A Most Authentic Message

[jse]

Paul Hedderman tells it like it is.  Forget "the ego".  Forget spiritual pursuits, which are hijacked by the self and just strengthen our illusions.
If we could allow this message to get past our egoic defenses, it will save us a life of needless suffering.

 

 

[electroBeam]

@jse "Forget spiritual pursuits" seems to me to be a misinterpretation. 99% of people in the world aren't seeking, how far has that gotten them. 

as Paul said at 29:20 you are still action figures, you still need to do work. 

[Martin123]

@jse didnt watch the video but what I see many people delude themselves by is even using the idea of the ego.

I mean... isnt the whole spirituality thing abouy ego being an illusion? It never existed. So dont pretend like it does right now.

When people say "ego is sneaky" or "this is my ego talking not me" "this is egoic and this is loving" im like... what? Who's the ego? What is it doing? How can it ever speak if it doesnt exist?

There is only thte souls journey, not egoic va nonegoic consciousness. The battle doesnt exist. 

Now my humble opinion is that god is individualized beyond the ego within enlightenment. That is why I say soul's journey. If you are of a different opinion simply replace soul with god or whatever the heck you want.

But if you delete the word ego from your vocabulary, you will do yourself a big favor. Its like instant enlightenment.

[Shin]

Ego is just easier to say that "my thoughts patterns" or "conditioned mind", that's the only reason we use this word, we're fucking lazy

To me there is no real entity, just beliefs that cloud reality and makes you think you're separated from all other things.
The job is to debunk these beliefs/thoughts, that's all what is really needed, it feels painful because we think we ARE these thoughts, but these are just thoughts, it's abstractions and projections, it feels real, the same way as a dream.

That's interesting because yersterday I was daydreaming, and a very sad imaginary moment came to my mind, and I was about to cry when I suddenly realized what was happening, I instantly laughed and there was no sadness anymore.
Now this is what's happening worlwide, it's fantasy on top of fantasy on top of fantasy, the emotions are very real, but the content is pure fiction, it's all bullshit, there is no reason to be sad about anything.

[Gopackgo]

That lecture is genius. 

You are the ego. YOU ARE. That which is reading this and possibly reacting to this sentence. You are the thought. You are a thought that arises between other sensations and lays ownership over all else. That is what the message is when people say stop seeking. It is meant that every single thought is the self. Even the thought that says, I want the ego dead, or I want the ego merged or anything else. It is an endless cycle. I need to seek. I need to meditate. I'm almost there. I'm almost enlightened. Do this. Every thought that arises, recognize that the thought is it. Then recognize that the recognition is it. Then recognize that the recognition is it. Repeat. When the frustration arises, recognize that the frustration is it. Then recognize that the fear is it. Then recognize that the fear is uncontrollable. Then recognize that the recognition isn't it. It is all arising out of nowhere.

If this doesn't sound right, or if it makes negative emotions arise, that's the entry point. Why is the arising emotion negative? It's because you are it. You can't ever accept what is because it is not what you want. It's not psychic powers. It's not a superior feeling of peace. There is nothing there to control either of those things. It is all arising in nothing. There is nothing you can do to recognize this because "you"  is the problem. You are projecting yourself onto a situation that will never be what you want because you don't exist. You cant claim ownership over your fellow thoughts, because you are one of the thoughts. So, the seeker arising is the ego. It is the thing that doesn't exist. You are the reason that you cant see that now never ends. Only stories arise. None of them are real because real is now, and its not real, it is just the rising projection occurring in the nothing that thinks its you. You has no control over whether you are recognized because you are an output and not an input. You arise after other perceptions and you claim that you are the cause but you are the reaction. You are one of the perceptions. Every single thought arising is the story that needs to be recognized to recognize that nothing ever happens. None of them belong to you, they just are. You assuming anything else is assuming duality. LOL. You are it.

[Martin123]

@Shin The confusion this causes to so many people is insane. You could literally save thousands of peoples hours of meditation if you just told them.
Heyy. Forget about ego. It does not exist. 
There is experience
There is belief in lack/limiting beliefs that are untrue
Sort through that
and you will se the truth
because you will aligne yourself with it.
Done
Donezoe
THe end

The whole spiritual journey
In 3 sentences
CONGRATUFUCKINGLATIONS

BUT NOO NOOO
I NEED TO GO ON A RETREAT DUDE IM TOO EGOIC =D.

[Echoes]

Of course we can run around telling people "you are enlightened, don't worry. There is nothing to do, there is no ego!" But that is of no use for anyone. What people forget is that even Paul hedderman was on a spiritual journey with all the typical traps and delusions. Would he get to the point of liberation without all this, just because someone told him "The ego is not real! It's done, don't worry"? I doubt it. All the people telling you that meditation is useless and there is nothing to do, mostly did the same thing for YEARS. So you can never say if all this didn't play a role in their awakening.

[Martin123]

@Echoes I dont know if youre reacting to the video or my comment.
Anywho if it is to my comment then it isn't accurate at all. You sort out these beliefs through practices such as meditation.

[Gopackgo]

@Echoes  He is saying that you have no choice in the matter. The recognition happens when the recognition happens. I came to seeking after the first recognition (awakening). Between the happening of recognition and beginning seeking, there were more recognition than there were when I started seeking. The problem is that seeking assumes there is something you need. Maybe it is needed to make the mind circulate until it ceases, but think about it. If the you assumes there is something that is needed in order to be something, else, you are assuming duality.

This is the thing, you aren't the cause of your seeking, you are the reaction. Something happens that causes seeking. So if a me says I am seeking in order to find out what I already am, it is the reaction claiming to be the cause. There's no real choice in the matter. It just is, but the recognition will arise or not. The non-seeker message is only attempting to recognize that. Seeking is a reaction, it's not a cause. The you never causes anything. It is an output in response to a cause, not the cause itself.

[Echoes]

@Martin123 It was just a general statement to this topic.

@Gopackgo Yes, I agree. But once you hear of this topic "Enlightenment" and know that there is something like absolute truth, you can't help but try to "seek" it, to find out what it is. Ultimately it is a pull from no-thing, no active pursuit from the Ego. But every form of activity in this regard can be viewed as seeking: Reading this forum, watching videos of Leo, self-inquiry. Ultimately there is no need for self-inquiry, because you are already it, but all this stuff has it's place at some stage of the path. In the end all has to be dropped, and in some cases like Eckhart Tolle it's just happening without all the seeking stuff. But who are we to say that it hasn't it's place and is not essential for many people? Personally, I found it to be very useful to have a conceptual and psychological understanding of non-duality and the ego's mechanisms, and to inquire and meditate. But some people may not need it. In the end it either happens or not.

 

[Gopackgo]

@Echoes It's not right or wrong, its just the same circular path.  The me always thinks something is needed. It just does. Its the same thing arising over and over, and it can be recognized. We first seek science to understand reality. We think that once we get there something will be whole. That doesn't work. We hear of enlightenment (or just naturally awaken) We don't know what it is be we need it. It is the same me arising, but this arising carries different content. Then the me arises with the content that in order to transcend itself, something amazing will occur. This is a fitting assumption for me to make. It trades stories of unhappiness for stories of enlightenment. Same book different chapter. The stories, ironically, are a way to distract it from its ever-present experience. When this is recognized, it is seen that the same me driving the seeking is the same me that has every been. The content of me changes over and over, and at no point is the me ever going to get it. Even if it was something to get, the me can never understand it, because it occurs outside of it. It is the same thought arising over and over and claiming ownership of all other arisings that arose before it. The me uses these stories to pull itself out of the eternal present (which is the only place me can be recognized.) What type of being experiences an eternal present?

[Echoes]

@Gopackgo Yes, but then why even bother about any non-duality content? Imagine a person that views Leo's video for example and then just waits for a realization without any further investigation into the topic. Not knowing anything about the mechanisms of thought, emotion, the trickiness and capability of ones own self-deception. "Ordinary" Humans are seeking happiness in the future; The seeker is seeking enlightenment in the future. But the seeker of enlightenment comes across many teachers who point to the traps and illusory attempt of the persons desire. Without an interest in the topic or without a longing for truth, one would maybe never come to this guidance and realizations. 

If I tell a friend who never heard about spirituality "Hey, there is only the eternal presence and you don't exist. So to stop suffering just stop pretending to be a human and just BE" I don't think it had any impact at all. Some guidance and pointers are required for most IMO.

[Gopackgo]

@Echoes We are basically saying the same thing. I'm saying that when you are triggered to tell a friend about spirituality, he either will or will not seek in reaction to your thought arising. He will have the thought that he is choosing it, but it will have either been recognized or ignored with no choice. He may be lost in a story triggered by another story, and this will cause him not to recognize it. It just happens. There hasnt been a long period of seeking for me, but it was an intense reaction to a recognition that I do not exist. It is a long line of reactions that only could have happened the way they happened. None of the recognitions have been from conceptual transfer, they have been in direct experience. They have arisen, they have not been acquired. "I" has no ownership over them as much as he wants to claim them. What I am saying is ironic, because I am writing this post in order to trigger others as if I could cause recognition. It is very much about seeing the circular nature of me, but when it happens, it just arises. It is arising in nothing when it arises. The me attaches to it after it arises and says: "Ah, look at what I have acquired!" So by all means, tell friends, but just don't think that you are choosing to tell them. The impulse arises, and happens. Then the me arises and says: "good thing that I had that thought that arose out of nowhere, and decided to speak it to my friend." The friend says: "good thing my friends thought arose, it was said, and then hearing arose followed by a thought that I needed what he has found." Me is the thought arising after what arises that claims ownership that these teachers are trying to point out. There is no other way for me to describe it. People will seek if the proper things arise in the long chain of reactions. The illusion is that they are the cause and not the reaction. LOL. It is so funny. Its all retroactive storymaking that results in identification, apparently.

[zazed]

Didn't watch more than 10m of the vid. Maybe later tonight, at least the content seems interesting, the dude is not totally wrong.

I see some examples of straw man fallacies here and there and in the video.
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Basically, looking purely at the content of some posts, and even the video, everyone is is basically saying the same thing.
But using different words.

First i feel ego is being redefined to something that it is not to many people on these forums. Then that new definition is being poked holes in (=straw man). In some posts in this thread, even seeking is redefined as only looking for enlightenment (=straw man). While Leo clearly said it was inward searching and examining or studying one's mind. 
Most of the posts in this topic, and the original video, are just saying the exact same things as what teachers such as Leo or Eckhart Tolle, or even the Dalai Lama and Thich Nhat Hanh are saying. But they just use different words for certain concepts.

 

What is called the self, is often called the ego by many teachers. Tho ego is more specific, cause it concerns mainly the mental aspects of our self. To me the ego is the mind completely. The seeker is seeking enlightenment in the NOW, never in the future. Getting rid of the ego and becoming enlightened, it means fully accepting reality as it is happening, being pure being, and not attaching to thought. That i believe also what it means to most spiritual teachers, at least that's how i read their texts.

Meditation is a great tool in reducing the thoughts to almost zero. After that one is just a mind with few thoughts, so to become enlightened from there, true acceptance is needed. But realizing/accepting pure being is a lot easier, if your mind is not constantly shouting at you "sex, sex, love, want, food, food, cold, warm, work, career, promotion!" That's what they often call letting the water become still, so you can see the bottom of the lake. That is the purpose of meditation, nothing more. Good luck becoming enlightened, if you don't train the monkey mind at least a little, but its not impossible, some people can just have an "aha" moment.

Additionally, training the monkey mind, is a reward on its own. A mind trained by meditation has more self-control, even without enlightenment.

Meditation can also become pure being. I believe if one is enlightened, and there are no direct things that need attention. One will just sit down and be present. This may look like "meditation", but it is just being without doing, because, what else is there left to do for a Buddha in his spare time?


But are we now really going to discuss the meaning of English words here ? Words that were originally poorly translated from languages such as Chinese, Japanese and certain Indian dialects, by English scholars with zero spiritual insight.. Should we put up a sticky dictionary topic with detailed word meanings, lest people get confused ?

It's just a word, it can mean different things, we are smart, we can hold these conflicting meanings in our mind, its ok...
Isn't it more helpful to find similarities, rather than things to argue about?

[Gopackgo]

@zazed Theres no argument. But is there was we wouldn't have a choice about it. Just like you don't have a choice to train the monkey mind. You do it or you don't do it. It arises or it doesn't arise. I am not saying anything other that it is glaringly obvious that thoughts arise from nothing. How can one claim ownership over nothing. You don't have a thought or a sensation. It arises in you out of nothing. You are the nothing, not the thoughts that arise. Maybe think about it like being the nothing between the arising sensations. No one can be responsible for what arises spontaneously out of nothing. 

Say there is a choice made. The nothing has 3 thoughts arising: Choice 1, Choice 2, and the chooser. It is a continual arising of thoughts, none different than the other. Well.. There is one thought thats different, the last thought which is the "chooser". It says wow.. these 2 other thoughts arose from nothing. I obviously created those other thoughts, and now I am choosing this one. That must be correct. Ignore the fact that "I", the thought, also rose out of nothing after those other thoughts arose out of nothing.

Every single thought arises out of nothing. Every single sensation arises out of nothing. "I" is just the perpetual subsequent thought arising out of nothing that is assuming that it created itself or the other thoughts. It is the thought of identification. Lol. It's hilarious. A thought arises about "tomorrow", then "I" arises as a stream of thoughts claiming ownership over the Tomorrow story. Of course nothing ever happens, It all takes place in the same place, but the assumption thought connected to I arises and says, "obviously it is all going to arise in a different place than right here". But it all doesn't happen in the same place.. It is all a story projection. That is what these teachers are saying. Their method (which they didnt choose) is to ask questions to induce arising thoughts in "others" which may spark a recognition. It is everything arising in nothing. The best part is that my "me" thinks it understands, and is still trying to assert ownership. This is something that it could never understand, but  all it knows is separate ownership. Nothing cant control nothing. It's nothing. All of these words are just springing out of nothing...

Edited April 3, 2017 by Gopackgo

[jse]

11 hours ago, electroBeam said:

@jse "Forget spiritual pursuits" seems to me to be a misinterpretation. 99% of people in the world aren't seeking, how far has that gotten them.

For "99%" of people in the world, their religion is $$$.
"Forget spiritual pursuits" - emphasis being on the pursuit  of anything, worthwhile or otherwise.

[jse]

5 hours ago, Martin123 said:

But if you delete the word ego from your vocabulary, you will do yourself a big favor. Its like instant enlightenment.

This. 

[jse]

3 hours ago, Echoes said:

Of course we can run around telling people "you are enlightened, don't worry. There is nothing to do, there is no ego!" But that is of no use for anyone. What people forget is that even Paul hedderman was on a spiritual journey with all the typical traps and delusions. Would he get to the point of liberation without all this, just because someone told him "The ego is not real! It's done, don't worry"? I doubt it.

Good point.  At 31:18 Paul says:

Quote

"Paul, I want you to do the dishes while I'm out".  So I said, alright.
(gf) came back, the dishes weren't done, and she said "Paul, why didn't you do the dishes?"
"There is no Paul. There are no dishes."
And she said "fuck you... do the dishes."

 

[zazed]

Let's just say mindfulness meditation causes the amount of thoughts to arise to lessen. This has basically been proven, and is easily verified if you do it an hour. It allows you to look inward and "see what you are not", as the dude says. It also allows you to "see what you are humbly", another term the dude used. As the guy in the video, who seems to be enlightened, says. we need to "just believe it, i believe it deeply". But here i am, still selfing, i'm aware of me selfing even, as i am typing this essentially self-defensive article, protecting my practice. I know it, and still i'm posting it trying to prove my point. Hilarious, it's probably gone as you read this, until "being" stumbles upon it again, if i would be enlightened at least (i'll think of other things i could've said, as i'm watching tv).

He also beautifully stated, he "walked lightly on difficult terrain". Meaning basically he is living in the Now and is not attaching to his thoughts about a certain topic, he just let's it all wash over him. It also prolly means he has few thoughts about it even, his mind is rather still. He also says he drops his thoughts like a burden, as he "will walk out there and it will all be gone". That implies living fully in the present. That seems like enlightenment. It's a good cause for laughing, it is hilarious (i've had being being being experiences, where i burst out laughing like he did).

Funny, he also claims to have meditated a lot, that means at least the practice has been helpful into clearing his mind enough to be open to the awareness. That amount of meditation does have an effect on the brain, it has been proven by mri studies on people meditating in an mri machine, vs normal people. That is why Leo is documenting his process. Leo said in a video, quoting from poor memory here: "an enlightened Buddha is in a poor position to teach how to become enlightened, because he probably has forgotten about, and has no need for, the details." I agree.

He had his enlightenment experience, and yes after that it's all meaningless, just words on pieces of paper. He is right, if you're already enlightened, you don't need to do nothing. Being just becomes being. There is nothing left to learn if you realize there is nothing left to learn, because there is no you to learn it anymore, and you have transformed into "being being being". That's enlightenment, my brain believes right now, and i believe after seeing 50m so far, that the dude has it. I still need to stop believing and realize i'm already "being being being", which is the great paradox, and the ultimate joke of spiritual practice. That's why he burst out laughing. Doing the mental juggling is easy, but i'm definitively not at that stage yet.

But yeah, there is no i choosing to meditate, i just do. It's just reality, it's already "being being meditating".
Doesn't mean it's not helpful. Doesn't mean it can't help me realize what the dude has realized, and actually live it in hopefully a short time.

wow, this was actually helping me understand deeper, while writing, thanks for the topic guys! 

[Gopackgo]

@jse Lol. I'm married. That part made me laugh. She asks me to do something, and I feel that that thing wont be arising anytime soon. Then somehow, it fucking arises. See. Unpredictable.