Why Do Some Very Devoted People Never Become Enlightened

[Leo Gura]

Because they don't study all the traps, and inevitably fall into them.

Or they simply don't desire it enough.

[Gopackgo]

@Leo Gura I really and truly don't understand this. It seems that there is a contradiction. Me wants. That's all me does is desire. It can never see that what's around it is beautiful.  It is constantly grasping for more. I know people can't control what they want, but it just seems like a never-ending cycle. Don't you think that once you are conscious, wanting more always leads to more of the same striving? It doesn't know what it's striving for, but it assumes that it's death requires fireworks. What if it doesn't? I mean if it never existed, then how can it ever die? Is this not the same as assuming more money will bring happiness, only now assuming that whatever enlightenment is will do the trick? Worse, what if accepting that what is can't be known is the only barrier between an individual and seeing what really is. How can someone know what occurs outside of their perception? It is literally outside of known perception, where the unknown or nothing takes place. Anyways, I just don't see how a steady supply of desire can do anything other than fuel egoic thoughts. But there is definitely no certainty on this end. Just would like to hear your thoughts.

It's just so amazing to me man. Everything is literally arising out of nothing. The images, sounds and touch of whatever is outside of our perceptual field are rendering a reality in real time, and the kicker... it always happens in the same moment, always right now. I mean really. WTF could be outside of our perceptual field? No one can ever know. It is the literal unknown nothing outside of the known.  Where exactly does the answer lie outside of just observing it happen and having a recognition of the fact that all of it is you? What more can be desired? More "me" stories about what isnt in this moment but what could be with a little more wanting it?

Its a fuckin hologram with no input. I mean WTF

Edited April 4, 2017 by Gopackgo

[Prabhaker]

On 4/3/2017 at 4:42 AM, username said:

Why Do Some Very Devoted People Never Become Enlightened

You can be on the path of enlightenment for the wrong reasons. Look for the reasons why you seek:  What are your real reasons? Are you seeking truth? Rarely is a man seeking truth. You may be seeking happiness, but not truth. Happiness happens when truth is achieved. But if you are seeking happiness you cannot achieve truth, because happiness is a byproduct; you cannot achieve it directly, there is no way to it -- it comes via truth. If you reach the true, happiness will happen; it is a shadow, it comes with the truth. But if you seek happiness, then happiness is not possible and truth is missed.

Out of one hundred seekers, ninety-nine are for happiness. They have suffered -- life has been a misery, much pain: they are seeking the antidote, they are seeking the opposite.

If you seek happiness, how can you lose yourself? The seeker can never lose himself; the ego remains, you remain a point of reference.

Or you may not even be in search of happiness, there are even lower goals. You may be seeking to attain power, siddhi, you may be seeking a more egoistic state; then you will miss completely. There are even lower aims. And the lower the aim, the more possibility there is of missing because then you are more blind. You may be seeking for very ordinary reasons like seeking health. 

The lower the aim, the more you will miss, because the lower the aim, the more you are in the deep valley.

[Prabhaker]

21 hours ago, Martin123 said:

What is sex? It is god making love with himself. Can you get more divine than that?

Sex is just an opportunity for a higher transformation of life energy. As far as it goes it is alright, but when sex becomes the whole, when it becomes the sole outlet for life energy, then it becomes destructive.  It can only be the means, not the end. And means are meaningful only when the ends are achieved. The moment sex becomes the end, the spiritual dimension is lost.

If your energies are needed somewhere else, somewhere more blissful, sex will disappear. It is not that the energy is sublimated; it is not that you have done something to it. Rather, a new way toward greater bliss has opened for you and automatically, spontaneously, the energy begins to flow toward the new door.

This is so automatic, so spontaneous, that no positive action against sex is needed. Whenever you are doing anything against any energy it is negative. The real, positive action is not even connected with sex but is concerned with meditation. You will not even know that sex has gone. It has simply been absorbed by the new.

The reason why sex is so important to religious seekers is because it is so nonvoluntary, so compelling, so natural. It has become a criterion to know whether the life energy in a particular person has reached the divine. We cannot know directly that someone has encountered the divine. We can know directly that someone has transcended sex because we are acquainted with sex. Sex is so compulsive, so nonvoluntary, it is so great a force, that it cannot be transcended until someone has achieved the divine. 

You will encounter something so blissful that sex will become irrelevant and it will subside by itself. Now your energy will no longer flow in that direction. Energy always flows towards bliss. Because bliss appears in sex, energy flows toward it, but if you seek more bliss — a bliss that transcends sex, that goes beyond sex, a bliss that is more fulfilling, deeper, greater — then, by itself, energy will stop flowing towards sex. Go beyond, because still greater bliss awaits you. The journey must continue.

This does not mean that by dropping sex one will achieve the divine. The reverse is a fallacy. Anything done negatively with sex will not transform the energy. On the contrary, it will create a conflict within you that will be destructive.

[Flow With Life]

I'm no monk but I have considered the idea.

 

I think isolation from the world has certain advantages but also disadvantages. The obvious advantages are freedom from distractions which makes it easy to access high levels of concentration.

 

However, the disadvantage might be you don't see what you are detaching from.

 

One who has suffered depression will know true happiness when he sees it, more than one who has had a comfortable life.

 

The poor starving man will appreciate a banquet feast far more than a rich man who eats this way all the time.

 

A man who has struggled and chased after future happiness will see what detachment means and be able to let go, while the monk who has not done so will not understand what he is detaching from.

[Leo Gura]

21 hours ago, Gopackgo said:

@Leo Gura I really and truly don't understand this. It seems that there is a contradiction. Me wants. That's all me does is desire. It can never see that what's around it is beautiful.  It is constantly grasping for more. I know people can't control what they want, but it just seems like a never-ending cycle. Don't you think that once you are conscious, wanting more always leads to more of the same striving? It doesn't know what it's striving for, but it assumes that it's death requires fireworks. What if it doesn't? I mean if it never existed, then how can it ever die? Is this not the same as assuming more money will bring happiness, only now assuming that whatever enlightenment is will do the trick? Worse, what if accepting that what is can't be known is the only barrier between an individual and seeing what really is. How can someone know what occurs outside of their perception? It is literally outside of known perception, where the unknown or nothing takes place. Anyways, I just don't see how a steady supply of desire can do anything other than fuel egoic thoughts. But there is definitely no certainty on this end. Just would like to hear your thoughts.

It's just so amazing to me man. Everything is literally arising out of nothing. The images, sounds and touch of whatever is outside of our perceptual field are rendering a reality in real time, and the kicker... it always happens in the same moment, always right now. I mean really. WTF could be outside of our perceptual field? No one can ever know. It is the literal unknown nothing outside of the known.  Where exactly does the answer lie outside of just observing it happen and having a recognition of the fact that all of it is you? What more can be desired? More "me" stories about what isnt in this moment but what could be with a little more wanting it?

Its a fuckin hologram with no input. I mean WTF

1) It's very important to distinguish the desire for enlightenment from the desire for everything else. Desire for other stuff = bad. Desire for enlightenment = good. You should desire enlightenment so much that you are willing to give up your life to find it. Without that level of desire, your chances are slim. Above all else, truly spiritual people are those who put their spirituality as #1 priority. It's not a hobby for them. It's not something they just do 1 hour per day. It consumes them. You need to have a love for Truth in order for this process to work. Love Truth more than you would love your child. Then stuff will start to happen for you.

2) You are conceptualizing stuff outside of perceptions without being aware that that's a conceptualization. There is no stuff outside. The stuff you think is outside is just a concept on the inside. What you can know is that everything "outside" is actually inside. All this requires is consciousness. You can know it because reality is nondual and the distinction between inside/outside doesn't exist. Another way to put it is that there is no inside. There's only outside, and you have full access to the outside. You're accessing it right now. Everything you think is inside is actually the outside. The feelings inside your body are as outside as the stars you see at night.

[Gopackgo]

@Leo Gura Believe it or not that was understood. Thanks. I'm still oscillating between extreme love and backlash from a me that it is known has been experienced, but is not there. It is a wide swing, and when it happens, I just have to let it flow through me like everything else arising. There's no other option. It is absolute existential terror, but the intensity is getting smaller and smaller. Sitting in class, I am notice breathing gets more controlled, and everything becomes lucid. It is the same sphere around me of space, and things are just flowing through it. It's hard to imagine the direct connection being permanent, but it is so natural. Life is just so amazing. The me had forgotten that. It is a truly awesome experience, and had your videos not been there, I may have felt insane (which I may be, but I would rather feel like this and be insane, than to be dreaming and be sane. I was also an atheist when it went down the first time, so as you can imagine, it was a shock.

This thought came to me shortly after the initial shift: "When you are looking out, you are looking in". I don't know if it was something that I heard before, but it comes back when it's needed. Thanks again.

[Pierre]

On 3/4/2017 at 1:12 AM, username said:

For instance, why are there monks who meditate for decades without becoming enlightened?

I wonder if some characteristics that lie at the core of traditional spiritual institutions are not very counter-productive.

For example, they need to have very definite features in order to maintain a strong identity and endure through time. This means particular and rigid theoretical views, precise rituals, a complex and nut-picking nomenclature, and of course the tacit (or often very explicit) claim that they are the best. How could they avoid a dogmatism that can only interfere with liberation?

They also need to be veeeery progressive, and to insist on the superhuman difficulties of becoming enlightened, in order to justify a life-long engagement as well as a strict hierarchy...and this could well mean a postponement of liberation to the End of Time.

Do you have some thoughts about these, let's say "sociological issues"?

[Guest username]

@Pierre I share your suspicions that institutionalized spirituality may result in sacrificing radical open-mindedness for the sake of preserving tradition and a certain knowledge system. This is what I suspect of institutionalized science as well.

I'm not against institutions, but I think it is important to realize their limitations. In order to preserve them, certain assumptions have to act as a glue. I think it would be very difficult to arrive at consensus and create order if they didn't have some sort of dogma to agree upon and give them direction.

This isn't necessarily all bad, as many institutions such as academia still produce results and offer unique insights. The danger is in not realizing the limitations. For instance, rationalists often fail to realize that their system is limited by adhering to certain  assumptions. We see the same trap in people who think scientists can solve everything through theory and lab experiments. The true epistemologically open spirit of inquiry behind the science is constrained to narrow parameters. This has its pros and its cons.

13 minutes ago, Pierre said:

They also need to be veeeery progressive, and to insist on the superhuman difficulties of becoming enlightened, in order to justify a life-long engagement as well as a strict hierarchy...and this could well mean a postponement of liberation to the End of Time.

Do you have some thoughts about these, let's say "sociological issues"?

I'm not quite sure what you meant here.

[Pierre]

@username I like you image of the glue. Well, it's exactly what I mean...It maintains coherence, but it sticks you to the ground.

[Pierre]

On 4/4/2017 at 11:19 PM, Leo Gura said:

Desire for other stuff = bad. Desire for enlightenment = good.

Wooops, my fundamentalism-alarm-system just flashed red. I hope it's nothing serious. Maybe it's too tightly set, I'll have to check...

[Bob84]

On 03/04/2017 at 0:02 PM, Loreena said:

Enlightenment is not easy and so everyone cannot achieve it. Maybe those minks don't have the qualities necessary for it.

Enlightenment is to easy, and your ego wants it to be hard, it wants to maintain the illusion of progress and getting somewhere.
The devotion in that sense prevents them from reaching the none existing goal.

Special clothes, shaving your head, meditating every day, has nothing to do with enlightenment

[mp22]

On 03/04/2017 at 11:50 AM, Prabhaker said:

When monks who meditate for decades don't become enlightened, either something is wrong with monks or enlightenment never happens. How a person doing his job , living in society, family can expect enlightenment ? 

I believe something is terribly wrong with monks and monasteries !

Not sure, a monk lives away from all the distractions which everyone agrees only makes awakenings more difficult. A monk can do dark retreats, fast etc with more ease because there is no family, obligations etc.  silent monasteries are even better. Plus there are masters there to keep you in check and nothing enticing you to do something else. So it would appear to me that monasterie should be a fast track to enlightenment or at least an awakening. 

[pluto]

One must completely let go and surrender to ALL desires.

You find all by losing all.

Why do you think some monks stop food/water intake for long periods of time? Even those are a part of the whole and once you are able to fully surrender yourself and 100% complete trust in the universe and even accepting of death if it were to occur is when divine re-connection comes in play.

That's my take on it from experience, its seems this way as the ultimate test.

[Guest username]

@pluto I see. Have you put this into practice in any way. I'm still having some trouble detaching from the need to have pleasant experiences.

 

I'm also quite susceptible to needs such as intimacy, validation, and acceptance.  I've made good progress with this by being more mindful and being able to somewhat perceive narratives as bundles of thought and sensation, but I still struggle.