Is it justifiable to hate migrants?

[BlueOak]

Generally people's feelings on migrant reflects what the party in power wants to use them for, or can best make use of them as.
Workers to Fill Gaps, Blame, A Challenge to Solve. Image. A way to hit their political opponents. As examples.

They are essentially a ball kicked around.

At the moment with the economic downturn
Blame - Challenge to Solve - Some Image Concerns are what they are being used for politically and personally. 

As the political apparatus controls the media, they control what public perception is allowed to be broadcast, and thus what people generally are programmed by repetition to associate migrants with. *And if you want to know who runs the political apparatus, look who puts most of their finances in candidates' campaigns, or media companies.

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by BlueOak

[Leo Gura]

 

[Girzo]

7 hours ago, Nabd said:

I don't understand why Europeans allow this bullshit to happen.

Just deport people who commit crimes and in a matter of weeks all the troublemaker migrants will start to behave.

Why do you assume people in this video are migrants? They might have French citizenship. Like France is not a monolith country of one single ethnicity for a long time.

The people in the video look very young. Deviant youth does deviant acts in all countries. Like fuck, dysfunctional kids in the US take guns to school. Ask yourself what's worse.

[Schizophonia]

On 15/12/2023 at 8:01 PM, Girzo said:

Why do you assume people in this video are migrants? They might have French citizenship. Like France is not a monolith country of one single ethnicity for a long time.

The people in the video look very young. Deviant youth does deviant acts in all countries. Like fuck, dysfunctional kids in the US take guns to school. Ask yourself what's worse.

It's a problem of demographic groups, the fact that they have French nationality doesn't matter.
The vast majority of crimes committed in France are committed by French people, but non-white French people and therefore of non-European ancestry for at least a few generations.

But all these crimes do not happen to the same extent in the Maghreb country, the fact is that European countries have had stupid humanist policies which favored the massive importation of the poorest and undereducated populations of these countries.

A well-known English but French-speaking YouTuber explained that he was unable to continue his medical studies in France because the prefecture judged that he was "in too good a situation" to justify the renewal of his visa.

PS: I'm not talking about unbalanced people who lose their temper here and there, I'm talking about events that happen all the time.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Schizophonia

[Schizophonia]

10 hours ago, Nabd said:

I don't understand why Europeans allow this bullshit to happen.

Just deport people who commit crimes and in a matter of weeks all the troublemaker migrants will start to behave.

What most Euros don't understand is that lack of harsh actions against migrants will send a green light to them to commit more crimes and get away with it. 

There is a whole culture of making fun of Europeans for how "cucked" they are (both governments and people) because they are lenient.

For example you would not see such a thing in Egypt. A French woman hitting an Egyptian? or a French guy molesting a teenage girl? You better bet he will get get his teeth knocked out by anyone in the street.

Times are changing, the “extreme" right is making massive progress in Europe.
She should win in France in 2027.

[PurpleTree]

56 minutes ago, Nabd said:

This is the problem of the left because they refuse to address such things like refugees or migrants being more prone to commit crimes.

True their solution is just well we need more money for integration, it‘s the states fault. But people like vietnamese, sri lankans etc integrated well and don‘t commit much crime while people from many islamic countries cultures commit a lot of crime and often integrate less well. 

[Girzo]

4 hours ago, Nabd said:

If a group of French guys raped a girl they should be punished extremely. Doesn't matter if their parents are from Morocco or not.

Rape cases are neglected all over the world, that’s why feminists and leftists are fighting for this issue. The idea that the faults of law and judiciary systems are somehow due to the left-leaning people is laughable.

[Danioover9000]

   The problem here is not enough perspective taking, or going meta due to limiting beliefs and fears you have from your shadow selves you suppress. Try to be post modernist in your thinking and try to look at the world from the perspectives you don't like and find immoral. Try to understand and empathize with those kinds of worldviews for a week or a few months, just think, see, hear, and feel from their lens of this world. That way you understand the racist's, or rapist's, or other evil person's worldview, and out of love, not hate, you finally correct that worldview and resolve it in your mind and heart.

[BlueOak]

7 hours ago, Nabd said:

This is the problem of the left because they refuse to address such things like refugees or migrants being more prone to commit crimes.

Doesn't matter the point is just be less lenient.

Can you link Statistics or Data? Then I'll link the effect of poverty on crime.

I will bet you all I own, that these two graphs will almost line up.

Edited December 16, 2023 by BlueOak

[Schizophonia]

5 hours ago, Girzo said:

Rape cases are neglected all over the world, that’s why feminists and leftists are fighting for this issue. The idea that the faults of law and judiciary systems are somehow due to the left-leaning people is laughable.

There is no point if left-wing policies do not lead to a significant reduction in the number of rapes.

A good policy is an effective policy

Edited December 16, 2023 by Schizophonia

[PurpleTree]

42 minutes ago, Nabd said:

of people committing crimes in Europe wouldn't dare to commit them in their country of origin because even if you were not charged you would be socially isolated and no one will wanna associate with you, but in Europe they know no one and there is no societal pressure.

For example I know a guy who grabbed a girl ass in an event as a way to flirt and she didn't like it and he was basically socially castrated. These kind of things (basically living in society) makes it hard for someone to trespass because you will be kicked out of the tribe. This doesn't exist in Europe where refugees are suddenly in a new environment and many of them are sexually repressed and combine that with poverty or even just ambiguity regarding their future and you have a horny group of males who are extremely hard to control.

So now we have to revert back in spiral dynamics in many european countries because of immigrants from certain countries, don’t you think that’s bad?

[BlueOak]

Thanks. @Nabd - NB You could make a refined argument related to culture/ethnicity and DEFINITELY education, or a broader one into spatial spillover, the technical term for the spillover effects in this case on the general population. If any data shows German citizens of different cultures, it would prove your point more, because there would be fewer variables other than culture/religion etc. Especially across the social spectrum, if it includes different levels of income.

The first is a link documenting islamophobia or public perception, which I agree is an issue, but isn't a reference for how many migrants commit crimes. It has a % number but doesn't source it or go into detail.

The second link is something we can compare for reference. I'll do this in two ways, one my own figures of the general population, and then just migrants. Highlighting up front that these are suspects, not criminals.

The General Population

1, https://www.statista.com/statistics/886209/foreigner-numbers-germany/ - Total non-German citizens living in Germany - 13,383,000
2, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings - Tourists visiting 28,500,000 Million

Not accounting for people who came just to commit crimes illegally entering, we can assume a relatively minor number but it's an unknown variable that will skew the figures somewhat.
Total:  41,883,000 

Germany's population:
84,432,670

Your link shows German citizens suspected of 1,309,906 of the total crimes.
Non-German Citizens suspects: 783 876

41,883,000 / 783,876 is one in 53.43 people suspected of a crime.
84,432,670 / 1,309,906 is one in 64.45 people suspected of a crime.

Not much difference. As you've said in the first link, there is a perception bias toward Islamophobia, which police are not completely immune from either. As this is suspects, not criminals, that is part of the disparity.

One disparity for these figures will be, petty crimes of tourists who are unaware of the law/cultural values, and as referenced people just crossing illegal to commit crime, ex: organized crime, or otherwise state-sponsored bad actors.

Focusing just on Migrants.

So let's take the 310,062 who are migrants. According to your linked article, more than half of those suspects are immigration violations.
It lists 142,720 suspects as not immigration-related crimes. One of the factors is that many of them are young, and young people are more prone to crime, 57%, so we could take 7% off again off the end result, to get a comparative social value. You might argue this but if we want a flat average value, eliminating the age variable, and the fact native Germans cannot commit immigration violations is preferable.

https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Society-Environment/Population/Migration/Tables/migration-total.html

In 2022, net Migrations to Germany was 1,462,089, but total migration was 2,665,772. These 2.6 Million would be the people you are talking about.
142,720 is 1 in 18.6 Migrants being suspected of a crime (non immigration related), we could reduce this a bit for it being a large male bias (86%), and men being slightly more likely to commit crimes, (much more likely on violent crimes.)

However, a big factor will be:

https://trustforlondon.org.uk/data/crime-and-income-deprivation/
Quote: Overall, 52% more crimes were recorded in the most income-deprived areas in 2022

This takes us to 18.6 x 1.5 = 27.9 or 1 in 28 From what i've read. If you are following me here, using this helps eliminate socio-economic conditions from the equation.

Finding data specific to Germany is nearly a nightmare without paying for research articles, (Corporatists don't like to show the ugly side of income equality). So i'll source what I can from a broader collection, if you want I can certainly grab more sources.

Figure 2 - https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/usappblog/2016/07/08/how-neighborhood-inequality-leads-to-higher-crime-rates/

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/06/07/the-stark-relationship-between-income-inequality-and-crime
This gives the view from the victim's perspective, living in those poor regions of the world. More of a macro view. The graph trends upwards.

The conclusion I have here is that yes all things being equal. There are more suspects among migrants, we are talking over twice as likely if you look at all this data in as close a direct comparison as I can make it (minus our 7% for age). That in part is reflected in the media's perceptional bias filtering through the general population, the economic downturn looking for an outlet to vent frustration, Russia sending people into Europe specifically to cause social chaos, and the social pressures of such drastic migration. I will concede that some of this has to be down to a lower level of education, and your cultural points.

I just wish there was some statistic of actual CRIMES, not suspicion out there. Then I could directly compare manipulated public perception vs reality.

Hopefully, that was a helpful analysis it was certainly interesting.

Edited December 17, 2023 by BlueOak

[BlueOak]

I did have a second post but I hid it because that was already a lot, I'll repost part as its not numerical and bolsters some of what you say, in the adjustment to cultural biases. The conclusion I made was, that if you can cite cultural and religious influence among or on german citizens, you remove a lot of the bias associated to (and from) the perspective of an immigrant. We can both assume it's not distance or travel that causes this (see the analysis of tourists), but the argument is whether culture/education/religion does, and this can be looked at domestically. - Assuming a period of adjustment when arriving.
@Nabd

I always rationalized the truth regardless of culture usually is. When someone is well-fed, has a roof over their head, clothes on their back, no addictions etc, crime isn't their first choice. Why would it be? It's high risk for little reward for the great majority of people, especially when you can get deported for minor things.

I hadn't taken into account bias enough or education levels, for my wanting to see the world through a purely culturally neutral lens, effectively ignoring bias. As you say propaganda is done both ways, it skews people into positions they wouldn't usually get themselves in. Thus any rationalization towards the practical truth of a situation I can give towards anything, is prone to falling short in encompassing all possible beliefs and values people have.

Yes, you see the reverse of this too, where some behaviors that would see leniency or be ignored completely in their country are criminalized in the country they move to. Thus increasing crime

Insurance fraud doesn't exist in some countries. Especially some former soviet ones. Scams are not just permitted in certain countries they are encouraged due to corruption. India has a huge industry purely built on scamming people, Nigeria too, a bit like the old western mafias extorting people.

People speak of rape for example, I hate discussing this topic for obvious reasons. However, some countries do not grant the same rights to women, they are considered property more than an individual, they would pursue this crime with less vigor, and lesser sentences. Several countries just don't report rape statistics at all.

Edited December 17, 2023 by BlueOak

[PurpleTree]

1 hour ago, Nabd said:

.

Yes you guys are fucked.

No just kidding I think you misunderstood me. Are you referring to what I said about society as in societal pressure so its stage blue? If so then no I don't mean it that way. 

Even you have societal pressure on you even if you are stage orange lets say. But refugees have no connection to the land they are in and know no one so they feel rootless and this doesn't directly mean they will commit crimes but it does affect it.

 

Well you know at one time we were backwards in europe with terms of harsh punishments, womens rights capital punishments etc etc but then We moved up the spiral we made it happen whoopp whoop jail now often is for re integration instead of silly punishments

but now you‘re saying we should have harder punishments again because of backwards immigrants and revert back on the spiral and become more violent and dumber again, which sucks

Edited December 17, 2023 by PurpleTree

[Yimpa]

On 12/5/2023 at 3:52 PM, Buck Edwards said:

How do you rationalize where he is coming from? 

You don’t. You cannot convince someone that hatred is wrong. They have to see it for themselves.. deeply, personally. The good news is that no matter how narrow one’s perspective is, life has its own intelligent way of expanding their perspective. It won’t come effortlessly, though.

[BlueOak]

Something I should have linked up also, is that safety is a big factor in crimes. Violent crimes especially tend to flare up in unsafe areas, and poorer areas are generally more strained for police presence, people willing to report criminals to prevent more serious crime, organized crime or gangs, and the cause for violence (defensive or not) to occur. 

Fear is one of, if not the main motivator for a higher crime rate and social disturbance over a population, which in turn is magnified with world tension rising, gang culture it fosters, and the media using migrants as their current punching bag.

Edited December 17, 2023 by BlueOak