I still can’t wrap my mind around homosexuality

[HMD]

On 23/11/2023 at 7:12 PM, Thought Art said:

There are apes that exist that have lots of sex. It's not just use for procreation but for fun, socializing and even making up after fights. These apes are a good example that sex isn't as simple as "To has babes"

@Thought ArtAgain, that’s just the secondary purpose of sex. Mainly, primarily, and first of all it’s for ensuring the sperm reaches the egg. The physiology of the sexual organs says this. You don’t need to ask any scientist to see this. And the whole animal kingdom is not homosexual. Just a small portion of a few species. 
 

So, from that standpoint homosexuality is a deviation. And we accept it by presenting various rationalisations and also because it doesn’t cause much harm. It shows our loving nature. 
 

But this is just a milder for of Love when compared to accepting more extreme things live pedophiles and rapists. If we are growing spiritually then we have to be willing to Love these things as well. Don’t we? 
 

Why do we draw the line at homosexuality? Because we are not Loving enough or spiritual enough? And if we have already grown past these things, then is spirituality actually good for society? 

[HMD]

@Lauritz Bewer Whatever it is, it’s still way better than an arbitrary, inaccurate, and ignorant judgement. 

On 23/11/2023 at 7:17 PM, Lauritz Bewer said:

your perspective is really narrow and just childish honestly. do some research. 

 

[HMD]

On 23/11/2023 at 10:58 PM, kenway said:

Yes, because it accelerates the arrival of a post-sex society.

And to be clear, a post-sex society isn't marked by a society that no longer has sex - quite the opposite.

It's a society that regards sex as trivial and of little importance. Sex, specifically recreational sex in all its forms, would be no different from going to the cinema, visiting a restaurant, or playing golf. Funny little things we do for fun, but nothing more than that.

Gone is the stigma and taboo. It's just sex. Nothing more.

@kenwayYes, I was thinking following that similar line yesterday. It was what osho was trying to teach. Once we get past this whole sex thing we can move forward to higher stuff as a society. Then we can move past even more radical stuff as well. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by HMD

[BlueOak]

10 hours ago, MuadDib said:

@HMD Have you ever heard women whining that "All the good ones are either taken or gay"?
Even if thinking in evolutionary terms, women LOVE gay guys, guys LOVE lesbian action. There is an advantage to having SOME gay genes. Some people just get a fabulous amount.
This is the running theory anyway.
This is very easy to wrap your head around.
 

 

Gay people are essential. Mammals and many other animals change gender preference based on the availability of resources, mates, and room for having kids. The urge to have sex and for companionship through life never goes away, it just reforms.

We have too many people on planet Earth fighting over too few resources, and finding a partner has become harder than ever, thanks to a hyperfocus on 80's styled almost materialism of the top 10%. Where looks, income, false videos, and a fake image is projected, expectations are raised far too high from reality. That and the isolation caused by the current division in culture played to by media forces for money, and technological forms of communication create isolation and the breakdown of relationships across the board (moreover they never form), meaning people just want sex as a passing release rather than a meaningful pairing or partnership.

If the OP really wanted more men in families, he'd completely ignore looking at the symptoms of the effects of social pressures, and look at the social pressures. He'd work on ways to keep families together, have a frank conversation about population levels, nullify technological impacts on putting across unrealistic expectations from dating sites, show people how to do more with less, and socialize more which leads to more relationships naturally, encourage politicians and news media to not focus on division to making a living, and encourage people to live together in harmony rather than competition.

But of course, nobody's going to do that. BTW all that would help people who were gay too, so this isn't an anti-gay post, as I said at the top, gay people are essential and the number of gay people increasing is a natural biological imperative.

Edited November 26, 2023 by BlueOak

[HMD]

@Princess Arabia Yes, it serves the bigger purpose. My problem is that we are drawing a line at homosexuality. 

[HMD]

@The0Self Okay, so can I say the same thing to you about rape? If you can’t wrap your mind around rape, you’re not using your imagination? 
You can argue rape and homosexuality are not the same and yes, they are not. But it’s just a matter of degree of deviation And the distinct meaning we attach to each one.

@Osaid Feet are more of my kink. 

@Carl-Richard It is! But we accept it. We accept gays as well. But that’s it. 

[HMD]

On 24/11/2023 at 0:54 PM, Salvijus said:

Body is intelligent. It knows what it needs to survive. You don't need to understand intellectually that it is time to go to sleep. Body knows it's time for sleep by itself and tells you. Same way body knows what to eat and when to eat it and how much to eat. The body tells you this info from moment to moment. Just the same way body knows with whom to reproduce to give rise to healthy offsprings. Body will tell you very clearly what to go after.

Based on this you could draw conclusions. Is your body an intelligent being or no longer intelligent? Is your body feeling sleepless till 5am? Does your body crave food that has zero nutritional value? Does your body tell you to go after people that are not valid for reproduction? (Children, old people, your relatives... Animals, table Etc.) 

My belief theory is that people are becoming more and more distant from nature and more and more unnatural. Body has lost all sense of what it is supposed to desire to survive because it is losing its connection to nature. Living in fake environments. Breathing air conditioned air. Walking on concrete. Being bombarded with frequencies all the time that are not of this earth etc. 

@SalvijusYes, this makes a lot of sense. We have deviated from “nature”, whatever that is. And we have accepted it as the new normal. But in truth there is no deviation and there is no normal. But to have a sense if reality we have to create this dualistic distinction. This is a never ending, infinite cycle between normal and abnormal (or deviation). 

Edited November 26, 2023 by HMD

[HMD]

20 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Because you're not gay.

@Schizophonia I am bi. 

[HMD]

@BlueOak Yes, it’s obvious that homosexuality serves a purpose. Some people are born gay and they get no arousal from the opposite gender. And some (asexual) don’t get any arousal at all! 
 

But my point is that this is a deviation from the norm. We accept this deviation. We can’t fix the complex problems that gave rise to pseudo homosexuality, like technological impacts and unreasonable standards, so we accept what ensues as a consequence.

[lostingenosmaze]

1 hour ago, HMD said:

@Princess Arabia Yes, it serves the bigger purpose. My problem is that we are drawing a line at homosexuality. 

Who is drawing the line at homosexuality?

[HMD]

@lostingenosmaze most of the western society

[BlueOak]

7 hours ago, HMD said:

@BlueOak Yes, it’s obvious that homosexuality serves a purpose. Some people are born gay and they get no arousal from the opposite gender. And some (asexual) don’t get any arousal at all! 
 

But my point is that this is a deviation from the norm. We accept this deviation. We can’t fix the complex problems that gave rise to pseudo homosexuality, like technological impacts and unreasonable standards, so we accept what ensues as a consequence.

My point was that is the norm. It is exactly what is supposed to happen given the current social pressures. if more people could afford a family there would be more families for example. Gay or straight for that matter, but when more people are forced to consider food/energy prices just to survive then it's an obvious issue blocking childbirth or adoption. - Then a poster (not you) tells me ah they just don't want it enough, and I sit here and facepalm. Not to vilify that response as it's a common one, but it denies or ignores all the current data in front of them to fit an ideological view, which doesn't ultimately empower, or solve, because the same problems will still be in front of the person that were there before. If not that person then the hundred million others in that exact same circumstance, because we are talking a wide group of people deciding whether they will have a family or not. Picture the broad scale when you are considering this issue.

If the answer you arrive at is you can't do anything anyway, I get it, maybe you can't. Plenty of things I observe every day I can do nothing about, except make them known or link X to Y in the hopes enough people say yeah I see that problem more clearly now. If the answer is you will focus on one aspect of all those factors I listed, then you can do something, if you have or can assemble the time/energy/resources and inclination to achieve something. Maybe you could form a website entirely dedicated to family and allow people to form, manage, and care for a family in the current climate. Pulling all these issues and pressures people face into the light and then giving solutions for them, rather than having people ignore and pretend they don't exist. Allow space for a family to exist and it will.

If X is true Y happens. If you don't want so much Y, lessen X.

As i've said before, personally, i'd like 52% of people to be gay, so population numbers are forced to reduce, because any method I could suggest to achieve that otherwise would not be palatable to anyone, and understandably so.

Edited November 26, 2023 by BlueOak

[The0Self]

7 hours ago, HMD said:

@The0Self Okay, so can I say the same thing to you about rape? If you can’t wrap your mind around rape, you’re not using your imagination? 

Duh?

[HMD]

@BlueOak Makes sense. But homosexuality as a population control mechanism? We won’t have the control when it becomes too much. 

[The0Self]

1 hour ago, HMD said:

@BlueOak Makes sense. But homosexuality as a population control mechanism? We won’t have the control when it becomes too much. 

You do realize many if not most men aren’t attracted to males at all right? As in sex with men for those guys would be less fulfilling than masturbation, by a mile.

[BlueOak]

3 hours ago, HMD said:

@BlueOak Makes sense. But homosexuality as a population control mechanism? We won’t have the control when it becomes too much. 

We don't control who is gay or not directly.

As i've tried to tell you, gender preference is a natural changing factor in mammals and other species that operate socially. A natural correction, due to environmental factors usually, competition, lack of resources, lack of food, shelter, whatever. We like to think of ourselves as above or separate from animals, but we aren't, we still have these biological drives and influences inside of us. People need companionship, they need sexual desires satisfied, they don't control what they are attracted to that's all biological/chemical, and to repeat it's the most natural thing in the world.

The resources or space available are not sufficient for the people living there to have families.

I made a very simple observation in Japan for example. Have you seen some of the spaces people live in? They can't fit one person in let alone a family. This is an easily demonstrated and direct example of what I am talking about.
 

Sure i'm giving you an extreme example, but people are living in this. They live in cyber cafes too, or tiny hotels with just a computer or a bed. If you take this example and apply it to energy, food, competition over a ridiculously small 10% of partners over dating sites, work hours vs life balance being way out of wack, *insert everything I've already spoken about*, such as space in many countries you get the results we are talking about. 

@HMD

Edited November 26, 2023 by BlueOak

[PurpleTree]

On 25.11.2023 at 1:43 PM, Schizophonia said:

Because you're not gay.

Or because you’re gay and suppressing it

 

[Adrian colby]

On 26/11/2023 at 9:05 AM, HMD said:

@Adrian colbyDo you see the contradiction in your statement brother? 
 

That’s what I am saying, why are we okay with universe experiencing itself in this way (homosexuality) and not in other ways (cannibalism). 
 

If you say that because it imposes on others or hurts them, then again why draw the line here? Homosexuals impose themselves on the beliefs of conservatives and Radical religious people. Now you may say it’s not a physical threat, to which I say that survival is not physical. 

Are you getting me? I am talking about something deeper, and not asking anyone to justify homosexuality to me. I am a bisexual and have been for the past 5 years. So, I have no race in the horse, so to speak, on either side. Infact, if I was biased it would be towards the liberal end, but I am not. 

Sorry, this is a long reply

 

It’s only a contradiction if you take those few examples in isolation. you  need to understand that they’re part of a larger system and that they can impact the larger system in varying degrees. The degree to which they impact that system determines whether it is allowed or not .Society is a collective of individuals and all those individuals need to cooperate in order to hold that society together. It’s like a decision of cooperation to become a larger entity which holds itself together with rules, boundaries and limitations .Every individual in the society is different. There’s no problem with that. They go about their business, living their lives as they see fit provided that they don’t impose on others or prevent others from living their lives as they see fit because other different people have their purpose within that society. acceptance and understanding of each individuals differences is key to a cooperative society. Everyone is vastly different and that is critical for society because those differences offer points of view that create a higher vantage point when synthesised together. If Points of view were all completely similar , nobody would be able to see the larger picture and would only have access to a fraction of reality. When you have a set of individuals who don’t accept differences, or impose on others or prevent others from living their lives as they see fit, this disturbs the balance of that society holding itself together. The society cannot progress if individuals who impose on or prevent others Increases and throws the balance off to the point that people start living in fear and stop cooperating with one another. that society cannot progress because it is no longer cooperation with itself. It is fighting within itself and tearing itself apart. the very nature of living in a finite reality means that there are rules, boundaries and limitations that hold that reality together, just the same as there are rules, boundaries and limitations within the smaller sections that we have within that reality like humanity, like countries, like societies, like companies, like communities. Take into consideration, the analogy of the human body. If we take a human as an individual they are constructed of many different cells many different organs many different hormonal systems. They are all different and have different purposes, but they work together cooperatively to collectively create the entire ‘functional’ human being. If a bunch of those cells decide to impose on the cells beside them or prevent the cells beside them from doing things that they’re supposed to be doing (they have the inherent ability to do that (decisions or choices) and they can do that up to a certain point! what if that grows and goes over a tipping point disturbing the balance? the body becomes dysfunctional or dies. the rules, boundaries and limitations of the finite human form start to fall apart. When cells grow out of control and are not kept in line by the immune system, they take over killing the human and themselves too. We call that cancer. so you need to understand that if you allow things like cannibalism or paedophilia free rein in a society to the point that it is normalised (those being an imposition on another persons life, ) that can destabilise a society, not just directly, but indirectly as well, through fear. Homosexuality is not the same thing. homosexuality is not imposing on or preventing another person from living as they see fit. homosexuality is simply an attraction to a person of the same sex. being as they are, expressing as they are provided it’s consentual. they’re not imposing on or preventing other people from living their lives as they see fit. You need to understand the larger context of the system. this is what you’re not getting. you’re taking something in isolation and not taking into consideration how it would affect the larger system.

You’re arguing equality out of context and making it sound like cognitive dissonants. You need to expand your view to the larger picture.

 

There is only one thing that is truly in existence, and that is the absolute . When it creates reality, it doesn’t create individual things in isolation. There is no such thing as an individual reality. Reality is relative. when an object is created or a form is created it does not exist in isolation. it exists relative to the space around it, so they’re always two things. That is the nature of reality. form relative to other form with the mind making a distinction of the boundary between the two so they can exist as if independent. The whole thing is an entire system of cooperation. If a form were to push beyond the boundaries of what it was relative to, It would collapse back into the absolute ( potential or chaos). The same rules and structures are mirrored throughout the entire universe, and throughout the mechanism of the mind of infinite consciousness. And it works in the same way in the structure of a society, the many different diverse and varied, make up the one. Because the many are finite, they are required to cooperate. they cannot impose on, prevent or dismiss one another or the collective entity that is known as humanity will fall apart. To truly understand this requires unconditional love and understanding.so ‘other’ needs to be accepted. 

You can have compassion for a cannibal or a paedophile . you can love them unconditionally and endeavour to understand them in an attempt to curtail their behaviour and stop them imposing on others. to understand the psychology or mentality behind it and work with them to find a solution that doesn’t involve violation another’s boundaries. It’s very easy to hate someone and stop them from doing something by being coercive, but it is ultimately better in the long run to fully understand that persons predicament from their point of view. They are ultimately responsible for their own behaviour and their own psychology and their own whims so it must be them to make the decision not to impose on others. Coercing a person is forcing them where cooperating with them is allowing them to make the decision by themselves with a little help and guidance. This is the idea behind restorative justice which seems to be having a better effect on the reduction of reoffenders where the current criminal justice system and punitive system is not offering any solutions to rehabilitation, or the personal improvement of the inmates relative to their society. If we endeavour to understand and study the homosexual, we find that they are not a threat to anyone. we can of course discuss the individuals personality and the way that they behave within a society. I’m fully aware that there are a lot of people in the LGBT and gay community who are absolutely horrifically rude and self-centred people, but my assumption about this is that it is a backlash against the way that the community has been treated and dismissed in the past. There is a level of underlying anger still there that hasn’t been resolved. But you could say the same about any minority group that gets dismissed. The question is do they impose on others, or are they simply just being themselves and keeping to themselves. That’s your boundary that you’re looking at that should not be crossed if society is to hold it self together.
 

PS; homosexuals are not imposing themselves on religious people. They’re making a statement that religious people don’t accept they exist as they are. Religious people are the ones doing the act of complaining and demanding the right to dismiss their existence as being valid because it doesn’t fit with their beliefs. they are refusing to accept that there is diversity within a society. Those beliefs are assumptions based on what they’ve been told or indoctrinated with. I understand they’re trying to hold their own collective culture together but it’s based on a misunderstanding and actually segregate them from the rest of society instead of including them as a community within it. Part of reality is that it changes all the time. The universe doesn’t stand still. they can try to maintain the status quo but refusing to adapt to a changing environment or changing larger society will result in their own atrophy. Part of moving from one state to another is making decisions whether to improve or devolve . Although change is slow, we are trying to direct ourselves towards improving our society and being more inclusive and accepting of others. This does not mean that it is going to fall apart. This means that it is going to change and become more accepting and cooperative with the advantage of More, points of view, and experiences to synthesise higher insights and vantage points from.  Cooperative collectives, make more progress.

 

going backwards, becoming separated or staying in the status quo is a failure to adapt to an ever changing environment. that is what will cause societal dissolution. 

[An young being]

@Adrian colby , thank you for the detailed and open minded reply. You have saved a lot of time for me as my reply was supposed to be in similar lines. Here are some more similar points to ponder:

1. Open mindedness alone cannot create a better society, but it's an important factor in the advancement of the same. It has to be combined with compassion, love or other characters of selflessness. For example, imagine you are a judge in a court of law. When we are dealing with a rapist, pedophile, murderer etc. , we can punish them for the welfare of the society and at the same time, be open minded and compassionate towards them for not being in control of their desires, circumstances, upbringing etc. This can even lead to better alternative punishments for the same.

2. Homosexuality doesn't hurt the society in a major way, whereas things like pedophilia and cannibalism do hurt others in extreme magnitudes. That's why lines are drawn based on the magnitudes of suffering they bring. Nobody exactly knows how much suffering each act brings. That's an important reason why every country has their unique set of laws, while open mindedness and compassion also do play a role.

3. Even if accepting homosexuality brings lot of mental suffering to the closed minded societies, we can't argue much about it, because sex is accepted as a basic need for human beings in most societies. Prohibiting homosexuality would be similar to not allowing anyone to practice your own religion, simply because you hate any religion other than the one you follow or worried about people getting converted to the new religion. To be fair, it's much worse than that.

Edited November 27, 2023 by An young being

[nhoktinvt]

gay people simply slay people