A pro Isreal perspective

[Parallax Mind]

I see it's popular to condemn Isreal and I feel this is wrong (esp young Liberal people). I think Sam Harris and David Pakman offer persuasive reasons to support Isreal. They can give you an insight into why most world leaders also support Isreal. Definitely worth a listen if you are interested in the subject.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Parallax Mind

[BlueOak]

Israel is dropping bombs on itself, in every way you'd like to imagine that word. It is causing violence for itself, and on itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_absolutism - Is no better than moral equivalency.

When you go through tragedy, the worst possible thing you can do is act on that emotion immediately. You sit down, work through it and come up with a strategy that serves you not only now but in the future. Men call it domesticating their emotions, not ignoring them but not living under their thumb either. There were four or five options that were more logical than this, which I thought of in 5 minutes, let alone a group of intelligent people could do with time. Instead Israel chose the most extreme unilateral action from the get-go, and is now locked into a course. (Unless they finally engage their mind not emotion).

Palestinians will likely no longer exist in Gaza because of the actions of their leadership. Look into the mirror and consider very carefully what being surrounded by enemies, while occupying Palestinian land in Gaza will do to Israel in the coming decades. Do it as logically as you can. Taking into account America keeps moving rightwing or at least isolationist, likely eventually aligning with autocracy. Iran is with BRICS, so your other potential partners can't back you in this act as you'd need them to. Regardless Russia's capacity to project power is diminished greatly for a couple of decades.

Occupation cannot just go away. It remains a sticking issue permanently.
 

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by BlueOak

[Parallax Mind]

You should know that you can't seperate emotions from logic that easily. People always say they are acting from logic while their enemies are acting on emotion. You could argue that Hammas is acting more on emotion then also. Isreal can't take the moral high ground when Hammas has no morals (as per Sam Harris). 

[BlueOak]

11 minutes ago, Parallax Mind said:

You should know that you can't seperate emotions from logic that easily. People always say they are acting from logic while their enemies are acting on emotion. You could argue that Hammas is acting more on emotion then also. Isreal can't take the moral high ground when Hammas has no morals (as per Sam Harris). 

Nothing in my post was saying Hamas had done anything positive for itself or its people. If you read it I said their leadership's actions in starting this wave of violence had led to their likely removal from Gaza.

The entire post was reflecting on Israel, if you want my emotional response, it's to turn off the TV and let the situation play out. Withdraw all military support or intervention from either side, and let the region normalize entirely on its own. This is what is going to happen, as i've tried to warn above, for the reasons i've given above. Instead of reflecting on that, or even considering the end result, you looked at Hamas and said they are bad too.

Well yes they are bad too. That won't help Israel. 

*And BTW to separate logic from emotion, you think through something. You don't go on your first emotional reaction. It is absolutely possible to engage logic over emotion, or with emotion as you suggest, or let emotion dictate logic. Part of the way you do this, is to get outside perspectives and listen to others.

Edited November 22, 2023 by BlueOak

[Danioover9000]

@Parallax Mind

1 minute ago, Parallax Mind said:

You should know that you can't seperate emotions from logic that easily. People always say they are acting from logic while their enemies are acting on emotion. You could argue that Hammas is acting more on emotion then also. Isreal can't take the moral high ground when Hammas has no morals (as per Sam Harris). 

   While Israel maybe more developed than Palestine, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran and other middle eastern countries, due to developmental factors like Spiral Dynamics stages of development, cognitive and moral development, personality types and traits, ego development, life experiences and other lines of development in Integral Theory, ideological beliefs indoctrinated by culture, family upbringing, information ecology like the news, videos, radio, TV programs, social media and other information intakes one consumes, as well as propaganda and narrative warfare which manufactures consent within the nation's citizenry, and self biases and preferences to state preferences and biases(the collective ego), Israel has this Zionism blind spot which creates an us versus them. This could not be helped due to the holocaust, and the Jewish culture having to be nomadic and travel from culture to culture until they finally settled down in where Israel is roughly 100 years ago. 80 years later this Israel/Palestinian conflict persists, 

   It's near impossible to stop Israel on the day of HAMAs attack, and the following few days. That's like telling Americans who just saw a couple of planes crash into the twin towers to remain calm, and not give into state wide emotional rage, remain logical. That's just a deep denial of how emotions work, and actually a seeking for apathy instead of calmness.

[Danioover9000]

@BlueOak

31 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

Israel is dropping bombs on itself, in every way you'd like to imagine that word. It is causing violence for itself, and on itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_absolutism - Is no better than moral equivalency.

When you go through tragedy, the worst possible thing you can do is act on that emotion immediately. You sit down, work through it and come up with a strategy that serves you not only now but in the future. Men call it domesticating their emotions, not ignoring them but not living under their thumb either. There were four or five options that were more logical than this, which I thought of in 5 minutes, let alone a group of intelligent people could do with time. Instead Israel chose the most extreme unilateral action from the get-go, and is now locked into a course. (Unless they finally engage their mind not emotion).

Palestinians will likely no longer exist in Gaza because of the actions of their leadership. Look into the mirror and consider very carefully what being surrounded by enemies, while occupying Palestinian land in Gaza will do to Israel in the coming decades. Do it as logically as you can. Taking into account America keeps moving rightwing or at least isolationist, likely eventually aligning with autocracy. Iran is with BRICS, so your other potential partners can't back you in this act as you'd need them to. Regardless Russia's capacity to project power is diminished greatly for a couple of decades.

Occupation cannot just go away. It remains a sticking issue permanently.
 

 

While Israel maybe more developed than Palestine, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran and other middle eastern countries, due to developmental factors like Spiral Dynamics stages of development, cognitive and moral development, personality types and traits, ego development, life experiences and other lines of development in Integral Theory, ideological beliefs indoctrinated by culture, family upbringing, information ecology like the news, videos, radio, TV programs, social media and other information intakes one consumes, as well as propaganda and narrative warfare which manufactures consent within the nation's citizenry, and self biases and preferences to state preferences and biases(the collective ego), Israel has this Zionism blind spot which creates an us versus them. This could not be helped due to the holocaust, and the Jewish culture having to be nomadic and travel from culture to culture until they finally settled down in where Israel is roughly 100 years ago. 80 years later this Israel/Palestinian conflict persists, 

   It's near impossible to stop Israel on the day of HAMAs attack, and the following few days. That's like telling Americans who just saw a couple of planes crash into the twin towers to remain calm, and not give into state wide emotional rage, remain logical. That's just a deep denial of how emotions work, and actually a seeking for apathy instead of calmness. The resulting cultural zeitgeist will happen regardless of your individual desire for the cultural zeitgeist not to happen, therefore Israel acting out of outrage, and wanting to take out HAMAs even if there's disproportionate lose of innocent life along the way is justified in their perspective, just like how Americans want revenge even if the death toll in Iraq between the soldiers and civilians, is many times higher than lose of American soldier life there., or the lose of life in 9/11. Despite the high numbers, at that moment it's justified in their perspective.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Danioover9000

[BlueOak]

45 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@BlueOak

While Israel maybe more developed than Palestine, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran and other middle eastern countries, due to developmental factors like Spiral Dynamics stages of development, cognitive and moral development, personality types and traits, ego development, life experiences and other lines of development in Integral Theory, ideological beliefs indoctrinated by culture, family upbringing, information ecology like the news, videos, radio, TV programs, social media and other information intakes one consumes, as well as propaganda and narrative warfare which manufactures consent within the nation's citizenry, and self biases and preferences to state preferences and biases(the collective ego), Israel has this Zionism blind spot which creates an us versus them. This could not be helped due to the holocaust, and the Jewish culture having to be nomadic and travel from culture to culture until they finally settled down in where Israel is roughly 100 years ago. 80 years later this Israel/Palestinian conflict persists, 

   It's near impossible to stop Israel on the day of HAMAs attack, and the following few days. That's like telling Americans who just saw a couple of planes crash into the twin towers to remain calm, and not give into state wide emotional rage, remain logical. That's just a deep denial of how emotions work, and actually a seeking for apathy instead of calmness.

Well let's take those two tragedies then.

America built a coalition, got international support from other countries, got some legitimacy for its actions internally and externally, talked to the world about why it was going to do what it was going to do. Planned a complex operation. Used other countries' specialties where they could, and went in with a multi-national force with a clear goal of ridding the world of a dangerous terrorist group, using as much force as required, and no more than that. They were the victims of a horrific attack like Israel were, and they used that political capital to form an alliance. They spoke to any potential allies in the region itself, even tried to empower them as an alternative to the threat they were going after, and prosecuted any soldiers of theirs committing war crimes for example. - This is what's called using your mind, while not ignoring your emotion. Even if diplomacy had utterly failed to form a coalition response, ATTEMPTING IT, allows you a lot more leeway with other countries. To be clear I don't live in America i was a young adult and 100% behind their initial first few years in that country, to this day even after all that's happened I would be again in favor of America going into Afghanistan (not Iraq)

Israel told people to get out, at least those that heard the message from a region with cut-off communications, gave a million people a couple of days to move down a road or two, then began to level an area and will now occupy/annex as part of their own country. Killing anyone or anything still in the region. Do you see the difference or the long-term effect or benefit of one over the other? Especially on the surrounding countries' relationships to Israel. America didn't have to remain bordered to Afghanistan either when it was all finished, they could just leave.

Perhaps instead remembering the uncomfortable truth that America decided to leave Afghanistan because of how difficult such a task is, having different motives in nation-building, but the same end result to highlight. Israel is closer to the territory they wish to occupy, ethnic cleansing it of population, but surrounded by many more enemies, and reliant on an outside power to carry out these actions. They rely entirely on America to protect them from the results of any long occupation and ethnic cleansing from external powers like Iran. Which is a dumb idea long term if it wasn't clear from everything i've tried to highlight.

My goal is honestly trying to make people think of the wider situation here, considering as much as they are willing to.  Focusing entirely on the present/future also to keep it focused.

*You added a bit more to the post but the overall message is the same. Its very true that my want for something to change barely ever affects the outcome of something, but 'we still keep trying like fools' as they say :). I also wanted to say the summary of why the bias is as strong as it is, was appreciated for understanding's sake.

Edited November 22, 2023 by BlueOak

[lina]

I listened to this first video and what I understood so far is that Sam Harris thinks Israel is more moral because Palestinians support Jihadists whose religion and culture contribute to a 'nihilistic death cult'.. 

In my opinion, this just reflects a misunderstanding of how Palestinians think. It's true that some religious people value dying to become a 'martyr' according to; possibly what could be a skewed belief--- but realistically speaking that strictly happens when they're forced to choose between a  continuous state of oppression, humiliation or between death. Palestinians are humans after all, and even if they believe in some ideology that glorifies 'martyrdom', their natural primary human instinct is to preserve their lives, and the lives of their loved ones.

It's only extreme dire circumstances that might counteract that, not an ideology. An ideology might support their innate desire to break off oppression by becoming completely fearless of death, but it will not turn death to become the actual goal. 

Extremism is a result of continuous oppression, dehumanization and injustice. Even for Hamas according to their charter, they are fighting Zionists because to them they're occupiers. They are not doing this because 'they hate Jews and can't wait to become a martyr'.

We all agree Hamas is not doing much to secure their citizens, but you also have to mention that Israel restricts the entry of building materials and wouldn't even allow bomb shelter materials in. Palestinians should be allowed first to have an actual state with a decent army before being compared "morally" with Israel. It's a an unequal situation because one side is having their boot on top of the other. 
 

Edited November 23, 2023 by lina

[zazen]

@BlueOak Well articulated.

@lina Nicely written. Sam Harris is correct in saying Islamism is a virus, but he wrongly conflates a lot with it and misunderstands the Muslim world which is funny as he's written a book on extremism with Majid Nawaz who was a ex-Islamist radical.

The difference between Palestine/Hamas and ISIS is that Hamas are a resistance movement that use terrorist tactics, with the goal being localised to their homeland. ISIS is a terrorist movement with the goal of Islamic globalism - all lands. Hamas are defending their homeland, ISIS aspire to dominate all lands. The former is a defensive movement at its core but with terrorist elements and tactics, the latter is a dominating expansionist movement with a radical interpretation of Islam at its core and terrorism as its main strategy rather than just a tool in the toolbox of tactics.

Every idea can become a ideology which can ferment extremist strains of itself. Islamist's are violent because human nature can be violent. That can take expression through any culture, context or on any continent. Nature doesn't change, the lens through which it unfolds does - the lens, vessel and human through which nature is nurtured.

Its easy to assume that once someone progresses through the stages of Spiral Dynamics, similar to a child maturing into an adult, they are immune to reverting to childlike behaviors or regressing physically like Benjamin Button. However, psychologically, such regression is still possible. People can be like children frozen in adult bodies, and behave animalistically whilst encased in human form. Humans are like Russian dolls that have a beast deep down within that can be visited.They can do the needful when needed to in order to survive.

The developed world otherizes groups they see as undeveloped yet don't see how they are capable of behaving in extreme ways they consider only undeveloped people capable of behaving in. They omit the regressive elements of human nature that revisit them and come in through the back door in unassuming ways. A lot of the time they’re not as moral or developed as they think, they're just in a position where they're safe enough to pretend to be.

Developed liberals can still have the capacity to terrorize and tribalize, they just terrorize and tribalize in the name of, for and around a different set of values. We can have stage green talking points and positions yet act those out through a stage red disposition and state of being. Likewise the US can have a white house and yet a black heart - the veneer doesn't always match the visceral.

Labels often confine us to the actions associated with those labels more than they liberate us.  Labels are like psychic chains, nationalities are like psychic cages and literal interpretations of religion act like psychic straitjackets. Each more confining, restricting and stubborn.

Now we are in a chicken or the egg situation where extreme terrorist elements exist. But is it that they are extreme innately or that circumstances made them so. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by zazen

[Lila9]

Palestinians never wanted peace with Israel, since the beginning of Israel's existence, even the most moderate leadership was pro terrorising innocent Israeli people with the purpose to get the entire land.

No matter how much Israel tried to have peace with Palestine, they always rejected it. 

This is enough to support Israel. It's not only a democracy, a light in the draknes of the middle east which indifferent to human rights are get violated by husband's towards their wives in the name of the religion, but a country which tried to have peace with its enemy, despite their hatred and antisemitism.

It's sad that many people in the west justify the horrible massacre by Hamas in Israel by the claim that this is because they are occupied.

People don't understabd what Hamas is and what are their goals, they even never bothered to read Hamas charter which openly expressing Muslim superiority and antisemitism.

When I read Hamas charter I was shocked that this actually what the west is protecting and justifying, awarengly, but mostly out of ignorance.

A short summary of Hamas Charter (from Wikipedia):

Quote

The original, 1988 version of the charter emphasize four main themes:

Destroying Israel and establishing an Islamic theocracy in Palestine is essential;

Unrestrained jihad is necessary to achieve this;

Negotiated resolutions of Jewish and Palestinian claims to the land are unacceptable;

Historical anti-semitic tropes that reinforce the goals.

The Covenant proclaims that Israel will exist until Islam obliterates it, and jihad against Jews is required until Judgement Day. Compromise over the land is forbidden. The documents promote holy war as divinely ordained, reject political solutions, and call for instilling these views in children.

Quotes from the charter translated from Arabic to English:

Goals of Hamas-

Quote

The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine. (Article 6)

 

On the destruction of Israel-

Quote

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it. (Preamble)

 

 

The Exclusive Moslem Nature of the Area:

Quote

 

The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession] consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it. (Article 11)

Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem wherever he may be.' (Article 13)

 

 

The Call to Jihad:

Quote

 

The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. (Article 15)

Ranks will close, fighters joining other fighters, and masses everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the call of duty, loudly proclaiming: 'Hail to Jihad!'. This cry will reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah's victory comes about. (Article 33)

 

 

Rejection of a Negotiated Peace Settlement:
 

Quote

 

[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. (Article 13)

 

 

Condemnation of the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty:
 

Quote

 

Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle [against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle. ...Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act. (Article 32)

 

Anti-Semitic Incitement:

Quote

 

The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him. (Article 7)

 

'The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money, they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions - which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ... and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it.' (Article 22)

 

Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'.' (Article 32) 'The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews.' (Article 32)

 

Sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter?wprov=sfla1

https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm

 

 

[Nivsch]

A perspective someone have when doesn't need anymore thrills to satisfy his stage red defficiency cravings.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

Palestinians never wanted peace with Israel, since the beginning of Israel's existence, even the most moderate leadership was pro terrorising innocent Israeli people with the purpose to get the entire land.

No matter how much Israel tried to have peace with Palestine, they always rejected it. 

This is enough to support Israel. It's not only a democracy, a light in the draknes of the middle east which indifferent to human rights are get violated by husband's towards their wives in the name of the religion, but a country which tried to have peace with its enemy, despite their hatred and antisemitism.

True. Since I'm 5 years old I hear that Israel offered the palestinians an independent state with 67' lines and east jerusalem their capital and they refuse.

 

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

It's sad that many people in the west justify the horrible massacre by Hamas in Israel by the claim that this is because they are occupied.

Even if they don't justified the massacre itself, they want to think the bad guy is good in his essence and as happens in many relationships the bad guy is much more exciting and apealing to them.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Nivsch

[jaylimix]

On 11/23/2023 at 3:44 AM, BlueOak said:

Israel is dropping bombs on itself, in every way you'd like to imagine that word. It is causing violence for itself, and on itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_absolutism - Is no better than moral equivalency.

When you go through tragedy, the worst possible thing you can do is act on that emotion immediately. You sit down, work through it and come up with a strategy that serves you not only now but in the future. 

 

It is just your opinion that Israel is "acting on emotion immediately".

How is calling on the air force to strike at rocket launchers firing thousands of rockets into your country "acting emotionally"?

Immediate action is neccessary and it is not emotional in this case.

As for boots going on the ground, without air support you are essentially signing the young men's death warrant.

As someone who is 37 years of age, I feel sad for these young men, most who are just 19-25 years old.

Booby traps, terrorists popping up in buildings/tunnels with rifles, RPGs and grenades.

Israelis have suffered enough and it saddens me to see more of them not able to live a long fulfilling live for a war forced upon them.

Edited November 24, 2023 by jaylimix

[jaylimix]

 

13 hours ago, lina said:

but realistically speaking that strictly happens when they're forced to choose between a  continuous state of oppression, humiliation or between death.
 

Gaza is not a hell hole like what you guys believe it to be, it is not a slum.

In fact it looks like a place where I can go for a vacation, beautiful beaches, nice restaurants.

People lives in nice apartments with air-conditioned and plaster ceilings, and you don't do plaster ceilings if you are dirt poor.

The Gazans have free reign to do whatever they want in their little nation, including building weaponry and terror tunnels.

Now if you are truly oppressed, can you build weaponry and terror tunnels?

Call it for what it is, a Blockade, and this is a self-fulfilling-reality.

Palestinians created this blockade because they won't stop smuggling in weaponry/munitions, blowing up buses, and stabbing people.

You need to cage up a group of wild beasts from killing you.

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1725959145868705792/pu/vid/avc1/576x1024/71p1VbolR6QkRsEq.mp4?tag=12

https://x.com/imshin/status/1718956513102881075?s=20

https://x.com/InaraZ219617/status/1726245223490023596?s=20

Look at this video below, ignore everything and look at the background for her house's plaster ceiling.

My fucking apartment has no plaster ceiling and her oppressed house has plaster ceiling!

Edited November 24, 2023 by jaylimix

[zazen]

20 hours ago, Lila9 said:

It's sad that many people in the west justify the horrible massacre by Hamas in Israel by the claim that this is because they are occupied.

People don't understabd what Hamas is and what are their goals, they even never bothered to read Hamas charter which openly expressing Muslim superiority and antisemitism.

Analyzing and understanding a act, doesn't mean justifying or approving it. The Western world, because it is developed and more rational naturally asks what is it that led to this attack, and they dig into its wider context which reveals the situation. Yes, Hamas's charter is extreme, thank you for sharing all that information.

20 hours ago, Lila9 said:

Sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter?wprov=sfla1

Within the same source you share you have left out the sections of 'Revised 2017 Charter' and 'Relevance of 1988 Charter in the early 21st century' which also states:  ''Ahmed Yousef, an adviser to Ismail Haniyeh (the senior political leader of Hamas), claimed that Hamas has changed its views over time since the charter was issued in 1988. In 2010 Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal stated that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons".

''30 years after releasing its founding charter, Hamas unveiled a revised version of the document that appears to soften the group's stance toward Israel. The major takeaway is that Hamas is open, at least in principle, to accepting the 1967 borders of a Palestinian state—a major sticking point in previous failed negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians. Its previous position had always been to call for the destruction of the state of Israel.'' - https://www.rand.org/pubs/commentary/2017/05/hamas-strategic-rebranding.html

It was wrong for Hamas to rise and form, but the reactionary current that gave rise to the wave of Hamas was that of the formation of Likud party. Hamas is the symptom, the wave on the sea - the cause and current within the sea that gave rise to it is the Likud party formed before it in 1973 with its founding stating it will not give the 'land from the river to the sea' any other sovereign authority ie Palestinians. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party

This would rightly be seen as the denial of the possibility of a Palestinian state and so in reaction extremer types of leadership could easily gain popularity against this. Hamas came to be in 1987, 14 years later and here we are.

If we take Hamas's charter seriously then we should also take the Likud parties seriously - and both state a one state is all there can be - with Hamas's inciting more violence of course.

If we forget about documents from decades ago and just look at the actions taken in more recent time instead. If Israel wanted a 2 state solution, why would they fill up the land that would be the Palestinians (West Bank) with far right orthodox Jews which would make it almost impossible as they would be the most resistant to leaving compared to more secular Jews. And if Israel did want a one state solution and to show the Palestinians that they would live well under Israeli leadership then why have they shown the opposite in the West Bank for example.

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by zazen

[BlueOak]

On 11/24/2023 at 2:06 AM, jaylimix said:

It is just your opinion that Israel is "acting on emotion immediately".

How is calling on the air force to strike at rocket launchers firing thousands of rockets into your country "acting emotionally"?

Immediate action is neccessary and it is not emotional in this case.

As for boots going on the ground, without air support you are essentially signing the young men's death warrant.

As someone who is 37 years of age, I feel sad for these young men, most who are just 19-25 years old.

Booby traps, terrorists popping up in buildings/tunnels with rifles, RPGs and grenades.

Israelis have suffered enough and it saddens me to see more of them not able to live a long fulfilling live for a war forced upon them.

Because Israel took the most extreme position first, which in any crisis is an indication of acting on emotion. Israel spent no time thinking through the problem, they acted immediately. If America hadn't got to delay them for a few days, there was a very real chance Israel's borders would have been overrun, or the death toll they experienced as a result of their actions would have been considerable.

Then you assume things. I wouldn't have put young mens boots on the ground in the first place, tanks in urban areas suck. Here are five better options:

1) Professional special forces soldiers with air support, covert raids to get the hostages - THEN if they must do what they are doing.

2) International coalition forces acting together, bringing in as many countries as possible, so the resulting political fallout is diminished and buffered. America is world-class at special forces raids and would have bent over backwards to help.

3) A local diplomatic effort, when it fails you can say to the surrounding countries, well we tried. They might even get one or two helping or more willing to. 

2) and 3) give you political legitimacy which means the world when you are surrounded by hostile neighbors, even just consulting them makes you seem more reasonable. Acting Unilaterally does the opposite.

4) No negoation. A slow ratcheting up of controlled pressure. Release the hostages or X happens. X happens. Then you say okay, Now Y is going to happen, you show power and control, using as much force as required and no more. This makes you seem in control and more reasonable, and also very threatening to those who cross you. Excessive uncontrolled violence just makes you seem irrational.

5) Occupation, without annihilation. Israel take the Palestinian people into their state and protect them. You give them a position in a federal or confederate form of government. Showing the complete opposite response, in a time they are very likely to want to cooperate given the insanity of what happened. Any Arab country that threatens you would then be threatening its own, and it wouldn't have the same danger or popular support. Using this period you completely eliminate Hamas's influence, with the help of those inside Palestine who would have supported getting to be part of 'their' and your state. - BTW I don't see a country on earth that wouldn't have bent over backward to help with this in many different ways, or condemned anyone opposing it given the situation.

6) *Add this to any of them. The political capital to eliminate Hamas's leadership was there. They could have used it and gotten rid of the head of the snake entirely either overtly or covertly.

Instead, Israel chose the most extreme action with no heed to what happens next. This option was always available if all else failed, but Israel picked it first. When it could have picked it any time.

What happens next is this. Israel occupies a territory. Gives all Arab nations in the region a reason to want to destroy them over the next 100 years, as the occupation won't end, and the memory of this will last generations. Even if just 10% of those in Gaza radicalize to violence, they've created 200,000 people ready to fight them. Iran stays aligned with BRICS. Russia has diminished anyway for the next 2 decades thanks to being crippled in Ukraine and stuck there on the border now, perhaps forever. This means Israel are reliant on America or a Hail Mary save from China in the coming decades. America is moving more isolationist, and China will be able to challenge its naval dominance directly.

However I don't think either country has the stomach to really fight Iran on the ground now, miles away from their own homelands, let alone as governments move more rightwing, and they have been for the last 2 decades. 

So they either pay China a heap of money/influence and get their backing, or Israel is going to be in a considerably worse position at the end of all this. The violence from one direction will be gone, but all the rest will be increased for certainly my and your lifetime.

war forced upon them. - No, wrong, they picked this response, entirely so. The action that happens after this is largely of their making, just like this action was largely of Hamas's making. Hamas's actions led to this, but the fallout of what happens next is Israel's choice. Israel making their living space into a prison led to Hamas carrying out this attack. The continued extremist rhetoric and violence action from Palestine and Iran led to that prison camp. In this case, each person acting in a way that brings division and violence is largely or has shared responsibility for the resulting effect.

Edited November 25, 2023 by BlueOak

[Nivsch]

On 24.11.2023 at 4:06 AM, jaylimix said:

It is just your opinion that Israel is "acting on emotion immediately".

How is calling on the air force to strike at rocket launchers firing thousands of rockets into your country "acting emotionally"?

Immediate action is neccessary and it is not emotional in this case.

As for boots going on the ground, without air support you are essentially signing the young men's death warrant.

As someone who is 37 years of age, I feel sad for these young men, most who are just 19-25 years old.

Booby traps, terrorists popping up in buildings/tunnels with rifles, RPGs and grenades.

Israelis have suffered enough and it saddens me to see more of them not able to live a long fulfilling live for a war forced upon them.

🎯 👍

[Nivsch]

@BlueOak Actually there were also security specialists who made the ground operation to delay and thats because of the claim @jaylimix explained quite well.

1. I think this is not so realistic. Almost only a deal can release the hostages and the only reason the deal exists is because of the military pressure.

2&3. Only diplomacy attitude has already been tried before the invasion.

4. Can you give an example? Interesting. 

I agree that we have to come from a position of force.

5. Israel has given tens of thousands of Gazaians work permissions in the south of Israel for years.

6. Netanyahu indeed has not invested enough in the geopolitical tools and he actually helped hamas to grow. So yes if you mean that Israel should use more the political tools as a complement to the military force I agree.

Prison camp of hamas upon its citizens. Gaza is an independent state from 2005 with no maritime and air ways this is right but for good reasons.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

   This whole situation is another example of why patriarchy exists, and why there should be enforcement arms and enforcement mechanisms that protects and enables laws and rights. Since Palestine doesn't have a big enough army itself, as a result of the 80 years of skirmishes, border wars, and the few wars between Israel versus Iran, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and other regions, and the ceasefire agreements, and Israel gaining territorial defensive positions and a growing army with some support from the west, it is far more powerful than Palestine, thus it can enforce it's standards and defend it's own agenda and self determine more than Palestinians.

   This is where egalitarianism, multiculturalism, and secularism fails miserably for Palestinians, as all they're left with is HAMAs, a terrorist group, which can maintain itself because there are Zionists in power in Israel that are pushing for that ethnostate.

[BlueOak]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@BlueOak Actually there were also security specialists who made the ground operation to delay and thats because of the claim @jaylimix explained quite well.

1. I think this is not so realistic. Almost only a deal can release the hostages and the only reason the deal exists is because of the military pressure.

2&3. Only diplomacy attitude has already been tried before the invasion.

4. Can you give an example? Interesting. 

I agree that we have to come from a position of force.

5. Israel has given tens of thousands of Gazaians work permissions in the south of Israel for years.

6. Netanyahu indeed has not invested enough in the geopolitical tools and he actually helped hamas to grow. So yes if you mean that Israel should use more the political tools as a complement to the military force I agree.

Prison camp of hamas upon its citizens. Gaza is an independent state from 2005 with no maritime and air ways this is right but for good reasons.

1 - People raid to recover hostages all the time, Europe has had to do it over and over and over again. You don't hear about the SAS much for example, because they do it so well. Those resources were at your disposal initially, you were not alone, thinking you were/are is part of the problem. Its understandable given your geo-political location. Hopefully Biden for example risking his political future, to stick with you, demonstrates otherwise. Heck every political party in the UK despite all the backlash is still with you.

6 - The heads of Hamas are safely in Qatar. At the start of this, when all the goodwill and sympathy was with Israel, they could have got the entire leadership. Either covertly without approval using international third parties, or with approval from Qatar. I think you all had that much sympathy and political capital because of what happened.

I meant that about 2 and 3 as well. They are about using the geopolitical options you had/have. American special forces taking out Hamas in Gaza was a definite option before this started, that's not diplomatic to Palestine, I'm talking about the rest of the world. You could have got back most of your hostages and then done whatever afterward. Look at how America went into Afghanistan at the head of a coalition, it got real international support for the same understandable reason you could have had. It used all the expertise it could from around the world, in everything from intelligence, logistics, covert operatives, and firepower from every other country willing to contribute. - Israel could have had all of that, and that's not even talking about what you could have got from the locality as well. - Sure America stayed too long in Afghanistan but it achieved its initial objective.

You say diplomacy has been tried. Not this kind. On the kinder end, you pick and support the most pro-Israeli arab you can find, you give them security, funding, and backing. Governments all over the globe have been doing this for decades, and sure at some point he's going to be targeted, but he's your man and you extend the best protection you can to him, he gets the aid, he gets the backing of the IDF when needs it. He improves Palestinian life and yes you are making that happen, restoring control, because that undermines the extremists while maintaining stability. An unstable anarchy leads to terrorism like this.

On the extreme end of this, its going in with a peacekeeping force, taking out Hamas, and installing a friendly government. I think you would have five or six countries willing to go that far with you at the very start of this, and that would have been a better option than what you could currently have. Those countries would have been partially responsible for maintaining that government and keeping it safe from outside threats. Even trying that and having it fail was a better option, because you could show the world, look we did all this with all your help, and look they still tore it down. Sure it would have got pushback but it was one possibility.

Part of diplomacy is making the effort anyway, even when you know its going to fail. With all these enemies around you, just reach out, make the effort and when it fails you turn around and say to the world, we tried, it didn't fail because of us. When Zelensky offered to come over, you should've grabbed that man and put him front and center. I know you might be gambling on the Russians instead, so if not him, get someone else there, but trying to do this alone is part of the problem you are facing and will face. People made trips to you and tried to do the political part for you, but it was all after the fact and lukewarm at best.

4) What's an example of pressure you can ratchet up?

A, No aid is coming in next week.
B, Three Hamas locations will be rubble by the end of the day. Increased as needed.
C, Next week you will be cut off from any water, then power, then communications, then whatever.
D, We are taking the north next week for ourselves.

You can have 15 steps in this list, that gradually increase the pressure. Then yes, there is the danger a terrorist executing a hostage, but that is a danger anyway, and hostages have been lost with this current approach. It also means the population has an opportunity, a real opportunity, with an incentive to give up Hamas entirely. You can then use the carrot, give us these Hamas leaders and we'll double the aid next month, we'll send medical support, or someone to get your water running. Give us the top man and we'll give you free passage out of Gaza for the next two months, whatever the specifics are not important, just replace them as appropriate. Only the gradual approach is important, as it gives time for people to think and time for the pressure to work.

5, I know. It was working. The average Palestinian that was employed in Israel is not the Iran-backed extremist lunatic that caused this wave of violence. The people earning money, and feeding their families, are not the ones throwing rockets at you.

Edited November 25, 2023 by BlueOak