Why is the West so lenient towards Israel?

[Vrubel]

4 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

You guys here that support Israel are really naive.

I have nuanced and critical views on the broader conflict and especially the Israeli government. But I fully support Israel in this war against Hamas. 
Hamas broke the seal of humanity and desecrated everything we hold dear and sanctify as humans. So what we are seeing now is an extremely understandable retaliation. Brutal as it is, it is still within certain bounds. My point is that if Israel was not as developed as it is or not kept in check by American influence, we would have seen WAY more casualties. People don't appreciate this. 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Vrubel

[Karmadhi]

11 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

in this war against Hamas. 

War against childreen and women you meant? Because most dying are them.

11 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Hamas broke the seal of humanity and desecrated everything we hold dear and sanctify as humans

They killed civilians, which is horrible but nothing new. Google "massacres" you will see hundreds and hundreds of them through history. I dont know why the world lost its shit about this specific massacre. Serbians massacred 8000 in Bosnia for example. Just in this century you had dozens of massacres, some with higher death tolls.

But of course when rich countries get massacred everyone looses their shit. Typical.

Your language is pure propaganda. "Seal of humanity". Bruh go open a history book. They did textbook massacre stuff. Nothing new. So is Israeli of course. They do textbook terror bombing. However Israeli is not getting condemned for their textbook bullshit.

11 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

My point is that if Israel was not as developed as it is or not kept in check by American influence, we would have seen WAY more casualties

I do agree that Israel is somewhat hold off by the international community but still it is getting a lot of free passes. You cannot say "way more casualties" when you have 40.000 tonnes of bombs dropped on an area the size of London in 1 month and a half.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Vrubel]

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Your language is pure propaganda. "Seal of humanity". Bruh go open a history book. They did textbook massacre stuff. Nothing new. So is Israeli of course. They do textbook terror bombing. However Israeli is not getting condemned for their textbook bullshit.

Yes, I used my words very deliberately. When you rip away everything we hold dear as humans, When you rape the daughter of a big club bouncer in front of him, you open the gates of hell on yourself. Life becomes desanctified because naked survival takes over to save the daughter and to ensure such a thing can never happen again.

Hamas is hiding amongst the civilians, and Imagine if you will the "hand of God" coming down from the sky, grabbing and ripping the Hamas terrorists out, and snaring up scores of civilians along them as collateral. That's what Israel is doing because protecting your citizens from rape, massacre and mutilation is paramount and trumps the tragic collateral. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Vrubel

[Karmadhi]

@Vrubel

56 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

When you rip away everything we hold dear as humans

So by your logic, Hamas attack is justified since Gazas have been absolutely massacred historically by Israelis. 2500 civilians dead in 2014 alone. Many of Hamas fighters are orphans. By your logic they did a justifiable act by killing people that support the country that took their loved ones away. By killing people that voted for the governments who threw missles in their houses and killed their parents. Their rage is justified.

This is your logic. And this is EXACTLY how they think. We are killing occupiers who killed our families. This is what fuels them to kill the civilians in Israel. YOUR sort of thinking.

DISGUSTING.

Unless this way of thinking ends the cycle of hatred will never end.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Vrubel]

@Karmadhi Don't take it personally out on me. I am explaining basic human survival and state defense. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Vrubel

[Karmadhi]

@Vrubel Both Hamas and IDF are monsters. They should be hanged for crimes agaisnt humanity.

This is basic human justice sense.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Vrubel]

One is a death cult that is suiciding its own people and the other one is an accountable army defending its citizens. 

[Karmadhi]

@Vrubel The death toll says otherwise. The UN says otherwise. Why would I trust governments which are biased instead of unbiased entitles and numbers?

[Lila9]

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

@Vrubel The death toll says otherwise. The UN says otherwise. Why would I trust governments which are biased instead of unbiased entitles and numbers?

UN is biased AF against Israel.

If you think UN is objective this is hilarious.

It fails to condomn Hamas crimes which are a real threat for humanity.

And it's not only me who's thinking that, a person who grew up with Hamas and was one of them says it in his speech to UN.

 

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

UN is biased AF against Israel.

If you think UN is objective this is hilarious.

It fails to condomn Hamas crimes which are a real threat for humanity.

And it's not only me who's thinking that, a person who grew up with Hamas and was one of them says it in his speech to UN.

 

UN is maybe the most biased player on the field. Even Iran is less biased.

[Vrubel]

@Karmadhi The UN human rights council is chaired by Iran. All that I say is based on personal observation, not the Israeli army. Nothing of what I say is the "official" Israeli standpoint meant for the low-brow propaganda war that is being waged. I fully support and love the IDF but I have no problem pointing out shortcomings, failures and when-and-why they are being untruthful.  

[Danioover9000]

@Vrubel

7 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

@Karmadhi The UN human rights council is chaired by Iran. All that I say is based on personal observation, not the Israeli army. Nothing of what I say is the "official" Israeli standpoint meant for the low-brow propaganda war that is being waged. I fully support and love the IDF but I have no problem pointing out shortcomings, failures and when-and-why they are being untruthful.  

   To prove you are unbiased, can you list all the shortcomings of Israel in this conflict, and what theh did wrong for the past 100 years that lead to this conflict?

[Vrubel]

@Danioover9000 I am not unbiased, I am on the side of Israel in this war but I can also see the bigger picture and nuances. I know the history and much of what I explain is general, like war, basic human survival and state defense. 

If you would ask me during WW2 are you for the British or Germans? I would be absolutely biased in support for the British. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Vrubel

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

@Danioover9000 I am not unbiased, I am on the side of Israel in this war but I can also see the bigger picture and nuances. I know the history and much of what I explain is general, like war, basic human survival and state defense. 

If you would ask me during WW2 are you for the British or Germans? I would be absolutely biased in support for the British. 

Fear is a bad adviser, bias a bad interpreter. Neither seek truth but seek information to confirm their versions of truth.

Likewise, I would side with the British against a expansionist supremacist ideological war machine wanting to rampage the European continent. In Israel/Palestine's cause they Palestinians don't have such intentions and the false equivocation of the two is a sneaky tactic used to de-legitimize the Palestinian cause.

If the Palestinians were so bad, evil and in the wrong - people from the Israeli side wouldn't feel the need to refer to Hamas as Hamas-ISIS or Nazi's in order to justify their actions in Gaza today. They only do this to make a false association and because propaganda is all they have when the don't have the truth of justice or international legalities on their side.

Saying all that I can also see the side of the Israeli's. Moral relativism and a mature mind allows us to see all sides, but moral legitimacy and a mature mind can also see whats more just.

If the basic premise of Israel occupying the land of the Palestinians is omitted, then every subsequent point of discussion falls flat.

Do you consider Palestinian land / territory as occupied?

[Danioover9000]

@Vrubel

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

@Danioover9000 I am not unbiased, I am on the side of Israel in this war but I can also see the bigger picture and nuances. I know the history and much of what I explain is general, like war, basic human survival and state defense. 

If you would ask me during WW2 are you for the British or Germans? I would be absolutely biased in support for the British. 

   I'm not asking if your unbiased or biased, I'm asking you to demonstrate your attempt at being unbiased by listing the wrongs from Israel's side first, before listing the wrongs from Palestine's side.

   BTW, this is one example of why it's important to have enforcement arms for ideologies, as a ramification from feminism, egalitarianism and westernized secularist countries that have declining birthrates and high divorce rates, and also an example of why patriarchy is important. If Palestine had it's enforcement arm, like a military, it could defend it's own self determination and it's own biases from Israel, but due to the 100-70 years of the Israel Palestine conflict, and Israel having superior technological and mechanized army, and having some outside support, it can enforce it's own bias onto Palestinians.

[Danioover9000]

@Nabd

8 minutes ago, Nabd said:

As many people said here before, I don't think discussing the issue of Palestine Israel is productive.

The bias runs deep and its just not possible to communicate effectively. I wanna visit Israel but I never lived there and I am sure if I went there and met some nice people and made friendships then I will be more understanding of them, even maybe the right wingers.

Same thing might be said about an Israeli who thinks bombing like that is humane or the only way out. If they were in Gaza, they would see things much more differently.

This is why I think the only possible long term solution to this issue is for people to start to mingle and fuck. Once these 2 groups of people sleep with each other, most of the problems will go away. Not utopian because it already happens in Israel and west bank but just needs to be done on greater scale.

   Sure, I heard that there are mud baths in Israel you can go to, they're nice to take.

[Vrubel]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

Do you consider Palestinian land / territory as occupied?

 

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

 I'm not asking if your unbiased or biased, I'm asking you to demonstrate your attempt at being unbiased by listing the wrongs from Israel's side first, before listing the wrongs from Palestine's side.

I am more unbiased than you think. I care for a two-state solution but in this war, I am fully behind Israel.

I am not talking propaganda when I say "Hamas has broken the seal of humanity". Israel is in a dark place right now and needs to ensure it's most basic and fundamental security. If it's not able to do that it has no right to exist.    
 

1 hour ago, Nabd said:

This is why I think the only possible long term solution to this issue is for people to start to mingle and fuck. Once these 2 groups of people sleep with each other, most of the problems will go away. Not utopian because it already happens in Israel and west bank but just needs to be done on greater scale.

Haha, as a secular Jewish person I don't really care about what nationality I date. But dating an Arab girl, even if she is secular, modern and not anti-Israel, it's way too awkward. I am not racist and maybe there are some exceptions,(I did date an Iranian girl but she was obviously pro-Israel so that doesn't count) but generally, it's just too awkward. People also have the right to their own opinion but for me dating a pro-Palestine Western girl is also out of the question. 
I have already figured out that I have the best click and cultural affiliation with Russian women. So maybe I'll find a nice Russian girl ideally with some Jewish roots or a connection to Israel, that's actually not so rare. Maybe we'll end up moving to Israel together.  

Edited November 22, 2023 by Vrubel

[Danioover9000]

@Vrubel

53 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

 

I am more unbiased than you think. I care for a two-state solution but in this war, I am fully behind Israel.

I am not talking propaganda when I say "Hamas has broken the seal of humanity". Israel is in a dark place right now and needs to ensure it's most basic and fundamental security. If it's not able to do that it has no right to exist.    
 

Haha, as a secular Jewish person I don't really care about what nationality I date. But dating an Arab girl, even if she is secular, modern and not anti-Israel, it's way too awkward. I am not racist and maybe there are some exceptions,(I did date an Iranian girl but she was obviously pro-Israel so that doesn't count) but generally, it's just too awkward. People also have the right to their own opinion but for me dating a pro-Palestine Western girl is also out of the question. 
I have already figured out that I have the best click and cultural affiliation with Russian women. So maybe I'll find a nice Russian girl ideally with some Jewish roots or a connection to Israel, that's actually not so rare. Maybe we'll end up moving to Israel together.  

   Okay, so you acknowledge that you're more biased and preferential to Israel and not Palestine, and less unbiased and objectively looking at this whole situation, which means you can't list the pros and cons of Palestine, and pros and cons of Israel, in this entire conflict. Given that, could you at least list 3 things that are wrong from Israel's actions towards Palestinians, and 3 things that are right from Palestinian's response to Israel? Or are you too biased that you cannot do a basic list of rights and wrongs from either side? Also, it's a contradiction that you're so unbiased, yet you are biased to Israel in this particular war going on, were you like this when you look at the history of the Israel Palestine conflict?

[Danioover9000]

@Nabd

2 minutes ago, Nabd said:

Most people don't care on a day to day basis about politics. Don't forget that before the 7th October attack, the atmosphere was much better and not overly politicizes.

Of course dating a girl/guy who are extremists in their stand (pro Israel or Palestine instead of pro peace) is not gonna work, but there are Palestinians in Israel who I am sure are pro peace for 1 state solution for example. Even in the west bank alot of people do not want to eradicate Israelis.

This mixing is happening in Syria for example where alot of young people are dating from all sects which makes sectarian tensions unlikely to happen in younger generations.

The same can and I think will eventually happen in Israel and Palestine. You guys just have to start fucking the hate out of each other

...what?