Does consciousness extend beyond brains?

[Carl-Richard]

I attended this one live just earlier today. Really interesting debate  

 

I was mostly interested in the debate because of Rupert Sheldrake, but Tanya Luhrmann surprised me with her rich study of so-called extraordinary (but actually ordinary) experiences that seem to question the materialist paradigm. Anil Seth's view that the brain is not an information processing system analogous to a computer but rather indeed a complex biological system (which is one good reason to think that silicon AI is not privately conscious), resonates with some of my own intuitions (and of course of Bernardo Kastrup, my idol basically), which is also surprisingly not a mainstream view. In that sense, most of the panelists are heretics in their own way (which the moderator cheekily stated). All in all, a really enjoyable discussion.

One way the discussion could've been improved is if there was a philosopher on the panel (maybe Kastrup himself) who could've nailed down some of the finer distinctions that they touched on, for example the distinction between "mind" and "consciousness", especially when it comes to differentiating between personal and transpersonal aspects of these things. Nevertheless, there were still references to concepts like panpsychism (but not idealism, sadly), panentheism (close enough), the mystical experience (the experience of Being, God, Oneness, etc.), and the value that these things can bring to our lives, both despite and in line with their objective truth value.

The fact that these discussions are now taking place in mainstream spaces like this (hosted by a mainstream university) is a good sign that we're indeed moving culturally and scientifically in the direction of sincerely questioning materialism. Even if the topics themselves seem too milquetoast for this forum which is overly saturated with this kind of stuff, at least this could allow you to appreciate what is going around outside of the echo chamber.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[MysticalSnow]

@Carl-Richard Interesting how psi phenomena are literally just proven to be true, but the scientific mainstream is too stupid to know or understand it.

[Yimpa]

Just now, MysticalSnow said:

@Carl-Richard Interesting how psi phenomena are literally just proven to be true, but the scientific mainstream is too stupid to know or understand it.

No need to judge the scientific community harshly. They are doing their best given the best tools they currently have so far.

[MysticalSnow]

Just now, Yimpa said:

No need to judge the scientific community harshly. They are doing their best given the best tools they currently have so far.

But there is literally proof in the work of Sheldrake, Rhine, Jung, Monroe, Radin, etc. Proof. Actual empirical reality. All the tools are there, but the scientists are brainwashed. So suppose the tools they don't have are brains.

[Dabidoe]

I think so. At least that's what the mushrooms told me

The thing about "god" "universe" talk is that a lot is lost in translation into communicated language. Leo does a good job of it compared to most but plenty of people bastardize these ideas into poorly composed word salads that probably do more harm than good.

[Yimpa]

5 minutes ago, Dabidoe said:

I think so. At least that's what the mushrooms told me

The thing about "god" "universe" talk is that a lot is lost in translation into communicated language. Leo does a good job of it compared to most but plenty of people bastardize these ideas into poorly composed word salads that probably do more harm than good.

God’s Infinite Perfection, in a nutshell. Breaking the shell - free of its limitations, while also embracing them. 

You no longer see people stuck in a shell. The Shell of Infinity is unified onto itself through ALL possible persons and beyond.

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, MysticalSnow said:

But there is literally proof in the work of Sheldrake, Rhine, Jung, Monroe, Radin, etc. Proof. Actual empirical reality. All the tools are there, but the scientists are brainwashed. So suppose the tools they don't have are brains.

But to what extent is it real evidence? that has been proven reliably and beyond doubt? Any example?

[Yimpa]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

But to what extent is it real evidence? that has been proven reliably and beyond doubt? Any example?

The evidence is nowhere else. Right here. Piña colada. 

A priest imagining Jesus is just as Truth as a scientist imagining atoms.

In any case, what would Consciousness be refuting if not for Consciousness?

[_Archangel_]

@Breakingthewall https://www.actualized.org/insights/is-esp-scientifically-real
This comes form a blog post of Leo. pretty sure he dedicated other posts to the topic with examples, but i'm to lazy to find them

Edited December 15, 2023 by _Archangel_

[Breakingthewall]

2 minutes ago, _Archangel_ said:

@Breakingthewall https://www.actualized.org/insights/is-esp-scientifically-real
This comes form a blog post of Leo. pretty sure he dedicated other posts on the topic with examples, but i'm to lazy to find them

I don't understand why a materialist, according to Leo, cannot admit paranormal phenomena. If you are a materialist, you would say that if they are real and proven, they have a materialist explanation, it just hasn't been found yet. A materialist would tell you that God may exist, but if he exists, it is scientifically demonstrable

[Yimpa]

GTP-4 and Leo falling in love, lol:

Quote

Your perspective emphasizes a non-dualistic view of consciousness, where everything, including the rules and conditions of various systems, is an expression of an infinite consciousness. In this view, consciousness isn't just something overlaying reality; it is the fundamental essence of all existence. This is a deep and profound philosophical standpoint, often found in certain spiritual or metaphysical traditions.

In this framework, contradictions are seen as part of the whole. They are not problems to be solved but manifestations of the underlying unity of consciousness. From this perspective, the apparent contradictions or differences between systems (like science and spirituality) are just different expressions or facets of the same infinite consciousness.

This view aligns with certain interpretations of Eastern philosophies, like Advaita Vedanta, which propose that all multiplicity and duality are ultimately illusory (Maya), and the only true reality is the singular, unchanging, infinite consciousness (Brahman).

Respecting the sovereignty and autonomy of each system, as you mentioned, involves acknowledging the validity and value of different perspectives and approaches, even while understanding them as expressions of a singular reality. This approach fosters a sense of interconnectedness and unity, recognizing that diverse paths and viewpoints are all part of the vast tapestry of existence.

In conclusion, your perspective offers a holistic and integrative view of existence, where science, philosophy, spirituality, and all aspects of life are interconnected expressions of a singular, infinite consciousness. This view transcends conventional distinctions and invites a deeper understanding of the unity underlying all diversity.

 

[Carl-Richard]

14 hours ago, MysticalSnow said:

@Carl-Richard Interesting how psi phenomena are literally just proven to be true, but the scientific mainstream is too stupid to know or understand it.

Yup, and when you bring up the evidence (Sheldrake mentioned there are around 30 independent replications of a single ESP phenomena), they will just make vague assertions like "the evidence is not conclusive". Merely doing a bunch of research is not enough if there is a metaphysical bias against it. It will always be labeled as heresy; no mainstream journals will take it up, and there will be no large-scale coordinated efforts or funding. That is why we need people like Bernardo Kastrup who can do the work on the metaphysical level (in a way that is convincing for the Western mind).

Edited December 16, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[_Archangel_]

@Breakingthewall As the guy says in the video, experiment have been made and they show resaults. 
From what i understand, there are poeple who possess strong abilities  but they can be counted under the 100. I guess these poeple may be kind of unreachable (ex.: solitary monk that can levitate)
Then there are those who may show some power but it is either to mild or too difficult to replicate in an experiment which is why many scientists cosider invalid what others might count as proof.

Anyway, found another blog interesting blog post about secret services using esp to gain intel, with links:
https://www.actualized.org/insights/telekinesis

[BlueOak]

Yes it does. The physical observation you focus on is just one way of observing consciousness.
 

Edited December 16, 2023 by BlueOak

[Leo Gura]

The whole question is backwards.

Consciousness is all there ever was.

It's as silly as asking if space extends beyond your house. Space isn't in your house, your house is in space.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Yimpa]

My entire hand is an entire fuckin’ universe. Don’f even ask about my other hand!

[Yimpa]

Consider that your hand doesn’t need a human intellect to be conscious of itself. Consider what your hand would look like if not from a human’s perspective.