Why is the West so lenient towards Israel?

[zazen]

19 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I understand, but many or most of the "kicking out" was only after the arabs started resisting violently the Jews who came here during the British Mandatory and especially after the war the arab initiated in respone the the UN Partition Plan.

Thats what I understand but if you have another data please add because I am not an expert and maybe I dont see the whole picture

As you say yourself, only after the Arabs started resisting - resisting what? Occupation and oppression. That is their right.  I found this video very interesting on the 6 day war and possible causes to it.

 

21 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

About the settlements I agree with you, but in the other hand the opposite is also true because Israel has offered the palestinians endless times to establish a state for them with eastern Jerusalem as their capital and most of the west bank area, and they have always rejected every proposal including when we offered them that we will retreat back to 67' lines (with areas exchanges).

From what I've read they weren't offered true sovereignty or control of their borders. That's where they would have issue. The audacity for someone to come to your house and then negotiate with you how much of it you can have, and the part that you do have you don't even get full control over lol. Only people with zero dignity or self respect could concede to such offers.

How are Palestinians offered a state but without their own army or control of their borders, that's not offering a state but a land that is still occupied. Occupation doesn't just mean Israelis sitting on Palestinians laps, it can also include control of such basic rights that extend to any state.

[BlueOak]

Political Money. - Threats to campaigns from special interest groups.
Strategic Regional Interests.
Convenient Moralizing. Good guys | Bad guys | Victims - That's why many votes are cast in elections, though victimhood has largely been seen as a negative in western society of late, it's trying to make a resurgence via Russian and Israel media outlets.
American - Iranian relations. If you have poor relations with Iran you automatically get a better reaction from America. Ditto the reverse.
Military Industrial Complex - One of their biggest customers.
Oil Industries. - War feeds the oil industry but also strategic interests mentioned above, for the regional oil it requires partners in the region.
*BRICS - BRICS has positioned itself as the competitor to the west, and thus the world is eternally to be divided into us vs them until that is resolved or changed.

Anyone above saying my country doesn't do these things in some form is misguided or lying.
There is no country that uses systematic thinking as a basis for its policies and works backward from that methodology or avoids closed-loop limited reasoning in how they reach their decisions.
 

Edited November 20, 2023 by BlueOak

[Leo Gura]

The US is not a neutral actor, it has biases.

[Vrubel]

1. Because Israel is a first-world developed country with economic and cultural affiliations with the West. 
2. It did not start this war
3. It's fighting a terrorist group/government
4. It's doing its best to minimize civilian causalities. Israel does not benefit from killing civilians and has a decent degree of accountability. 
5. Terrorists use human shields and creating civilian casualties in their own population is their main objective. 
 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Vrubel

[jaylimix]

14 hours ago, LSD-Rumi said:

I mean killing more than 10000 people in the span of a month would grant a lot of economical sanctions for any other country if it engaged in such things. Why is it different in the case of Israel?

Countless number of fools who believes in the death toll coming out from Gaza health Ministry, oversees by Hamas, who then insidiously use this as wartime propaganda. 

If you could at least doubt the numbers, then there is some hope for you.

[jaylimix]

In case you haven't this video, not all rockets are from Israeli airstrikes, according to the IDF, 25% of terrorists' rockets malfunctioned.

 

[LSD-Rumi]

1 hour ago, jaylimix said:

Countless number of fools who believes in the death toll coming out from Gaza health Ministry, oversees by Hamas, who then insidiously use this as wartime propaganda. 

If you could at least doubt the numbers, then there is some hope for you.

Again, the numbers are not that fantastical considering the non stop random Israeli airstrikes.

[Raze]

The politicians are bribed by AIPAC.

[How to be wise]

Because Israel is fighting terrorists and dealing with radicals.

[Nivsch]

9 hours ago, Vrubel said:

1. Because Israel is a first-world developed country with economic and cultural affiliations with the West. 
2. It did not start this war
3. It's fighting a terrorist group/government
4. It's doing its best to minimize civilian causalities. Israel does not benefit from killing civilians and has a decent degree of accountability. 
5. Terrorists use human shields and creating civilian casualties in their own population is their main objective. 
 

🎯

[LSD-Rumi]

11 hours ago, Vrubel said:

It's doing its best to minimize civilian causalities. Israel does not benefit from killing civilians and has a decent degree of accountability. 

This is the whole point. If you are fighting terrorists, that doesn't mean you can justify killing people left and right, while claiming you are actually "minimizing" civilian casualties.
Israel even prevented the entry of humanitarian support for a few days at the beginning of the war.

Israel only cares about eliminating Hammas and taking revenge. The life of the innocent doesn't mean that much to them. When you kill more than 10000 people in a month, you cannot claim you care about human life.

The US was criticized for killing a family that was hiding in the same house of ISIS's main Leader while Israel killed hundreds for eliminating a single Hamas official. 

The leniency towards Israel is unmatched.

Edited November 21, 2023 by LSD-Rumi

[Nivsch]

@LSD-Rumi I would argue about the details a lot but I want to stress another point now: This is exactly what hamas wants people to say. hamas is a clever virus that engineered the situation in such a way that claims like you make are an inheret part of its deffense mechanism against the physical attack on him. It is not stupid. It knows it is much weaker and thats why its deffense strategy is highly manipulative and half of its efforts are aimed to maintain this non-physical deffense stage orange strategy the most senior among hamas people are capable to do.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

2 hours ago, LSD-Rumi said:

This is the whole point. If you are fighting terrorists, that doesn't mean you can justify killing people left and right, while claiming you are actually "minimizing" civilian casualties.
Israel even prevented the entry of humanitarian support for a few days at the beginning of the war.

Did you consider that it might be impossible for Israel to effectively fight Hamas without striking through some human shields? 

To be honest I think all calls to a permanent ceasefire are extremely naive without the destruction of Hamas or the safe release of all hostages.

2 hours ago, LSD-Rumi said:

Israel only cares about eliminating Hammas and taking revenge. The life of the innocent doesn't mean that much to them. When you kill more than 10000 people in a month, you cannot claim you care about human life.

Israel cares about saving lives of their own. They also care for international support or tacit approval as without it Israel cannot wage the war. So that's already a selfish reason for Israel to minimize civilian casualties.

This is not a revenge war, it's definitely methodical and militarily focused. But there is certainly an element of fury that made gloves come off. Which is very understandable considering all that was done in the Hamas attack. 
 

10 hours ago, LSD-Rumi said:

Again, the numbers are not that fantastical considering the non stop random Israeli airstrikes.

Definitely, some manipulations going on. The numbers might be even higher but they could leave out men of fighting age. It's already clear that the numbers do not distinguish between civilians and combatants. But yeah arguing about this is useless and not what is important. It's tragic either way. The number would be way higher if Israel did not employ tactics to save civilians. 
 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Vrubel

[BlueOak]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

@LSD-Rumi I would argue about the details a lot but I want to stress another point now: This is exactly what hamas wants people to say. hamas is a clever virus that engineered the situation in such a way that claims like you make are an inheret part of its deffense mechanism against the physical attack on him. It is not stupid. It knows it is much weaker and thats why its deffense strategy is highly manipulative and half of its efforts are aimed to maintain this non-physical deffense stage orange strategy the most senior among hamas people are capable to do.

An ideology is not a virus it is an ideology.
People are not a virus they are people.

Of course there is a defense mechanism triggered in people against attacks. It's called survival instinct. Look in the mirror. You are doing the same.

You are attempting manipulation right now, by using the terminology you are using rather than the word itself. Rather than discussing the flaws of the ideology in a practical manner, you are understandably running on emotion from the suffering you have endured. Rather than talk about how the Palestinian ideology has brought about the destruction of its own people, because that will force you to acknowledge the same from your own government, and the precarious nature of being surrounded by enemies. Enemies that you are further enraging while dealing with an increasingly isolationist American guardian, who probably won't hold the absolute power or the will to project it in the coming decades.

This is a strategic blunder. Israel's occupation of this land will justify a 100 years of violence towards your own country, in the minds of people who think like that. That won't be able to be reversed by any amount of diplomacy while you occupy it. You either choose not to see this or can't see it yet. Russia or China might protect you, but so far their alliance with Iran has deepened significantly, almost to the point of bringing China and America into a naval battle. 

This is the last decade America will have significant naval dominance over China, and their aircraft carriers will no longer be able to offer an absolute shield so you can act on emotion rather than reason.

I know I know I have a virus right? Sure, let's go with that.

Edited November 21, 2023 by BlueOak

[BlueOak]

If I had to reflect the counter to my own argument, it could be because of all these factors, Israel has decided now is the time they have to remove gaza from the equation as much as possible, as horrific a conclusion as that is. Long term though, all of this has pushed back any potential reconciliation of this issue in a broader sense so far forward in time, that I still feel unless something else majorly shifts in the region, it's going to present a tragic set of conclusions long term.

Imagine a world where Israel was protecting Palestinians as members of their own country. Rather than expelling them they were welcoming them into one nation and making strong efforts to integrate both people into a state. Removing Hamas of course, as it has an incompatible worldview. No Arab nation would be the aggressor, because they would face the same wrath from other Arabs for attacking their own. A different world.

Edited November 21, 2023 by BlueOak

[LSD-Rumi]

Enough politics for me, my OCD started acting up 

[Karmadhi]

15 hours ago, Vrubel said:

cultural affiliations

The West is not a racist ethno state like Israel is. Israel is the most racist first world country in the world.

15 hours ago, Vrubel said:

It did not start this war

The war has been ongoing for decades. Not clear who started what. 

15 hours ago, Vrubel said:

It's fighting a terrorist group/government

Israel is also a terrorist government. At least the current one. Not much more developed than Hamas. 

15 hours ago, Vrubel said:

It's doing its best to minimize civilian causalities. Israel does not benefit from killing civilians and has a decent degree of accountability

UN and every non biased party says otherwise. I trust them more than a nation full of liars like Isarel is. And so does the rest of the world. Trusting Israel more than the UN or Red Cross is comical.

15 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Terrorists use human shields and creating civilian casualties in their own population is their main objective. 

There is some truth to that but if Israel wanted the death toll would be way lower regardless. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Karmadhi

[sholomar]

On 11/20/2023 at 5:15 AM, Twentyfirst said:

The West is hypocritical in its nature

Everything it actually does it projects outwards on others and everything it says it will do it does the opposite 

Since the beginning of The West 

The West are the terrorists. All you need to do is pop out of its insulated bubble and its obvious 

With the whole Israel thing. It's just one of the many chess moves that The West makes to expand their empires 

Human beings are hypocrites as a species. We are motivated largely by self gain and will always tend to have a self bias no matter what culture we are in, not to mention a group bias to whatever "tribe" we identify with. To answer your question the west is lenient towards Israel because jews have a lot of power and have had a lot of power within the west for the entirety of the industrial and technological revolution. They were the money changers, the bankers, the usurers. It's easy to criticize the people in charge and use them as a scapegoat, but those in charge will sometimes have biases themselves. It's human nature. Our entire culture in the US has been around "judeo-christian" values so there's a cultural component. Most people see Israel as a "democracy" and neighboring countries as "autocratic" and less developed and to a degree they are correct, but there's that bias... that there's one "right" way to live.

Israel is at a higher spiral dynamics stage than it's neighbors. Obviously they still have some work to do though. I mean, they're only human.  When our fight or flight (sympathetic) response is triggered, our spiral dynamics level tends to revert back to our more base animal drives. It's easy to be a saint when your tummy is full and you feel safe and secure. Not so much when bombs are going off around you. Not everyone is a submissive snowflake who hides in a corner hoping for peace when things get violent. Many of us have a killer instinct wired into our genetic makeup, and war gives an excuse to exercise it, for the good of whatever cause is being peddled by those in charge at the time.

I don't support either side, though I admit in my 20's I used to be one of those right wing, David Duke type anti-zionists, so for me this whole situation of watching leftists oppose Israel fascinates me. I saw the jewish power back then. I still see it, but life is more complicated than simply blaming an entire group of people for all of the problems in society. This idea that any culture of people has some "ancient claim" to a piece of land to me is equally silly. North America doesn't belong to the Indians just because they were supposedly here first. Who was here before they were?  Does Israel belong to Palestinians because they were there first? Research the "balfour declaration." Nature is savage. Survival of the fittest and strong, the intelligent and the cunning. Land belongs to whoever can take it and defend it. Killer bees and fire ants will displace native populations of different species through brutal force as they spread through a continent. Muzzles will deprive lakes and rivers of nutrients starving native fish species. Those are the basic laws of this universe.  Compassion is a human construct and has a genetic component. The lion doesn't get punished for eating the gazelle. We as humans don't try to turn lions into vegans. That would be futile.   May the strongest side win.

Edited November 21, 2023 by sholomar

[Karmadhi]

You guys here that support Israel are really naive.

The reason the death toll is so high, is not by fault but by design.

Dahiya doctrine - Wikiwand

I will quote: "The Dahiya doctrine, or Dahya doctrine, is a military strategy of asymmetric warfare, outlined by former Israel Defense Forces (IDF) Chief of General Staff Gadi Eizenkot, which encompasses the destruction of the civilian infrastructure of regimes deemed to be hostile as a measure calculated to deny combatants the use of that infrastructure and endorses the employment of "disproportionate force" to secure that end.

The doctrine is named after the Dahieh neighborhood of Beirut, where Hezbollah was headquartered during the 2006 Lebanon War, which were heavily damaged by the IDF"

This is what they are doing in Gaza as a response to the Hamas attack.

It is done to beat them so badly, to crush them so much that they will never dare to raise against Israel again. 

Basically to terrorize the entire population of Gaza into submission so every man knows if they dare to attack Israel, their entire family will be killed in response. This will make them think twice about doing so.

I dont understand why is it so hard for you guys to accept it? It does make logical and strategical sense (although I think it is not effective).

The Germans had a similar policy against Slavs partisan attacks during the second world war. They burn down villages close to where the Partisan attacks happened in response.

This is not some new invention, it is textbook military strategy.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Karmadhi

[sholomar]

Meanwhile, Hamas is hiding a lot of their weapons in civilian facilities such as schools. Textbook military strategy (or the strategy of terrorists) ... they did this back in 2014 also.

https://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/5912189/yes-gaza-militants-hide-rockets-in-schools-but-israel-doesnt-have-to

Again, I'm neutral on this conflict. I see war as human nature... DNA playing itself out on the global stage as the sheeple take their "sides" and defend their "positions"  for some "cause" their mind invents or swallows from state sanctioned or cultural propaganda while none of it really matters in the grand scheme of things outside of raising the global spiral dynamics level.  Getting the two sides to come to a peace agreement rather than saying that some group has some ancient claim to a piece of land would be the best solution here.  Do you sit by while the other side keeps bombing you? Who actually started the conflict? Who is going to finish it? There's no simple answer here when the desire for "revenge" is wired into our genetic makeup.

Leftists often romanticize nature saying it's peaceful and innocent and we humans are the savages. Bullshit. All of nature is survival of the fittest. We are no different than any other animal species... perhaps more compassionate. We are at the top of the food chain so of course we have more influence over our environment. This idea that "we should know better" than to act this way, is also philosophical and idealistic bullshit. Our animalistic drives and insticts run our behavior when we are under stress. The level of "free will" gets greatly diminished. We become creatures of programmed responses to stimuli, which is basically what we are.  Who is "right" and who is "wrong" in this conflict does it really matter?  Take your sides.

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by sholomar