Doctors of the forum: How to kick opiates for good withouth meds?

[Javfly33]

I have turmeric, which i believe It has some natural opioid activity, paracetamol and benzos. 

This should help me for the 5-6 days of the unconfortable physical withdrawal. From there i think is just psychological games until you just forget about them. 

At this point i just dont get anything positive from them. I just take little dose everyday to not feel physical uncomfortable symptons. Literally with my yoguic practice that i have returned to now i feel brighter, happier, even "higuer" that when i take them. They actually bring my mood "down" but since the body is habituated i end Up always doing a dose to get this physical uncomfort out of me. 😪

Should i expect to have PAWS or something like that along the way? Now thinking about Ive doing opiates probably for more than 5 years 🤯 Kratom become Life Coffee lmao.

I ve taken breaks but i think i never have gone more than 2 weeks withouth them. It was always Kratom but this last year ive been riding the oxycodone dragon. Funny enough oxy seems less nasty and uncomfortable to withdraw from than Kratom.

I quit oxy 2 month ago and switched to Kratom. Then i realized kratom sucks, i dont like this, and to withdraw from It i got some oxys again 🤣 so smart i know.

Now been doing oxy for a week. I have to quit now that the body is fresh and there is not much physical dependence. Opiates used to brighten my Life, now they feel like a burden 👎👎👎

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Javfly33

[Schizophonia]

Reduce the frequency of catches little by little, like keeping for the weekend only, then every other weekend etc.
If you really are addicted beyond what you openly tell us, consider asking your doctor to be put on a withdrawal protocol.
Generally it is an alternation between Subutex and substitution products such as Methadone, and/or naltrexone (for reduce cravings).

Edited December 3, 2023 by Schizophonia

[Carl-Richard]

5 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

I ve taken breaks but i think i never have gone more than 2 weeks withouth them.

This suggests the mental part is what is hard, not the physical symptoms. And this agrees with my general knowledge about opioid withdrawals, as well as my personal experience of having overcome an intense daily weed habit (they're actually not too dissimilar). The physical symptoms of opioid withdrawals I've heard been described as no worse than a cold. Weed also has physical symptoms that can be pretty debilitating (inability to eat, sleep, feel pleasure; restlessness, irritability, chronic aches), but in my experience, these are not the main drivers of you taking the drug. Overcoming an addiction requires experiencing all the cycles where a craving tends to arise and then abstaining from the drug (by "cycle", I mean a situation that you associate with drug-taking and which tends to repeat itself). You'll pass through the majority of these cycles within 1 full year, as there will be different occasions depending on the seasons that you'll associate with drug-taking (for example Christmas time, New Years, spring break, etc.).

But even after 1 full year, there are still larger cycles that can trigger you, so the saying "once an addict, always an addict" is true to some extent. It's at least a good mindset to have, because you always have to be on guard, and it's always a work in progress. It's been over 3 years since I last smoked weed, and literally yesterday, my mind thought back to when I used to smoke weed and how "safe" I felt in that habit. I'm a bit lucky in the sense that I literally cannot smoke weed without going into a full-blown ego death and subsequent panic attack, so my mind also has a strong aversion to such thoughts. That's another thing that can help: having a really negative experience that makes you never want to take it again, or at least that makes your brain associate the drug with a really bad experience. In fact, naltrexone therapy works in this way, but it instead involves repeated smaller negative experiences rather than one big one. I don't know the process for initiating such a therapy, but it's something to have in mind.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Carl-Richard]

I felt like writing out a detailed description of one of my toughest weed withdrawal episodes (I'll leave it here if you don't mind). In a funny way, the level of detail I'll be able to provide will in itself be evidence for how severe my withdrawals were, because one interesting side effect from the withdrawals is a marked increase in the encoding of episodic memories (i.e. you suddenly remember a lot of things from those events).

For some context, this happened while I was in Rome with my family for a week when I was 19. I can't really recall the exact order of all the events, but I'll try to recall some of the experiences that stood out and try to describe the symptoms in detail. Also, have in mind that this was a vacation where things are supposed to be cushy and carefree (and it was, at least on the outside). The same symptoms in a different context could make for a different level of struggle. But maybe this is a good thing, as this specific context can help to see the symptoms as they are for themselves, isolated from other struggles.

 

Having trouble finishing food at restaurant

At the peak of the withdrawals, I ordered a lasagna at a restaurant, and I only ate half of it before I had to stop. It was a relatively tiny meal, and I'm not somebody who usually struggles to eat (in fact, the exact opposite). The entire experience of eating the lasagna was sooo slow, it felt like it took forever. Cutting the lasagna and putting the fork in my mouth felt like a chore, like hard work, and it honestly smelled, looked and tasted a bit disgusting (which I somehow knew was all in my head). Even one of the waiters saw that I didn't finish my food, and he was like "ah cmon, you can eat that!", so I forced myself to eat maybe half of what was left. The worst thing was that my stomach was telling me I was hungry, but my desire for the food was zero.

In summary, an intense lack of enjoyment of food.

 

Trying to think but being unable to connect trains of thought

One of my favorite activities while being high was to think hundreds of wild thoughts each minute, one building on another; just an endless frenzy of creative brainstorming. During weed withdrawals, of course the complete opposite of this happened, and to quite a surprising extent. I would catch myself starting to form an interesting line of thought, like "Aha! Let's see where this one leads!", and then I would simply lose the trail almost before it started. It was like my mind was confined to these short chunks of boring, uninteresting and uncreative thoughts, and man, that was like taking away my only superpower. I had really no other way to entertain myself, because everything else that was happening of outside my mind was equally as bland and boring, which I'll get to next.

In summary, a marked anti-psychotic effect, lack of creativity and mental connectivity, like injecting normie MBTI sensor serum.

 

Being unable to enjoy a segway ride through the city

We took a segway ride, which was fun in one way because I had never tried it before, but I was constantly filled with this sense of dread and physical unease. It was like a horrible mix of anxiety, depression and existential despair, all while feeling like having the body of a 80 year old: muscles and tendons aching, a constant sense of tightness, pain and a weird kind of hotness overlaying my tactile sensory field. My senses were dull, nothing looked or felt interesting. Everything was put on low volume, and it was as if a grey hue was overlaying my vision. And it all felt very stupid: I had no external reason to feel the way I was feeling, but still, I was feeling like a bag of sand trying very hard to be human.

In summary, anhedonia, dysphoria, mental anguish, pain.

 

Speaking louder and more than usual

Something which is probably related to the general blunting of sensory activity was that I started speaking really loudly, like socially disruptive kind of loud. I was sitting at a restaurant, and it was probably a little later in the withdrawal episode because I don't remember having problems eating. After having like 1-2 beers, I could notice that other people in the restaurant would look weirdly at my when I would laugh. Speaking was kind of a weird experience generally, because my ability to speak didn't require any real mechanical effort. It was as if the words just fell out of my mouth in a blunt way. Likewise, my threshold for speaking was lowered, meaning I would speak much more often than I usually would. It was like the internal mental diarrhea you get from weed was converted to external verbal diarrhea, of course without the creativity and conceptual finesse that weed gives you. And you can certainly notice this when smoking weed that your voice gets much lower and more feminine, and that you also get more easily stuck inside your own mental world and are therefore less likely to speak. So of course the opposite would be expected to happen during weed withdrawals. It was just surprising how intense that effect showed itself.

In summary, I became a mix of a loud-mouthed brute and a social butterfly.

 

Trouble sleeping, sweating, tossing and turning

The title describes itself. The ability to sleep is just zapped, you just lie there staring into blackness. And there is really nothing you can do about it, because get this: you're unable to masturbate. Anhedonia and sleeplessness is just the worst combination of symptoms.

In summary, little sleep, a lot of sweat, a lot of movement.

 

Those were the main events that came to mind, but there are also similar memories that echo the same symptoms (for example, when I was in the Sistine Chapel and was unable to truly enjoy it). But again, the positive thing is that I get to remember a lot of it  There are probably some other symptoms that I left out, for example irritability (which I think I had some level of), but I'm also an exceptionally non-irritable person  In a weird way, maybe this can inspire you to undertake the physical symptoms, knowing that other people have done it before, even though they're not identical symptoms (even so, I would suggest that the strength of symptoms is more important than the type). Then again, it's not the physical symptoms that are the main challenge. It's the thousands of micro-personalities you've built up that act on cravings and that you have to rewrite.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Raze]

https://www.shinzen.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/art_urges.pdf

https://www.shinzen.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/art_synopsis-pain.pdf

[flowboy]

@Javfly33  At the risk of stating the obvious: have you considered iboga? It would solve your problem.

[Javfly33]

8 minutes ago, flowboy said:

@Javfly33  At the risk of stating the obvious: have you considered iboga? It would solve your problem.

Ive thought of It, is just difficult to find a retreat to do It. But yeah It probably would be an interesting experience. 

I was actually going to get microdoses, a member of this forum was trying microdosing iboga.

[Javfly33]

 

On 04/12/2023 at 1:06 AM, Carl-Richard said:

Then again, it's not the physical symptoms that are the main challenge. It's the thousands of micro-personalities you've built up that act on cravings and that you have to rewrite.

Yeah, absolutely. A week off can be done by anyone. But deciding to not do them again, one has to be really sure they are not offering you anything positive in your life. 

 

[Javfly33]

On 03/12/2023 at 10:53 PM, Schizophonia said:

If you really are addicted beyond what you openly tell us, consider asking your doctor to be put on a withdrawal protocol.
Generally it is an alternation between Subutex and substitution products such as Methadone, and/or naltrexone (for reduce cravings).

No, not really. If I withdraw I don´t puke, or have nausea, or serious pain. Just a feeling of uncomfortability through the whole body for 4-5 days (which can be alleviated with exercise). 

Quote

Reduce the frequency of catches little by little, like keeping for the weekend only, then every other weekend etc.

I´m going to try that. Today I took my last dose but im leaving 5 pills on my car lol. Let´s see if I can be strict with myself if not I´ll have to throw them and fuck it  

My attachment is that last year I went out so much thanks to oxy. It made me so social and mood-boosted. Part of me wants to leave them to be able to take them once in a while. But if the cost is physical dependence then I won´t pay that price.

At the end of it I can go out totally sober, is just that I´ll probably more picky with where I go out. (which maybe is precisely what I need to do).

Edited December 5, 2023 by Javfly33

[flowboy]

Can't be that difficult. I know tons of people that have done it. Seems to be a promising cure for opiate addiction, apparently you really don't want it anymore after a flood dose.

That said, someone I know was at an iboga retreat recently where this woman was suddenly dead. Super weird. It's not as safe as psilocybin.

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

Check this one out:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0676977413/ref=mp_s_a_1_4?crid=VBOGTUZXLACQ&keywords=realm+of+hungry+ghosts&qid=1701784224&sprefix=realm+of%2Caps%2C605&sr=8-4

Amazing book about addiction and its connection to trauma. One of the most captivating & well written books I have ever read.

[Carl-Richard]

On 5.12.2023 at 11:54 AM, Javfly33 said:

Yeah, absolutely. A week off can be done by anyone. But deciding to not do them again, one has to be really sure they are not offering you anything positive in your life. 

And I don't use "personalities" for no reason. These are people inside your mind that are giving convincing and in-depth arguments for why you should continue taking the drug, and they're just as smart as you, if not smarter (because they're highly motivated). 

I've sometimes described it as demonic possession, in the sense that the devil is smarter than you, stronger than you, and of course knows how to deceive and manipulate you. It has a finger on the button of your emotions, it knows the ins and outs of your conscious and subconscious mind, and it essentially has the combined intellect of a debate panel of several PhD-level experts in multiple fields. Most importantly, it lies (or at least fails to keep promises) — oh, so much. "I'll start tomorrow...".

It might seem like I'm catastrophizing, but I believe it's a realistic and useful attitude for viewing the phenomenon. Every time you have a craving, you should remind yourself what you're up against, not as a reason to give up because it all seems too futile, but because it gives you the strength and tools to understand and deal with your cravings.

It also helped me a lot to view every painful encounter with a craving (painful because of not acting on it) as a sign of growth. In a way, it tricks your brain to associate the rewiring process with something positive. Every painful experience is re-contextualized as a reward. It's quite genius if you ask me. It's still very hard, and you should use every inch of your meditation experience to your favor: be vigorously self-aware and present with what is going on in your mind at all times. Be conscious of every decision that your mind makes.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Carl-Richard]

@Javfly33 I've always thought that my addiction story turning out the way it did was based on an entourage of many lucky events coming together. One thing I rarely mention is that the time I really took my first "voluntary" break, I had been given an ultimatum by my mom that I would either quit or move out (she had found out many times by then).

At the same time, maybe only a week or two before, the spiritual Discord server I was in (which infamously devolved into a cult) had concluded that all psychedelics (including weed) could be a source of negative energies and that we had to abstain from them if we wanted to stay on the server. Also, the belief that negative energies was a bad thing had started to affect me.

All in all, a confluence of two big factors occured for me to finally take the first voluntary step towards sobriety: social and financial threats from my mom, and a change in belief system as well social pressure from the Discord server. Also, I believed I could replace my weed with meditation (that was a huge one), so in reality it was three big factors. I had effectively started to believe that continuing my weed habit was no longer sustainable and that there were other alternatives for me to feel good (and feel alive).

The problem in enacting these insights in practice for somebody else is that it's hard to artificially induce social pressure from someone whom their opinion is something you care about. Also, you do not choose your beliefs. Artificially inducing a situation where your beliefs change in a direction conducive to sobriety is probably even harder than the former. That said, every addiction story is different. Maybe you're less deep in the trouble that I was in and that these things are not needed. Still, if nothing seems to end up working for you, these are things to consider.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Javfly33]

@Carl-Richard with what substance was your addiction?

[Carl-Richard]

On 6.12.2023 at 0:56 PM, Javfly33 said:

@Carl-Richard with what substance was your addiction?

Weed. Don't let anybody tell you it's not addictive. I also did other substances in combination for certain periods, but weed was the mainstage. Weed was very attractive to me because of how it affected my creativity. I remember one time trying to combine it with a large dose of alcohol (like 5-6 beers), and I noticed that it removed that creative edge, or at least the speed of the thoughts, which I believe is why I never became an alcoholic. My main method of escape was through immersion in a fantasy world of conceptual thinking. Alcohol on the other hand seemed to numb out all forms of thinking, which I didn't like.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Javfly33]

17 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Weed. Don't let anybody tell you it's not addictive. I also did other substances in combination for certain periods, but weed was the mainstage. Weed was very attractive to me because of how it affected my creativity. I remember one time trying to combine it with a large dose of alcohol (like 5-6 beers), and I noticed that it removed that creative edge, or at least the speed of the thoughts, which I believe is why I never became an alcoholic. My method of escape was through immersion in a fantasy world of conceptual thinking. Alcohol on the other hand seems to numb out all forms of thinking, which I didn't like.

Yeah no, i understand. I smoked weed on my own for the first time one month ago and fast It started to become a daily habit. Im not fan of the side effects so thats what i stopped but if i ever have smoked It younger i probably end up doing It every day.

Update: Second day off the oxys! I still have those 5 pills in my car though...but at least being physically clean Will be such a víctory already🙏

Psychological attachment is another beast 😪

[Javfly33]

Day 2 off them oxys and I feel surprisingly not that bad. I think by Saturday I´ll be completely fine/to baseline. 🥳

 

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

3 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

Psychological attachment is another beast 😪

Exactly. It's good that you seem to be able to at least temporarily suppress the substance cravings, but a long-term solution is only possible if you address the root cause of those addictive tendencies. Which requires effective trauma healing (through therapy).

[OBEler]

@Javfly33 Just out of curiosity, how Did you came addicted to oxy? How did it all start? You are very conscious, so I ask me if you were back then aware that oxy will get you addicted one day and you took it anyway? 

 

[Javfly33]

1 hour ago, OBEler said:

@Javfly33 Just out of curiosity, how Did you came addicted to oxy? How did it all start? You are very conscious, so I ask me if you were back then aware that oxy will get you addicted one day and you took it anyway? 

 

Well, heres the thing. To the contrary that most people think, i dont find addiction neccesarily bad. As long as the addiction is giving you what you want out of It, what IS. the problem with having a depedence to It?

We have a dependence to water, food, and some of US guys also to Coffee. The reason why most of us keep doing coffee is because in our análisis, is worth to be addicted to It. Or in other words, the mental benefits from Coffee justify having a physical dependence and daily habit to It. 

When i wanted to try Oxy is because i knew there was a certain karmic energy that was causing all the trouble in my Life. This realization (of realizing my mental healtht issues werent because my mind, my actions but because of a certain energy) came first on an LSD trip 4 years ago. At the point of trying oxy i had burned all normal possibilities (therapy, reading books, Will power, exercise, etc...), and after doing kratom for some years I knew opiates were capable of completely neutralizing this karmic dark energy, although, at least in the case of kratom, at the expense of creating some mental fog and low motivation and emotional numbing, so Kratom wasnt really working for that purpose.

At that point i did some research and i Heard oxycodone was considered the gold standard for an "funcional opiate". At that point i had nothing to lose. In my view, if getting addicted to It would mean overpowering this dark karmic energy, i said where do i sign. 

And so indeed my suspiction was right. Oxy hits very well that dark karmic energy and neutralizes. Is just doesn't numb It like a benzo or alcohol does. No. Oxy literally puts you in a certain vibration above those low vibration karmic energies. After some trials i realized this was the chem.

Only after some months of casually using to avoid physical dependence i chosed to start using daily. It wasnt a compulsive decision. It was conscious. I wanted to see how far It could take me. At that point i was going out a lot and meeting lots of people, i was not your typical opiate heroin User that just go reclude itself in their basement. I never used oxy alone at home to avoid Life, i used to enhance It. To go to parties, to try new stuff, etc...

However, and just how i suspected before, daily use ruins tolerance too much. The protection from the karmic substance gets lower. And not only that now when you are not under the drug your vibrating much lower because of the chemical inbalances.

It all quite ended when i had this last date with this girl last summer and i had a Deep "relapse" on this dark karmic energy, even tough i was popping oxys each day. At this point i knew clear the strategy no longer worked. It was good while It lasted i Guess.

In summary, Is not that i got addicted, IS that i forced myself to get addicted. I wanted to know how far It could take me. I was very confortable in my sober Life and popping a couple of times a week in the weekend. I just wanted to see if it could be a permanent solution use to neutralize this energy. If that meant being addicted to It so be It. I endured mild physical withdrawal almost everyday, for months, i would to go the gym mildly sick, i thought, if this is the price to be protected from the dark energy, fuck It! I can do this for a lifetime. I dont care.

However, as always, chemical tolerace is a bitch. Is just stops working. So right now going back fully sober. My main Focus now is the sadhana. I have right now all Focus and energy on sadhana. I have a intuition this shamavhi Will be strong enough to dismantle the energy. Is not as easy as popping pill but i have a suspiction It Will be much powerful than any drug. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Javfly33