How do we Solve Birthrate crisis?

[martins name]

The birth rate in western/westernized nations have fallen well below replacement level. 

Immigration is an unsustainable solution in the long run even if one argues that it's good short term to decrease human population to sustainable levels.

What is causing the problem?

What is the solution?

 

My current thinking is that it's mostly an effect of urbanization, less on non-blue values. Japan is the proof of this, being blue/orange while having one of the steepest birthrate falls in the world. The solution seems no where in sight. I've thought that the solution would come from cultural developments once cultures feel the pain from the demographics collapse. But since western countries are taping over the problem with immigration it seems we won't feel the problem as a demographics collapse but as a cultural collapse. Thus western culture won't feel the need adress the birthrate problem. 

[Bobby_2021]

More work life balance.

The current corporate 9-5 jobs makes it harder to have kids. You have to restructure work to integrate family and kids.

OR.

Implement Sharia law inshallah. 

[Dauntment]

Need Holistic & Systems Thinking

@Bobby_2021 says "work life balance", you could tie that to the growing Wealth disparity as well. Social Media may be playing a role in warping people's  dating expectations. (which could be tied to) People seem to be more oriented towards pleasure/short term. It could be said that "men are getting weak" or the possible trends from "passport bros" & MGTWO/Red pill, etc.

My Guess:

What is causing the problem? : People are not motivated/incentivized/want strongly enough to commit to a monogamous long term relationship to build a life together that they enjoy & enables them to bring children into.

Solution? : Education reform + Stronger benefits of marriage (w/ some revisioning to cushion some men getting r*ped financially/family-wise) + Cultural shift/evolution

[Thought Art]

“Aliens”

[Danioover9000]

@martins name

2 hours ago, martins name said:

The birth rate in western/westernized nations have fallen well below replacement level. 

Immigration is an unsustainable solution in the long run even if one argues that it's good short term to decrease human population to sustainable levels.

What is causing the problem?

What is the solution?

 

My current thinking is that it's mostly an effect of urbanization, less on non-blue values. Japan is the proof of this, being blue/orange while having one of the steepest birthrate falls in the world. The solution seems no where in sight. I've thought that the solution would come from cultural developments once cultures feel the pain from the demographics collapse. But since western countries are taping over the problem with immigration it seems we won't feel the problem as a demographics collapse but as a cultural collapse. Thus western culture won't feel the need adress the birthrate problem. 

   I agree, yet this issue is a combinatory issue. What westernized countries need to do is have a limited form of democracy, more along the lines of the Roman empire republic, and find ways of restricting down feminism and egalitarianism paired with ideological capitalism and neoliberalism. Main reasoning is ever since the start of feminism, of the suffrage movement, time goes on and feminism just keeps on borrowing from other civil rights movements, and pushes women to be more individualistic and act like men, act more rational, and be more careers and business orientated as opposed to feminine and relationships/family orientated. After the counter culture movement, feminism and egalitarianism flourished a little bit, but at the expense of indoctrinating the female population to be less relationship/family geared, to being more careers orientated, which also increases occupation of jobs men would normally take. Combined with capitalism and long working hours, say in Japan, males have much less times to date and to work on building relations with their potential spouses, which adds to the birthrate decline in a westernized native country, which then makes that country desire more outsourcing of human labor from theocratic countries that can reproduce it's numbers. Combined with feminism, this makes women who are feminists have an inflated expectation of their ideal male partners, which decreases their potential dating poll.

   Also contributing to this whole decline in birthrates is a loose restriction on abortion and too much usage of sex methods that prevent pregnancy, and this whole PUA/hyper sexual liberation movement, which devalues that act of sex and sexual intercourse instead of it being a sacred act, it's now a typical Friday night activity, another excess of stage orange individualism and capitalism and transactional relationships instead of seeing relationships as something sacred and spiritual, same with marriage ever since the separation of church and state, and state divorce and church divorce, women with committment issues and who are careers and business orientated see divorce as gaining more money from their husbands but also as an easy way out of a marriage when the act of marriage is the unification of two polar opposites until death do them apart, through the darkest valleys and the brightest beaches. With higher divorce rates comes higher rates of single parent households, which is much worse for a developing child that's inherit the dysfunctional relations of his father and mother's imperfect marriage.

[Danioover9000]

@Dauntment

56 minutes ago, Dauntment said:

Need Holistic & Systems Thinking

@Bobby_2021 says "work life balance", you could tie that to the growing Wealth disparity as well. Social Media may be playing a role in warping people's  dating expectations. (which could be tied to) People seem to be more oriented towards pleasure/short term. It could be said that "men are getting weak" or the possible trends from "passport bros" & MGTWO/Red pill, etc.

My Guess:

What is causing the problem? : People are not motivated/incentivized/want strongly enough to commit to a monogamous long term relationship to build a life together that they enjoy & enables them to bring children into.

Solution? : Education reform + Stronger benefits of marriage (w/ some revisioning to cushion some men getting r*ped financially/family-wise) + Cultural shift/evolution

   Exactly. Agree on the causation although there are much more to it, and agree that education and some reform is needed, again probably several more solutions needed as well.

[Danioover9000]

@Bobby_2021

2 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

More work life balance.

The current corporate 9-5 jobs makes it harder to have kids. You have to restructure work to integrate family and kids.

OR.

Implement Sharia law inshallah. 

   True, but also in some places like in China, Korea and Japan they have the 9-9-6 job routine there(work from 9:00 am to 9:00pm 6 days a week.). Also brutal schooling and education curriculums incentivizing corporate and capitalism ideology over knowledge and well-being, again Japan's schooling system is great example of this toxic work culture permeating even in schools.  

[Bobby_2021]

2 hours ago, Dauntment said:

that to the growing Wealth disparity as wel

Wealth disparity is not so much of a problem if everyone is guaranteed a basic sustenance.

The wealthy folks would lose the power of their wealth if that happens since now they cannot command the brokies around. The problems with inequality would solve itself.

It's all comes from restructuring work. Work should be made more flexible, and possibly remote, if possible so that people can spend more time with their family.

But that's the last thing corporations would approve of. They crave control over their slaves uuuhm employees. 

[martins name]

@Bobby_2021 @Danioover9000 @Dauntment Thank you all these are some good points. Many small streams make a river. I discredited the idea of modern & post-modern values having much of an impact because of Japan and South Korea, but perhaps I was wrong in thinking they were the same problem. In Japan the problem might be more because of overworking and in Europe it's more of a cultural thing. Still, in both cases, urbanization plays a big role that hasn't been addressed here, and even if we were to wind culture back, we still lose to urbanization. The only way seems to be forward, to a new culture never seen before.

Worst case scenario, perhaps as the world population drops there would be more resources and land per person. At some level, life would be so abundant and pleasant that people would want to bring more people into it. And the world population would become stable at that level. That time would only come after China, India, and Africa have gone through the same development and urbanization as the Westernized world.

[Parallax Mind]

@martins namewhat's wrong with immigration? The best way to move up the Spiral is to immigrate to a higher country. This will move the world up in turn. Besides it's not a competition of which race can have the most numbers. White people have already lost that race. Plus the world doesn't need more people.

I live comfortably and I'm white but we aren't going to have kids because I don't need more problems in my life. Kids bring joy but also alot of problems. I let other parents have that responsibility. 

Think about what a hassle it is to be alive? Finding your life purpose and all this shit. I'm saving my kids the trouble and wish my parents would have done the same. 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Parallax Mind

[Danioover9000]

@Parallax Mind

2 minutes ago, Parallax Mind said:

@martins namewhat's wrong with immigration? The best way to move up the Spiral is to immigrate to a higher country. This will move the world up in turn. Besides it's not a competition of which race can have the most numbers. White people have already lost that race. Plus the world doesn't need more people. 

   A combination of too much immigration erodes the stage blue values and moral framework of that nation/country, and too much competitors in a given field of work and career.

[Parallax Mind]

6 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Parallax Mind

   A combination of too much immigration erodes the stage blue values and moral framework of that nation/country, and too much competitors in a given field of work and career.

Or the immigrants could move up the Spiral. Immigrants move to a country because they recognize it's advantages like being higher on the Spiral. The reason they flee a country because they see how badly it's run I doubt they would want to turn theory new home into the old one. Plus the checks and balances in stage orange and green countries don't allow it to slide back down on the Spiral. 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Parallax Mind

[PurpleTree]

8 minutes ago, Parallax Mind said:

Or the immigrants could move up the Spiral. Immigrants move to a country because they recognize it's advantages like being higher on the Spiral. The reason they flee a country because they see how badly it's run I doubt they would want to turn theory new home into the old one. Plus the checks and balances in stage orange and green countries don't allow it to slide back down on the Spiral. 

Look at france, sweden etc

they seem to get less stable

now right wingers won in netherlands because of immigration 

Edited December 2, 2023 by PurpleTree

[martins name]

20 minutes ago, Parallax Mind said:

what's wrong with immigration

What @PurpleTree said.

I'm a Swede. Last year we had the second-highest amount of bombings per capita in the world after Mexico. The resentment from the class divide and the inevitable nationalist backlash/stage blue regression are enough to make it a bad idea.

It's not about race or skin color, it's about culture. If people of Swedish culture don't have enough children to survive, then Swedish culture will die. This is unless immigrants get integrated at the same pace as new immigrants come, which, at the pace immigration has happened in Europe, has not happened, and doesn't seem realistic.

Some amount of immigration is a good thing but when it's so much that it creates whole isolated communities of immigrants that don't integrate it's a problem.

I'm guessing you are American? If you were European you would likely have a different view on this matter.

22 minutes ago, Parallax Mind said:

Plus the checks and balances in stage orange and green countries don't allow it to slide back down on the Spiral.

This is just wrong, European countries are regressing to blue, and nationalist parties are growing like weed. Once stage blue politicians get the power they will run the country as stage blue does.

1 hour ago, Parallax Mind said:

Immigrants move to a country because they recognize it's advantages like being higher on the Spiral.

This is mostly wrong. It can be fixed through better vetting, but most current immigration from the third world is economic. If all the stage orange/green people fled the Middle East, it would never move out of blue. Brain drain is a problem.
 

 

35 minutes ago, Parallax Mind said:

I live comfortably and I'm white but we aren't going to have kids because I don't need more problems in my life. Kids bring joy but also alot of problems. I let other parents have that responsibility. 

Think about what a hassle it is to be alive? Finding your life purpose and all this shit. I'm saving my kids the trouble and wish my parents would have done the same. 

This is a psychological pathology. One that I also share, and is okay to have, but it should not be the basis of policy. Not everyone has to have kids like not everyone has to be an electrition. I'm not an electrician, not everyone has to be one, but they are needed for a society to function.

Also, if we have it your way and Western culture dies whatever culture standing will have to figure this problem out themselves at some point. My position is that we should start to address the problem right away and figure out the cultural technologies that at some point will be required for everyone and lead the world by example.

 

[Buck Edwards]

58 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

now right wingers won in netherlands because of immigration 

I'm not from Europe. What immigration? Are the right wingers immigrants? 

[martins name]

Just now, Buck Edwards said:

I'm not from Europe. What immigration? Are the right wingers immigrants? 

High immigration from the Middle East for decades is creating a stage-blue backlash among the native population. It's a fucking disaster, can't believe you haven't heard of this. Is this a prank?
It's because of wars in the Middle East. It creates asylum seekers and the EU has laws that we must accept some amount of asylum seekers. This is combined with politicians thinking this is a great opportunity to solve demographic collapse. Something many of these idiots have come to regret, Angela Merkle for example.

[Buck Edwards]

15 minutes ago, martins name said:

High immigration from the Middle East for decades is creating a stage-blue backlash among the native population. It's a fucking disaster, can't believe you haven't heard of this. Is this a prank?
It's because of wars in the Middle East. It creates asylum seekers and the EU has laws that we must accept some amount of asylum seekers. This is combined with politicians thinking this is a great opportunity to solve demographic collapse. Something many of these idiots have come to regret, Angela Merkle for example.

I have heard about it. But I  only know tidbits of that. The other guy said that right wingers won because of immigration. I guess what he meant is that right wingers won because the general public voted for them out of backlash against immigration. I took it as they were voted because they were immigrants. Sorry I was confused. 

[Buck Edwards]

19 minutes ago, martins name said:

High immigration from the Middle East for decades is creating a stage-blue backlash among the native population. It's a fucking disaster, can't believe you haven't heard of this. Is this a prank?
It's because of wars in the Middle East. It creates asylum seekers and the EU has laws that we must accept some amount of asylum seekers. This is combined with politicians thinking this is a great opportunity to solve demographic collapse. Something many of these idiots have come to regret, Angela Merkle for example.

But the politicians are correct in a way. How are you gonna fill in the blanks? You need people to grow an economy though. Look at the states. Immigration contributes to the economy. 

 

[PurpleTree]

57 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

But the politicians are correct in a way. How are you gonna fill in the blanks? You need people to grow an economy though. Look at the states. Immigration contributes to the economy. 

 

The economy can’t grow forever 

[martins name]

1 hour ago, Buck Edwards said:

Immigration contributes to the economy.

Depends on the level of education and intelligence of the immigrants. The way immigration has been handled in Sweden it has been an economic burden and is projected to continue being so. We would have to liberalize significantly and lower welfare amount to press people to get jobs, which wouldn't be necessary without immigration. The economy isn't everything. Companies and bankers love employment numbers, but what about the growing criminality, lowered trust, systematic welfare fraud by criminal clans and growing hatred for Swedes among second-generation immigrants?

Also, these people are mostly Muslim which is a uniquely resistant religion to reform and socially regressive. In parts of Sweden now women don't feel safe walking around without a veil. When these people get real political power and form their own political identity outside of just voting for the left for economic reasons I fear what might happen. People think Swedish nationalists are bad. Just wait.

The foundation of order that the economy is built on is being seriously damaged. National resilience is weakened. A strong economy is holding the country together. Sometimes disasters happen though and the metal of a society is tested. The next 100 years are going to be very challenging.

My opinion is that we should've let the demographics get bad to press the culture and politics to figure out a way to be sustainable.

I get what you are saying, and on a simplistic level, it seems like a common-sense solution. But the reality of how this has actually turned out in Europe looks like a disaster.

Edited December 2, 2023 by martins name