3% obesity rate in Japan

[undeather]

1 hour ago, LSD-Rumi said:

@undeather What does the Y axis, represents in those diagrams?

Relative Risk of weight gain
 

[Alexop]

22 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

In my „western“ country around 11%

great to hear that man  there is hope.

 

 

[PurpleTree]

5 hours ago, Alexop said:

great to hear that man  there is hope.

 

 

Yea altough kids seem to be getting a bit fatter

[Alexop]

On 11/24/2023 at 9:06 AM, undeather said:

Again, obesity and diabetes are complex phenomena and wheat products play a role in it. 
People usually don't get fat because they overeat on pasta or white-bread. They get fat because they overconsume meals which are combinations of simple carbohydrates, high fat, high salt and some form of modified protein (Burger, Kepab, Fried meats, Lasagna, Soft drinks, Pizza...)

Whole grain wheat products actually lower obesity rates. 

 

Why do you still recommend wheat as healhy food? I would not recommend eating wheat, it is addictive, it can create autoimmune diseases, it behaves like sugar in the body. Even whole grain, still just sugar with a bit more fibers and protein. People will just eat like crazy, my gf eats it like crazy when she gets depressed. Maybe eating and treating it as a desert after a healthy meal so it doesn't spike the bloodsugar, and perceive it as a desert, a cheat, not healthy food.

[Tenebroso]

Lived in a western country my whole life, eat all the western junk. Yet I am very slender and lean, regardless of what I eat and I don't work out. Why?

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Tenebroso said:

Lived in a western country my whole life, eat all the western junk. Yet I am very slender and lean, regardless of what I eat and I don't work out. Why?

Ectomorph vs mesomorph vs endomorph body types.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Leo Gura

[LSD-Rumi]

3 hours ago, Tenebroso said:

Lived in a western country my whole life, eat all the western junk. Yet I am very slender and lean, regardless of what I eat and I don't work out. Why?

Higher metabolism rate. It doesn't mean you are healthy. A lot of "lean" people die of heart disease.

[undeather]

8 hours ago, Alexop said:

Why do you still recommend wheat as healhy food? I would not recommend eating wheat, it is addictive, it can create autoimmune diseases, it behaves like sugar in the body. Even whole grain, still just sugar with a bit more fibers and protein. People will just eat like crazy, my gf eats it like crazy when she gets depressed. Maybe eating and treating it as a desert after a healthy meal so it doesn't spike the bloodsugar, and perceive it as a desert, a cheat, not healthy food.

I particularly recommend whole wheat as a health food because it is. There is a very solid mechanistical basis, we have tons of epidemiological reserach and the randomized controlled data also looks extremely positive. 

Is it maybe possible, and please don't take this as a shot because it isn't, that you fell for those anti-wheat/carb authors and their pop-sci books? Anyone can sell you their idea of things, which doesn't automatically make it true. The link between autoimmune disease and wheat consumption is complicated and not a black or white issue. That wheat and particularly whole grain prodcuts "act" like sugar in the body is wrong - diabetics can improve in their peripheral insulin sensitivity and glucose kinetics by increasing their whole grain consumption. The most addicting foods are based on high glycaemic load AND high fat/salt content. I doubt your girlfriend eats plain spaghetti when she gets depressed. 

[Alexop]

26 minutes ago, undeather said:

I doubt your girlfriend eats plain spaghetti when she gets depressed. 

She eats crackers with butter, and pasta with sauce. Where are you going with this? it is like: I doubt you eat plain sugar, you eat milk chocolate.

 

And yes, I agree with Dr. Jason Fung, I still have to pick a side in the end. 

You eighter pick a side or do whatever everybody else does and have the same disastrous results like them.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Alexop

[undeather]

Quote

 

And yes, I agree with Dr. Jason Fung, I still have to pick a side in the end. 

You eighter pick a side or do whatever everybody else does and have the same disastrous results like them.

 

And that right there is kind of the problem. 
How would you know if what Dr. Fung is saying isn't, at least to some degree, complete nonsense? At some point, you have two possitibilites - you either spend hundreds of hours learning about scientific epistemiology, the current state of resarch and his particular claims about nutrition & physiology - or you kind of have to BELIEVE him. It's really easy to shape someones worldview with a MD and some flashy diagrams - even if it's based on no substance at all.

Fung is a cholesterol/sat.fat-denialist and this makes me particularly fuming, because it's one of my main areas of research. 

[Girzo]

7 hours ago, Tenebroso said:

Lived in a western country my whole life, eat all the western junk. Yet I am very slender and lean,

You can be lean on junk, just less healthy. Less kilos doesn't automatically mean healthier.

You most probably eat small portions compared to people who get fat. I try to eat healthy and I weight around 80 kg. Somedays it's hard to even eat enough food to not start loosing weight. Like its physically difficult to eat that much. And costly.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Girzo

[Alexop]

27 minutes ago, undeather said:

And that right there is kind of the problem. 
How would you know if what Dr. Fung is saying isn't, at least to some degree, complete nonsense? At some point, you have two possitibilites - you either spend hundreds of hours learning about scientific epistemiology, the current state of resarch and his particular claims about nutrition & physiology - or you kind of have to BELIEVE him. It's really easy to shape someones worldview with a MD and some flashy diagrams - even if it's based on no substance at all.

Fung is a cholesterol/sat.fat-denialist and this makes me particularly fuming, because it's one of my main areas of research. 

Nobody is absolutely right, I'll do more research into the colesterol part. I try to combine what people I find trustful said and create a more clear view of the thing. 

Unfortunately we all still believe people, you believe the people who did the studies you agree with. When you hop on a plane you believe that the engineers did a good job servicing the plane.

[undeather]

31 minutes ago, Alexop said:

Nobody is absolutely right, I'll do more research into the colesterol part. I try to combine what people I find trustful said and create a more clear view of the thing. 

Unfortunately we all still believe people, you believe the people who did the studies you agree with. When you hop on a plane you believe that the engineers did a good job servicing the plane.

When there are 300 studies on a certain topic and you pick out the ones which fit your your inherent bias, than that's bullshit. And sadly, this is what most of these health influeccers tend to do nowadays. They play under the cover of being scientifically sound, but once you actually take a closer look at their claims, it becomes psychotic. Nobody is absolutely right und the scientific method is not perfect - but I hope we can agree that in order to get the the closest picture of how reality actually works is to incorporate as much high quality information as possible. And not leave out the stuff we don't agree with!

I would not care if everything we know about nutrition is wrong and low-carb is actually the holy grail. In fact, that would be kinda cool because meat and cheese are freaking delicious. But I can assure you that Dr, Fung has a vested interest admitting the opposite. His whole business model is about denying and that alone should make you suspicious. I trust the people servicing the plane because there is an extreme, both personal and market driven incentive to not crash it. 


 

Edited November 27, 2023 by undeather

[Alexop]

45 minutes ago, undeather said:

When there are 300 studies on a certain topic and you pick out the ones which fit your your inherent bias, than that's bullshit. And sadly, this is what most of these health influeccers tend to do nowadays. They play under the cover of being scientifically sound, but once you actually take a closer look at their claims, it becomes psychotic. Nobody is absolutely right und the scientific method is not perfect - but I hope we can agree that in order to get the the closest picture of how reality actually works is to incorporate as much high quality information as possible. And not leave out the stuff we don't agree with!

I would not care if everything we know about nutrition is wrong and low-carb is actually the holy grail. In fact, that would be kinda cool because meat and cheese are freaking delicious. But I can assure you that Dr, Fung has a vested interest admitting the opposite. His whole business model is about denying and that alone should make you suspicious. I trust the people servicing the plane because there is an extreme, both personal and market driven incentive to not crash it. 


 

Ok, let's say I am a looser dude not working out in my 30s slowly gaining weight because my metabolism is slowing down, and the "I eat what I want and look at my belly" stops working, what should I do?

[The Renaissance Man]

9 hours ago, Tenebroso said:

Lived in a western country my whole life, eat all the western junk. Yet I am very slender and lean, regardless of what I eat and I don't work out. Why?

Calories in, calories out. You can eat shit and not gain weight as long as you don't eat more than you burn.

Try 1.5x the amount of food you eat and you'll see the magic of fatness.

[AerisVahnEphelia]

On 11/22/2023 at 1:50 PM, Alexop said:

All the nutrition debate nonsense in the west makes me mad.

We have the statistics: 3% obesity rate in Japan vs. over 30% in the west(Europe and US)

I am curious to hear somebody who lived many years in Japan and what is the food culture there. I believe that they eat mostly rice and veggies instead of wheat products, and less sugar in order to be in so good shape, not counting calories hahah.

They have a culture of blaming and shaming obesity. 

Which has great value.

Mix it with the need for people to be integrated and valued within the collective hive mind and you get a recipe for having to fit some rules to not be ostracized/survive.

If you're fat no one respect you.

If you do drugs, it's worst than if you have aids. 

You don't cross a car road where there is no green light.

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by AerisVahnEphelia

[AerisVahnEphelia]

On 11/23/2023 at 5:50 PM, Schizophonia said:

I can sense the anti wheat, sugar and fat brainwashing in your way of thinking about things lol.
Well the majority of people eat this regularly where I grew up and I saw very few obese people in middle school/high school and that's still the case today. And the only Japanese/Korean people I met had quite low muscle mass and seemed "slow", so I would personally avoid eating like them.

Yeh in our culture it's also based on shaming.

Really isn't much about food quality of course it's playing in it. Mental guide your intake and the quality of it.

[undeather]

2 hours ago, Alexop said:

Ok, let's say I am a looser dude not working out in my 30s slowly gaining weight because my metabolism is slowing down, and the "I eat what I want and look at my belly" stops working, what should I do?

Very roughly ...

- Start resistance training, increase lean muscle mass! 
- In general, move more! Take stairs instead of elevators, walk around a bit after work, implement an active lifestyle. 
- Center your meals around a wide variety of real, unprocessed & good quality ingredients
- Learn about caloric metabolism - caloric deficit and the approximate energy density of everyday food products
- Preperation of meals at home > Take away or delivery
- focus on adequate protein intake - 1,5-2g/kg/day
- Plants as the main source of protein - Protein intake should include fish and can include eggs, dairy & lean cuts of meat
- Shift to a more complex carbohydrate profile - minimize short chain carbs and increase intake of whole wheat products & especially vegetables
- Focus on plant-fats like nuts, seeds, avocados, extra virgin olive oil - go easy on saturated fat-sources
- Minimize or cut out empty calories like soft drinks - sugar alternatives (zero products) are fine in moderation
- Healthy snacking (fruits, dates, nuts...)
- The best diet is the one you can follow for the rest of your life - so don't try to be "perfect". Good enough is good enough. There is flexibility in all this - the most important thing is to get into a calorie deficit and be physically active. 

Edited November 27, 2023 by undeather

[The Renaissance Man]

35 minutes ago, undeather said:

Plants as the main source of protein

Why is that?

[undeather]

1 hour ago, The Renaissance Man said:

Why is that?

While animal protein sources tend to have a more benificial amino acid profile and great bioavailability, it also has been consistently associated with increased all cause mortality, esepecially at higher intake. That said, I think you need to take that research with a grain of salt since the effect sizes are usually small if you start to control for confounders. 

My personal view is that it's more likely a trade-off function than anything else. Plant-protein sources like beans, legumes or quinoa are among the healthiest foods out there, whcih not only come with a good quality protein, but also a wide array of complex carbohydrates, fiber and secondary plant compounds. Again and again, those foods have shown a significant risk reduction over a wide array of diseases (cardiovascular, cancer, autoimmune..). It's just a no-brainer to center your diet around those kind of foods. 

Fish is like the best of both worlds - but the problem with fish nowadays is pollution. That said, it still seems that fish intake is assocuiated with lower risk of dying!

Edited November 27, 2023 by undeather