1 state or 2 state solution and why?

[PurpleTree]

1 minute ago, Twentyfirst said:

I was replying to you

You said "the jews won’t leave and they won’t let palestinians have control over them so just let that go"

Thats a problem since they are on Palestinian land. They should not have the final say and whatever they say we all have to just swallow

With that way of thinking palestinian children will suffer many more decades 

at some point you have to accept reality and deal with it accordingly and not what your utopia would be or your best case scenario 

 

[Twentyfirst]

Just now, PurpleTree said:

With that way of thinking palestinian children will suffer many more decades 

at some point you have to accept reality and deal with it accordingly and not what your utopia would be or your best case scenario 

 

There is no Palestinian suffering without Israeli suffering. We are all different sides of the same coin after all. Karma and all that

Utopia? You don't know what I think 

Whats your solution bud

[PurpleTree]

11 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

There is no Palestinian suffering without Israeli suffering. We are all different sides of the same coin after all. Karma and all that

Utopia? You don't know what I think 

Whats your solution bud

Yea it’s also very unhealthy for israelis to be in this position of power or “oppression”

i don’t really have a solution. I opened this thread to see what the people say about those two main “solutions” 

i used to think 1 state is absolutely impossible. But it would certainly be the “nicer” more inclusive solution. Probably still impossible though

[Twentyfirst]

1 minute ago, PurpleTree said:

Yea it’s also very unhealthy for israelis to be in this position of power or “oppression”

i don’t really have a solution. I opened this thread to see what the people say about those two main “solutions” 

i used to think 1 state is absolutely impossible. But it would certainly be the “nicer” more inclusive solution. Probably still impossible though

Thats why both sides just tell the other to leave completely. Its only the rest of the world that are looking or solutions because they don't have to face any consequences and it sounds so pretty 

[PurpleTree]

25 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Thats why both sides just tell the other to leave completely. Its only the rest of the world that are looking or solutions because they don't have to face any consequences and it sounds so pretty 

Yea with one state there would probably still be decades of uncertainty and violence. Shootings here and there. Unless there were some amazing leaders who brought people together but we can’t hope or bet on that, their leaders suck. Time and extremism is the enemy.

[Twentyfirst]

32 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Yea with one state there would probably still be decades of uncertainty and violence. Shootings here and there. Unless there were some amazing leaders who brought people together but we can’t hope or bet on that, their leaders suck. Time and extremism is the enemy.

Israelis living under Palestinian rule wouldn't be that bad for them. Its the Europeans who killed the most Jews in history not the Arabs 

[PurpleTree]

4 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Israelis living under Palestinian rule wouldn't be that bad for them. Its the Europeans who killed the most Jews in history not the Arabs 

Since 1946 jews have been much much much safer in western/european countries than in arab/muslim countries

[Twentyfirst]

17 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Since 1946 jews have been much much much safer in western/european countries than in arab/muslim countries

Thats because the Jews made enemies in the Middle East when they didn't have to?

[PurpleTree]

3 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Thats because the Jews made enemies in the Middle East when they didn't have to?

Well maybe so but it doesn’t change the facts on the ground now

also i was listening to an interview and the guy said there was always a latent anti semitism in islamic countries but around 80 years ago it became active

 

[PurpleTree]

@Nivsch @Lila9 

which is the solution?

[Twentyfirst]

35 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Well maybe so but it doesn’t change the facts on the ground now

also i was listening to an interview and the guy said there was always a latent anti semitism in islamic countries but around 80 years ago it became active

 

Still what I said was true. Nobody ever killed as many Jews as The West and probably ever will 

[Lila9]

52 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

@Nivsch @Lila9 

which is the solution?

The Palestinian authority never wanted or believed in two state solution. This is their core value in their doctrine, they wouldn't compromise on less than 100%. That is why they will never be satisfied with Gaza and the WB alone and will keep doing attacks on Israel until they get 100% of the land.

There is a change of two states if there will be a paradigm shift in the Palestinian consciousness, to accept the right of Jews to have a Jewish country in the Jewish historical land and stop fighting and trying to kill Jews.

Then it will be possible to negotiate some peaceful solution.

Otherwise it would be suicidal of Israel to negotiate such thing with someone that antisemitic. 

 

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

The Palestinian authority never wanted or believed in two state solution. This is their core value in their doctrine, they wouldn't compromise on less than 100%. That is why they will never be satisfied with Gaza and the WB alone and will keep doing attacks on Israel until they get 100% of the land.

There is a change of two states if there will be a paradigm shift in the Palestinian consciousness, to accept the right of Jews to have a Jewish country in the Jewish historical land and stop fighting and trying to kill Jews.

Then it will be possible to negotiate some peaceful solution.

Otherwise it would be suicidal of Israel to negotiate such thing with someone that antisemitic. 

 

Israel never wanted or believed in a two state solution. This is in their charter. They won't compromise on West Bank or Gaza and will keep occupying, encroaching and suffocating the Palestinians till they expel themselves or wither away from poor living conditions. Israel denies them their past, makes their present dire, and kills any future hope for them.

“The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.”

- https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party?utm_content=cmp-true

“We must expel Arabs and take their place. Up to now, all our aspirations have been based on an assumption – one that has been vindicated throughout our activities in the country – that there is enough room in the land for the Arabs and ourselves. But if we are compelled to use force – not in order to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev or Transjordan, but in order to guarantee our right to settle there – our force will enable us to do so.”

- Ben Gurion ( First prime minister of Israel ) https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2013/04/06/the-ben-gurion-letter/

 

The change also needs to come from a paradigm shift within and from the Israeli side. Are you willing to see this?

The audacity for someone to come to your house and then negotiate with you how much of it you can have due to their narcissistic entitlement to it.

 

Some of her words: ''I want to have for the Jewish nation the promised land from the Bible. From the Euphrates (river in Iraq) to the Nile (in Egypt), and I'm sure it will be. Even parts of Syria, Iraq even Iran. Many people believe in it.''

Edited November 20, 2023 by zazen

[Lila9]

39 minutes ago, zazen said:

Israel never wanted or believed in a two state solution. This is in their charter. They won't compromise on West Bank or Gaza and will keep occupying, encroaching and suffocating the Palestinians till they expel themselves or wither away from poor living conditions. Israel denies them their past, makes their present dire, and kills any future hope for them.

This is not true, you selectively choose people in Israel who expressed it, some PM of Israel 70 years ago and some radical settler but history proves Israel doesn't care about having two states as long as it promises peace.

Israel gave up on Sinai for peace with Egypt and Israel gave up on Gaza for peace with Palestine. 

Is that work? No, instead of investing in Gaza and WB and building a beautiful state of Palestinian, they invested in weapon against Israel.

Israel doesn't remove the Al-Aqsa mosque and rebuild the Jewish temple there was prior to the mosque, only because it values peace with the Arab world.

Even though this place considered the holliest place for Jews and only the 3rd holiest place for Islam.

Prior to attack, Israel tried to form Peace with Saudia.

Israel is the most peaceful state in the ME region.

 

 

[BlueOak]

Both sides need to Pick one.

Either political union or division.

Unions like a Federal republic or Confederation.
Division as two recognized states with formal diplomatic relations.

The middle ground is what both current governments thrive off. If they have an opponent they get to stay in power. It's the ultimate flaw with all states that have gone too far right. An opponent is necessary and to the extreme, an external opponent is required to maintain the military. Hatred towards immigrants, the poor, or gay people can no longer sustain the ruling parties identity. The need to feel morally superior is no longer enough, a direct military action and victory needs to be shown.

[BlueOak]

A one-state solution is a more bloodless way of achieving stability, as opposed to constant border friction fought out in physical expression of rockets or gunfights. You instead would get that same fighting in the government with the occasional bout of political violence, which is extremely preferable, as both parties are working on a larger structure of stability as opposed to their own narrower competing interests.

At the moment in America for example, many people are pushing in the opposite direction, to rip the union apart. They are not working on a union or stability but instability and disorder. This will increase political-related violence as it's manifested not only in leaders coming from those communities that become divided, but in the social fabric and culture, such as differing school systems educating children to be further divided from others in differing states. Violence and suffering may be enough to stop it and bring people back to work on stability/balance, or it may go further into division.

Ditto BRICS vs NATO, playing out in smaller border conflicts, becoming institutionalized competition, which leads to ingraining cultural competition/division now as opposed to a globalized move towards harmony.

Ditto Anyone on this forum not speaking from a place of union but division.

Edited November 20, 2023 by BlueOak

[jaylimix]

14 hours ago, Twentyfirst said:

If theres one state it should be under Palestinian authority since it's originally their land before the British split it up. It's not about whose better or not its just common sense

Would you let someone be the boss of the business you founded?

False, there was not a Palestinian country before the British split it up and later on the UN partition.

The UN partitioned the whole land, known as Palestine, into two.

One for the Jews, one for the Arabs.

The Jews named theirs as Israel, whereas the Arabs kept the name Palestine.

[Nivsch]

On 20.11.2023 at 5:31 PM, Lila9 said:

The Palestinian authority never wanted or believed in two state solution. This is their core value in their doctrine, they wouldn't compromise on less than 100%. That is why they will never be satisfied with Gaza and the WB alone and will keep doing attacks on Israel until they get 100% of the land.

There is a change of two states if there will be a paradigm shift in the Palestinian consciousness, to accept the right of Jews to have a Jewish country in the Jewish historical land and stop fighting and trying to kill Jews.

Then it will be possible to negotiate some peaceful solution.

Otherwise it would be suicidal of Israel to negotiate such thing with someone that antisemitic. 

 

Agree. Thay can't get a state unless there will be a security belt of 20-30km depth all over the west bank maybe this is the only possible scenario.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Nivsch

[jaylimix]

@Nivsch

The Xinjiang re-education camp method is the answer.

Xinjiang suffered numerous terror attacks until the re-education camp was introduced, and since then terror attacks problems has been solved.

The CCP did not just wake up one day and said "we gonna subjugate the Uygurs by dragging them into re-eduction camp."

This is a self fulfilling reality created by the Uygurs themselves, just as Palestinians are creating their own self created reality.

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/comprehensive-listing-of-terrorism-victims-in-israel