How do we Solve Birthrate crisis?

[BlueOak]

Good.

Maybe they'll be enough space and resources to go around. We won't burn the planet to a desert chasing an extra buck, and we won't continue to cram humans into increasingly smaller spaces with less, just to maintain an arbitrary birthrate we've decided we want to maintain, or line some rich guys pockets more each month by increasing collective suffering.

Positive things all around.

[Raze]

It’s sad everyone pretends to know, they say “let us work less” “more feminism” “less feminism”

harsh reality, none of those will work. It’s happening all over the world in countries with high work hours, low work hours, high feminism, low feminism, etc.

No one has presented an actual solution.

[bebotalk]

I don't see why it needs to be fixed. 

The solution is immigration, though the West should emphasise immigration from similar cultures to reduce friction. If it's a country like Britain, then this should be like European countries such as Poland or Czechia, or Commonwealth states with linguistic or cultural ties, such as Australia, India, Nigeria, Canada, South Africa, etc. 

Lower birth rates are good for curbing the strain on natural resources and the environment. It means less land used for agriculture, less need to extract base and precious metals, and less need to overfish and pollute oceans.

It also means more innovation in ensuring economic growth with a slower birth rate. 

People often compare it to decades or centuries past. Well, times move on, as does understanding. In the 19th century, with more widespread poverty, having many kids was necessary as insurance in old age, and also as child mortality was high. 

Lower fertility rates are a universal phenomenon, and are present in liberal Western countries such as Canada or the UK, through to Islamic states such as Iran and Saudi Arabia. China, India, Nigeria, Brazil, etc. are all experiencing it too. I'd argue it's better medical care, and less need to have many kids that is causing it. 

I don't believe it's a problem in itself. Even if one doesn't think global warming is man-made, then there are other valid environmental effects. These are soil degradation, pollution of rivers, oceans, and lakes, micro-plastics and littering, de-forestation, forest fires, etc. Saying environmentalism at all is invalid is false, and with fewer people, it means that existing resources we need to survive are not as exhausted or spoilt. 

 

[Raze]

5 hours ago, bebotalk said:

I don't see why it needs to be fixed. 

The solution is immigration, though the West should emphasise immigration from similar cultures to reduce friction. If it's a country like Britain, then this should be like European countries such as Poland or Czechia, or Commonwealth states with linguistic or cultural ties, such as Australia, India, Nigeria, Canada, South Africa, etc. 

Lower birth rates are good for curbing the strain on natural resources and the environment. It means less land used for agriculture, less need to extract base and precious metals, and less need to overfish and pollute oceans.

It also means more innovation in ensuring economic growth with a slower birth rate. 

People often compare it to decades or centuries past. Well, times move on, as does understanding. In the 19th century, with more widespread poverty, having many kids was necessary as insurance in old age, and also as child mortality was high. 

Lower fertility rates are a universal phenomenon, and are present in liberal Western countries such as Canada or the UK, through to Islamic states such as Iran and Saudi Arabia. China, India, Nigeria, Brazil, etc. are all experiencing it too. I'd argue it's better medical care, and less need to have many kids that is causing it. 

I don't believe it's a problem in itself. Even if one doesn't think global warming is man-made, then there are other valid environmental effects. These are soil degradation, pollution of rivers, oceans, and lakes, micro-plastics and littering, de-forestation, forest fires, etc. Saying environmentalism at all is invalid is false, and with fewer people, it means that existing resources we need to survive are not as exhausted or spoilt. 

 

It’s a problem because the government needs young people who work to tax to support its systems and older people who can’t work. The issue isn’t necessarily that it’s dropping its how fast it’s dropping. Too much immigration can cause violence and racism and what happens when the countries they pull people from also start declining in birth rates?

[rnd]

Birthday rate on the West. And how to solve it.... Perhaps with more of that  what the West already been encouraging  - lgbt, gay, lesbians, one-sex marridges? 

Edited December 3, 2023 by rnd

[rnd]

8 hours ago, bebotalk said:

Lower fertility rates are a universal phenomenon, and are present in liberal Western countries such as Canada or the UK, through to Islamic states such as Iran and Saudi Arabia. China, India, Nigeria, Brazil, etc. are all experiencing it too. I'd argue it's better medical care, and less need to have many kids that is causing it. 
 

You don't know what you're talking about.

India, Brazil and Nigeria are certantly not experincing decline in population. Vice versa.

China is, which is a result of "one famility - one child" policy back several dozens years ago.
Europe is.
Korea is, Japan is.
US is at standstill, it seems

The fact that Europe, US, Korea, Japan have advanced economies doesn't make them attractive for giving birth and raising children. So much so that it's the opposite.

"Better health care -- less need for more children" --  meaning, in the past the woman  would give birth to 10 children because 7-8 of them would die "along the way", whereas nowadays it's become so much better in terms of saving lifes that the woman would give birth only to 1-2 children? No need for more.
 

Whatever it may be that you smoke  it's too heavy for you.

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by rnd

[Buck Edwards]

I think the falling birth rates can be attributed to unemployment. Also war has a significant impact on people's morale. In the absence of a traditional Christian society and post second world war, the situation in most European countries has probably been quite difficult. In such a scenario, most people would not look at having children as a favorable addition to their lives. 

I don't understand why immigrants are a problem though. In what way are their values not consistent. If they work hard, pay taxes, follow laws, and abide by the general environment of the city/nation, how are they not contributing to the economy. Maybe the belief that their values are different is simply a belief? A projection perhaps. What if over time they become a part of the general population and get westernized like the rest. You already see that in America, just a good example how immigration has always worked in the favor of the country. America is a melting pot of different ethnicities and I don't see much trouble. Most people follow laws. 

 

[bebotalk]

Why unemployment? People have had jobs since WW2, and even before then there were economic crises. The USA was founded as an immigrant country. BUt in other countries, such as in Europe or Asia, immigration has been an issue, especially with people of disparate cultures. 

[bebotalk]

6 hours ago, rnd said:

You don't know what you're talking about.

India, Brazil and Nigeria are certantly not experincing decline in population. Vice versa.

China is, which is a result of "one famility - one child" policy back several dozens years ago.
Europe is.
Korea is, Japan is.
US is at standstill, it seems

The fact that Europe, US, Korea, Japan have advanced economies doesn't make them attractive for giving birth and raising children. So much so that it's the opposite.

"Better health care -- less need for more children" --  meaning, in the past the woman  would give birth to 10 children because 7-8 of them would die "along the way", whereas nowadays it's become so much better in terms of saving lifes that the woman would give birth only to 1-2 children? No need for more.
 

Whatever it may be that you smoke  it's too heavy for you.

 

Birth rates are falling globally. This is distinct from being at a standstill. Certain countries may not be experiencing falling populations, but their birth rates are lessening. So population growth would logically be at a lower rate currently and in the future. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53409521

https://www.vox.com/23971366/declining-birth-rate-fertility-babies-children

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/brazil-census-shows-population-growth-its-slowest-since-1872-2023-06-28/#:~:text=Brazil's population growth has been,said reflected lower birth rates.&text="In 2022%2C the annual growth,Duarte said in a statement.

Brazil's population growth rate is slowing. The UK has seen a growth in population, which is a richer country than Brazil, but like many other countries has seen a fall in fertility and birth rates (they aren't the same thing). 

And yes, people in the past globally used to have children due to high child mortality rates. And? This is a historical and medical fact. That's why mass vaccination of kids is a boon. We all got our BCGs or Tetanus jabs for this reason. Prior to modern medicine, parents would have many children to offset this, in part. Actually, yes, you've hit the nail on the head as to why historically birth rates were higher. 

 

Your points don't even address mine. But just narratives you made in your head. As well as a lack of rudimentary economic, sociological, and historical understanding. Whatever church taught you basically deluded you. You've also demonstrated that you cannot read, nor even reason properly. Yes, fertility rates are lowering globally. But populations are still rising. That's perfectly reasonable and rational. 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by bebotalk

[bebotalk]

6 hours ago, rnd said:

Birthday rate on the West. And how to solve it.... Perhaps with more of that  what the West already been encouraging  - lgbt, gay, lesbians, one-sex marridges? 

So is this the same in Iran, the tolerant, liberal and progressive secular country? Their birth/fertility rates are falling also. Japan isn't LgBT-friendly, yet has lower birth/fertility rates than Western European countries. Gay people can have kids anyhow. 

[bebotalk]

6 hours ago, Raze said:

It’s a problem because the government needs young people who work to tax to support its systems and older people who can’t work. The issue isn’t necessarily that it’s dropping its how fast it’s dropping. Too much immigration can cause violence and racism and what happens when the countries they pull people from also start declining in birth rates?

Older people are fitter these days due to modern medicine. Yes, they will retire but you'd be surprised as a number of them work or do jobs. If anything, to keep them active and get in money without withering away or being idle. 

Immigration causes issues when disparate peoples come in, without recourse to integrate or pressure/persuasion to integrate. A major cause of racism towards immigrants is due to ghettoisation and a lack of integration. There can even be bigotry towards immigrants of the same race. Multi-culturalism has failed since it's been misguidedly implemented and not accounted for migrants' integration into existing communities. 

[Raze]

14 minutes ago, bebotalk said:

Older people are fitter these days due to modern medicine. Yes, they will retire but you'd be surprised as a number of them work or do jobs. If anything, to keep them active and get in money without withering away or being idle. 

Immigration causes issues when disparate peoples come in, without recourse to integrate or pressure/persuasion to integrate. A major cause of racism towards immigrants is due to ghettoisation and a lack of integration. There can even be bigotry towards immigrants of the same race. Multi-culturalism has failed since it's been misguidedly implemented and not accounted for migrants' integration into existing communities. 

Older people are fitter because they are living longer, they will still have long periods where they are too old to work. 
 

 

[Bobby_2021]

Whites think it's cool to not care about birthrate crisis and this could somehow be offset by immigration.

Immigration can be functional in US/Canada.

But in EU it's not going to work. And irrevocably changing the demographics has far reaching consequences on culture as a whole and we would not be able to reverse it once it has gone past the breaking point.

I highly suggest giving tax breaks to parents who has 3 or more kids for a decade or so. That would help them a lot.

Poor people outbreeding the rich folks is a serious problem and it's time we acknowledge it for what it is. 

And no there won't be any constraints on the resources. Human resources is the biggest resource and we will use that to find even more in the future. So stop worrying about overpopulation or resources constraints. 

[bebotalk]

6 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Whites think it's cool to not care about birthrate crisis and this could somehow be offset by immigration.

Immigration can be functional in US/Canada.

But in EU it's not going to work. And irrevocably changing the demographics has far reaching consequences on culture as a whole and we would not be able to reverse it once it has gone past the breaking point.

I highly suggest giving tax breaks to parents who has 3 or more kids for a decade or so. That would help them a lot.

Poor people outbreeding the rich folks is a serious problem and it's time we acknowledge it for what it is. 

And no there won't be any constraints on the resources. Human resources is the biggest resource and we will use that to find even more in the future. So stop worrying about overpopulation or resources constraints. 

Even in the US/Canada, immigration can be an issue. They are exceptions as they have always been immigrant societies, but united by shared political and cultural ideals. Even then, there are white Americans who differ, such as between the conservative southern states and the liberal western states. 

Human resources need food. More food means more deforestation and environmental pollutants. Yes, we can always devise solutions, but then this assumes that these solutions are readily available or will come before humans extend ourselves too far. Forested areas are required for the atmosphere's oxygen content, and also for global biodiversity. 

EU countries do have issues in immigration. But often due to integration issues. Why is all cultural change negative? France has become a major team in world football as a result of immigration. In Britain, the most popular food is arguably curry. Brexit was due in part to immigration, but often amongst fellow white European migrants from Eastern Europe. It's not necessarily a white vs. non-white thing. 

10 hours ago, Raze said:

Older people are fitter because they are living longer, they will still have long periods where they are too old to work. 
 

 

They're fitter due to better medicine. 

[bebotalk]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_JWeaOXcAAvwYR.jpg

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Total_Fertility_Rate_for_6_Regions_and_the_World%2C_1950-2100%2C_UN2022.svg/405px-Total_Fertility_Rate_for_6_Regions_and_the_World%2C_1950-2100%2C_UN2022.svg.png

 

Interesting to see that across different social, cultural, and economic dynamics, fertility rates are falling. 

The common factors are better healthcare, rising living standards, and less need to have children due to these points. 

[BlueOak]

Does anyone want the answer to this riddle? I mean really want it?

1) Stop ripping down Western institutions that help people.
2) Stop trying to divide up society to make a buck and pitting people against each other.
3) War isn't good for birthrate or the desire to settle down.
4) Welcome economic migration. - Rather than vilifying new people entering the country, make it easier, and then...
5) Make travel between countries easier. - So people can live in their own country still, stop mocking the attempts at hyper fast rail networks
6) Remove the corruption from attempts at travel between countries. These are big projects that need tough complicated regulation.
7) Support families and the creation of new homes. - Look at ways people can start new families, and do things that encourage and make it easier.
8) Support local agriculture and manufacturing, so goods can be purchased more cheaply at home, making families more affordable.
9) Stop denigrating traditionally masculine industries as 'lesser than' or not worth paying much. Such as manufacturing. If you want more masculine men, pairing with feminine women, to then have kids, give reason for them to exist, and be supported culturally.
10) Eliminate the concept of a billionaire, so wealth can go around to those who need it. Nobody needs thousands of millions to be beneficial to society.
11) Stop building large flat houses and look at building upwards, both in terms of farming but also for living. Make nice family-sized, energy-efficient, apartment complexes the norm. Use the land smartly, and make this norm on television shows, in political discourse, everywhere homes are talked about or shown, really normalize it over traditional cottages.
12) Stop ripping up globalism, so we can have countries specialise in certain industries, and thus all work together, rather than try to rip each other down. A stable planet, that is as cheap as we can make it, as supportive as we can make it, and allows as many people to flourish as possible, is the way to increase birthrate naturally. (This is another method in contrast or supportative with local production)
13) Allow a certain amount of social housing, or part-funded house for some time to get people off the streets. Or allow banks to selectively give loans to homeless people, where they have decided the risk in that particular person is worth the investment. Those with no drug use, a history of work or just being priced out of the area is an untapped resource.
14) Allow programs to get people into that selective group for banks or investors, slowly assist people who want to change their life into a place they can, to encourage them to work for a better life.

I can keep throwing things up here but you get the idea. It's not that people don't know the solutions, there are smarter people than me out there, it's just difficult.

I can't wait till this dynamic flips entirely and people start migrating to places with more space, cheaper local food, and cheaper local goods. People are going to lose their minds, then maybe enough people will start to embrace some of the steps needed. I can't emphasize enough that without affordable family homes, food, goods, energy, etc, nobody is going to have a family by choice. 

I wonder if you put the homeless population growth vs the birthrate how much of a correlation you'd get. Certainly, if you put - people able to afford a family home within 5 years vs birthrate I would bet a large correlation would appear.

Edited December 4, 2023 by BlueOak

[martins name]

On 12/3/2023 at 2:22 PM, bebotalk said:

The solution is immigration, though the West should emphasise immigration from similar cultures to reduce friction. If it's a country like Britain, then this should be like European countries such as Poland or Czechia, or Commonwealth states with linguistic or cultural ties, such as Australia, India, Nigeria, Canada, South Africa, etc. 

This is a temporary solution but one that I support. The key is to have a good filter for the people coming in and make it an attractive option for the right people. Eventually, all nations will decline, which is a good thing. But at some point, everyone will have to address the problem. But at that point the will have been improvements in culture, tech, education, and politics, which might make a solution emerge naturally. We just need a string of short-term solutions until we get there.

22 hours ago, Buck Edwards said:

I don't understand why immigrants are a problem though. In what way are their values not consistent. If they work hard, pay taxes, follow laws, and abide by the general environment of the city/nation, how are they not contributing to the economy.

It depends on the type of immigrants. Poor immigrants from Muslim nations don't mix well with European nations. In Sweden, immigrants from the Middle East as a group do none of the things you listed. They strain public resources, have high unemployment, and commit lots of crimes.

1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

I wonder if you put the homeless population growth vs the birthrate how much of a correlation you'd get. Certainly, if you put - people able to afford a family home within 5 years vs birthrate I would bet a large correlation would appear.

There are almost no homeless in Sweden we still have a declining birthrate. The problem is less economic than you think. Nordic countries are proof of it. But economics is part of the problem.

2 hours ago, BlueOak said:

11) Stop building large flat houses and look at building upwards, both in terms of farming but also for living. Make nice family-sized, energy-efficient, apartment complexes the norm. Use the land smartly, and make this norm on television shows, in political discourse, everywhere homes are talked about or shown, really normalize it over traditional cottages.

Urbanization is the biggest contributor to the problem. Houses don't take up most land considering how much land there is in most countries. 

Otherwise, I like the list. thank you!

[martins name]

Thank you to everyone who has replied❤️  After taking it all in I've come to this conclusion:
I've put too much emphasis on Western culture. My attachment to "Western culture" is really just a surface manifestation of my value of healthy vBlue, vOrange and vGreen. What really matters is spiral development. Immigration is the obvious solution here. The key is: what immigration? Two filters should be applied to screen out good fits for Western countries.
The first one is economic. Have money or employment, and education.
The second is cultural fit. This boils down to orthodox religion, mostly Islam, being incompatible with Western European countries. Muslims should be filtered out and it should be made clear that no mosques should be built in Western nations, and people may burn Qurans. Secular people can all easily move up the spiral but Islam is very good at hindering development. Also, the blue vMeme subvalue of a nation should be primarily loyalty to the nation and not to religions.
I feel so much clarity now. Feels good.😀

[Danioover9000]

@martins name

14 minutes ago, martins name said:

This is a temporary solution but one that I support. The key is to have a good filter for the people coming in and make it an attractive option for the right people. Eventually, all nations will decline, which is a good thing. But at some point, everyone will have to address the problem. But at that point the will have been improvements in culture, tech, education, and politics, which might make a solution emerge naturally. We just need a string of short-term solutions until we get there.

It depends on the type of immigrants. Poor immigrants from Muslim nations don't mix well with European nations. In Sweden, immigrants from the Middle East as a group do none of the things you listed. They strain public resources, have high unemployment, and commit lots of crimes.

There are almost no homeless in Sweden we still have a declining birthrate. The problem is less economic than you think. Nordic countries are proof of it. But economics is part of the problem.

Urbanization is the biggest contributor to the problem. Houses don't take up most land considering how much land there is in most countries. 

Otherwise, I like the list. thank you!

   Oh yes, Sweden has a big problem with middle eastern immigration. If I'm not mistaken, I think it was in the past the left party opened up boarders too quickly and started to abide by the EU rules concerning immigration. It also could be a cultural thing in Sweden, as the people there generally are friendly, as friendly as Americans, minus gun ownership, owning Nun Chucks or other policies regarding weapon possession. IMO they went stage green too quickly without a strong stage blue/orange foundation and enforcement arms to protect citizens, otherwise the criminal elements of some stage purple/red valuing immigrants won't feel so bold as to commit sexual assaults underground, in metros or bus stops, it got so bad that they instructed the female population there to wear this 'don't rape me', band. Sorry, but in the southern states of America, if rapey daves made a move on a hottie, and said hottie has a piece, she'd open fire, ask questions later, or someone else has a firearm they'd do something about it. Although yes there'd be crimes with gun ownership, some accidents and some intentional and annual/monthly with school shooters, the population with firearms as a culture, with ways to protect themselves actually self regulate enough that assailants think twice. But with Sweden it's strange...

   Another factor in my short list I should have added, is also poor diet and a decline in nutrition, in what we eat. Especially for men's health, quality of nutrition impacts sperm count and sperm production, so lower nutrition, sleep quality, fitness will make those younger to older men more infertile than if they took care of their nutritional needs, sleep and fitness then they'd be more fertile. Modern day western foods from industrial agriculture, especially in America is insanely low in quality, so much pesticides which erodes ground soil nutrients that remove trace minerals from veggies and fruits, said pesticides have this cocktail of chemicals that god knows how badly it could effect health and fitness, not to mention GMOs, sugar, salt, fat higher than necessary vitamins and minerals in green varieties and even the meats themselves. Particularly concerning is this estrogen to testosterone imbalance in those meats, dairy products, that make men overtime more effeminate and feminine due to low testosterone, and even some women more masculine due to some foods higher in testosterone.

[BlueOak]

31 minutes ago, martins name said:

There are almost no homeless in Sweden we still have a declining birthrate. The problem is less economic than you think. Nordic countries are proof of it. But economics is part of the problem.

Urbanization is the biggest contributor to the problem. Houses don't take up most land considering how much land there is in most countries. 

Otherwise, I like the list. thank you!

On one hand you say homeless or having a home the right size isn't a big factor, and on the other, you say it's a factor. Do you see the contradiction? Unless by urbanization you mean something other than less space or less competition for resources.

By not having a home at all you cannot have a family. I can't put it any simpler than that. Its a direct contributor to birthrate.
By filling the land with traditional homes space isn't well used, if instead traditional homes were redefined in the public mind to be large, healthy, efficient apartments, more people would feel like they had a family home in less space. They wouldn't be waiting until they had that large cottage or large house, they'd see examples of it in their media, and their culture reinforcing it.

Dismissing economic concerns is outright wrong. You don't have kids by choice if you don't have the money, unless it's by accident. Few people out there are thinking I know let's have kids, and hope I can pay for them, just somehow out of nowhere. There is less traditional pressure to have kids because people are less affected by it, they are however still very influenced and affected by financial concerns.

Yes it's just one factor, out of several, but it's there.
Sweden is really skewing your view on this, its one of the most socially advanced countries on the planet.

Edited December 4, 2023 by BlueOak