everything. In the moment between being everything and being you, it can feel like you describe, as if another will exists but it's also you. I've had the opposite, what i'll call a spiritual memory I was given of splitting and why I incarnated, how I became who I am. Though there is no 'memory' when you are everything, no time, space, relative course of events, it just is. That is the best way I can describe it, Metaphors given an experience to show us something. The only important thing is what it means to you.

To re-establish identity, get very simple. As simple as you can. This is why I keep suggesting nature, water, rivers, meditation, breathing. Focus on the breath and only the breath. Make sure the diet is simple. The room is free of distractions, free of electronics. Keep a clear and simple routine. Even if it's not what I am talking about, doing that will give you the best possible space to calm the mind, so it's not going to hurt.

I’m talking about the self as in experience, then what absolute truth is I have no clue that is another thing. so this thing “you’re everything”, doesn’t affect experience 

I can say I could clearly tell it was permanent in the sense it’s not gonna build itself by itself. So it’s not like a trip where it’s this weakening of self then it comes back absolutely not. 
 

literally all my workouts have produced this tiny little center . 
 

the mental activity increases when the sense of self weakens - it’s like reverse relationship . And nothing outside changes it

 

 

[UnbornTao]

On 08/12/2023 at 1:07 AM, Sugarcoat said:

I’m simply describing what I’ve been going through these last weeks. 
 

talking about it doesn’t really make any difference it’s just some desperation

I’ve had plenty of shifts in my life, “increases in consciousness “ where there is release of tension and reality seems expanded and closer, every single time it was lovely yes. But then it got to a point where it’s like the complete reverse is going on. 
 

 

I say “ it “ because when sense of self is extremely weak it doesn’t feel like you’re doing things but ofc it’s something in me/my brain 

 

this is beyond a belief system. 
resistance is beyond mental. The mind will try to grasp at resistance so it can imagine pain, but that is not the actual pain. You are beyond mental. Self can have sort of mental identifications to it but the center is beyond mental (in experience)

You may be making stuff up in order for your victim role to be validated. You're coming from ideas that you believe in rather than from a genuine experience. Self might be conceptual in nature; we don't know.

If it's a feeling or emotional state, see it for what it is and enjoy the ride.

Edited June 18 by UnbornTao

[Sugarcoat]

1 minute ago, UnbornTao said:

Once again you're making stuff up in order to get acknowledged and for your role of a victim to be validated.

You're coming from notions and ideas that you believe in rather than from an actual experience. Self might be conceptual in nature, you don't know.

If it's a feeling or emotional state, see it for what it is and enjoy the ride.

It’s not at all like that but it’s fine because it doesn’t change my experience. 

[UnbornTao]

7 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

It’s not at all like that but it’s fine because it doesn’t change my experience. 

See? Might want to look into what payoff it gets you to keep generating that activity. A lot of it is being conceptually added on top of "experience" by you. 

Stop assuming shit.

Edited December 8, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Sugarcoat]

Just now, UnbornTao said:

See? Might want to look into what payoff it gets you to keep generating that activity. A lot of it is being conceptually added on top of "experience" by you.

As I said before now I feel somehow fine because I have some sense of self but I know it will slip soon I know it’s that cycle

concepts and mind are no problem they just describe something beyond them. The raw experience is beyond that 

[UnbornTao]

On 08/12/2023 at 1:42 AM, Sugarcoat said:

As I said before now I feel somehow fine because I have some sense of self but I know it will slip soon I know it’s that cycle

concepts and mind are no problem they just describe something beyond them. The raw experience is beyond that 

What's actually experienced?

Notions can show up for us as an experience. Even raw as a distinction might be concept. 

You seem to be afraid of losing self, so are imagining a future possibility you're unwilling to experience. You likely also hold ideals about what that's like, etc.

If one's already made up solutions and imagined causes for an activity don't work, you might as well remain open. I suggest not to fill in the blank where questioning would occur. Who knows, maybe if you relaxed, the activity would dissipate on its own. Maybe if the experience is allowed to be turned into, it'll go away organically.

The good news is that you might not be your self, and at the same time it isn't going anywhere. What you and self are is up for grabs. So breathe, be honest and contemplate.

Edited June 18 by UnbornTao