Solipsism proof : experience isn't divided nor limited

[Loveeee]

5 hours ago, Osaid said:

If other people don't exist, does that mean solipsism points to non-existence? If you are saying that solipsism is true because "x does not exist", what is that actually saying about the things that do exist? 

Solipsism points to the infinity of This/Here/Now

By infinity I mean non-finity, I mean undivided/unlimited

5 hours ago, Osaid said:

Bit of a tangent, but since you brought it up, not believing in something wouldn't necessarily make me a disbeliever. If someone stopped believing in God, that would not necessarily turn them into a disbeliever, they could also simply be agnostic.

If you let go of all belief, you stop believing in God and even the possibility of it, you're not agnostic

Does that mean you believe it's impossible ? No, you simply don't believe anything

But like I said in practice that won't happen until you prove it to yourself, so what do you think of the proof in my original post ?

If you don't like it simply realize this dream is immaterial, no-thing, non-finite, infinite. There can't be two of these, right ?

Edited November 15, 2023 by Loveeee

[Loveeee]

6 hours ago, Razard86 said:

I'm sorry I'm confused....what do you mean?

I mean what I said in my original post 

[Vibroverse]

Accept your fears and worries, don't resist your pain and turn back to inner stillness more and more. And it is not even turning back to inner stillness, but just allowing yourself to stop being dumb more and more, and the inner stillness will embrace you like a white hole. 

And stop feeling like "you" are a self, and like even the only self, ah, what a pain it is to feel like you are the one who is responsible for everything. You then blame and judge yourself about everything. You try to find the right way of being all the time. 

And you try to find the right action, and feelin worried about this and that, and you get lost in your mind trying to find the right model, the right philosophy, instead of simply accepting that you are not the doer and you are not the thinker. 

 

[Razard86]

45 minutes ago, Loveeee said:

I mean what I said in my original post 

You are being even more vague. Can you actually explain?

[Loveeee]

4 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

You are being even more vague. Can you actually explain?

I do not remember Leo explaining what I did in the way that I did in my original post 

[Osaid]

1 hour ago, Loveeee said:

Solipsism points to the infinity of This/Here/Now

Solipsism is a philosophy which defines "you/reality/this/now" by pointing to a relative concept of "other" or "other minds."

If "other" is truly deemed as non-existent, it is completely redundant to define your experience using that non-existent entity. Defining yourself using something that doesn't exist is just a tautology. It doesn't say anything about your experience, or what actually exists. You cannot experience non-existence, and you can't use non-existence to define existence. You can't define experience by saying "this thing does not exist" because non-existence is not a phenomenon which can actually truly occur or be experienced. You can imagine and then unimagine non-existent things for eternity and it will get you no closer to realizing what your experience is.

Solipsism looks like a mental inference to me. If I look at the color red, that is just the color red. It is not "not blue", or "blue doesn't exist." The latter is mental inference. If someone has never perceived blue, or has never perceived an "other", that inference cannot exist, because your imagination and knowledge is simply based on your memory. You can experience memories and knowledge of "other people", but aside from that your experience says nothing of their existence. And I mean actual nothing. Not non-existence.

You can't truly realize that something doesn't exist, in the same way that you can't truly believe that something exists. For example, when you believe Santa Claus exists, they are not actually coming into existence, it is just that your experience is recontextualizing itself around a belief about Santa Claus. It is belief which exists, not Santa Claus. In a similar light, when you realize the unicorn you're imagining is imaginary, that doesn't mean the unicorn doesn't exist, it means the unicorn is imaginary. I am being anal about how I use the word "exist" because we are talking very existentially here.

Humans give too much significance to their imagination. You cannot create or realize non-existence by thinking about things or realizing that something is imaginary. This is anthropomorphizing. Reality is not unimagining or creating non-existence behind the scenes, that is a process of creation which you create philosophies out of, like solipsism.

Like any other "awakening", solipsism is incomplete, and it is partial. It truly does not point to anything. It is a realization based in an idea which points to something relative, which can't be the truth. Solipsism is defined by pointing to relative parameters, like "you", "other", "me", "people", "humans", but fails to say anything about the nature of what is absolute. You can hypothetically skip the entire "awakening" if you were simply born in a universe where you were the only creature that existed, or if you woke up tomorrow and every creature on earth was gone.

1 hour ago, Loveeee said:

so what do you think of the proof in my original post ?

I didn't see it as any kind of proof, which is why I inquired.

My experience is certainly not limited, and it is not experienced as anything which is divided. I think that the very statement "this does not exist" is a limit, and so it is false. I don't see how your proof coincides with solipsism, which says "your experience is the only thing, therefore other minds do not exist." The limit of "other minds" must be a mental inference since reality is unlimited, but in that case, it now fails to describe experience because it cannot be "yours" or "the only thing" if the way you are reaching that conclusion is through a mental inference. It's kind of like saying, "your experience is the only thing, therefore unicorns don't exist." Ok, but what does that actually tell me about experience? We are back at square one. It seems like it is actually saying something, but if you look at it really carefully, it points to something which cannot be experienced, AKA non-existence.

1 hour ago, Loveeee said:

if you don't like it simply realize this dream is immaterial, no-thing, non-finite, infinite. There can't be two of these, right ?

Right, not two.

I have realized that reality is physical, in the sense that no physical laws have really changed, but that it is also simultaneuously infinite and without boundaries. Most materialists are just living in an imagined version of physicality which includes many divisions, and that is simply because they still believe in an imagined self. Duality has nothing to do with physicality, that is a materialist misconception for the most part. But that is now moving to the topic of enlightenment.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Osaid

[Loveeee]

32 minutes ago, Osaid said:

My experience is certainly not limited, and it is not experienced as anything which is divided.

What room is there for anything else then ? None

32 minutes ago, Osaid said:

Right, not two.

So there you have it, solipsism, omniscience, or whatever you want to call it

There can't be multiple bubbles of consciousness, because they would limit each other

Edited November 15, 2023 by Loveeee

[Osaid]

20 minutes ago, Loveeee said:

You can't have multiple bubbles of consciousness, because they would limit each other

There aren't any bubbles at all. 

It's not that there is nothing outside of experience, but rather, there isn't an "outside" or "inside" at all. Consciousness is not an object or container or bubble, it is infinite. All finite limits are a function of human imagination. At this point all I can really keep saying is that it is infinite, but that doesn't do much to explain what that means unless it is directly realized. 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Osaid

[Loveeee]

30 minutes ago, Osaid said:

There aren't any bubbles at all. 

It's not that there is nothing outside of experience, but rather, there isn't an "outside" or "inside" at all. Consciousness is not an object or container or bubble, it is infinite. All finite limits are a function of human imagination. At this point all I can really keep saying is that it is infinite, but that doesn't do much to explain what that means unless it is directly realized. 

And yet you do believe there is or at least might be stuff outside your experience, don't you

[Razard86]

2 minutes ago, Loveeee said:

And yet you do believe there is or at least might be stuff outside your experience, don't you

There can be...if you imagine it....which is what duality is. To deny that possibility is to place a limitation on infinity.

[Loveeee]

22 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

There can be...if you imagine it....which is what duality is. To deny that possibility is to place a limitation on infinity.

Yeah just like Santa exists, as a concept

But I'm talking about actuality not concepts and beliefs 

[Razard86]

2 minutes ago, Loveeee said:

Yeah just like Santa exists, as a concept

But I'm talking about actuality not concepts and beliefs 

You are creating more distinction again. This is a game of subtlety you both need concepts and don't need concepts. Remember I said, you need HONESTY to understand this. Before a person awakens is there an experience of separation or not separation? Seperation/Duality.

And did this duality not feel real? Yes. Okay and upon removing that veil and experiencing Oneness what remained? Both the experience of Oneness and the conceptual experience of duality. What was the conceptual experience of duality? The understand of conception remained, but the experience of the conception stayed. And also the world and all of its creatures treat me like an other, but I am aware that I am ONE with them.

You see? This is why I said, YOU HAVE TO BE HONEST!!! Honesty, Honesty, Honesty!!! Stop trying to say how things SHOULD BE according to your calculations. What is it actually in your experience.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Razard86

[not-a-faerie]

I simply wonder if there are things I could never experience. I simply wonder if there are things I can never imagine. If there are, I would never know as such.

 

[Loveeee]

11 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

You are creating more distinction again. This is a game of subtlety you both need concepts and don't need concepts. Remember I said, you need HONESTY to understand this. Before a person awakens is there an experience of separation or not separation? Seperation/Duality.

And did this duality not feel real? Yes. Okay and upon removing that veil and experiencing Oneness what remained? Both the experience of Oneness and the conceptual experience of duality. What was the conceptual experience of duality? The understand of conception remained, but the experience of the conception stayed. And also the world and all of its creatures treat me like an other, but I am aware that I am ONE with them.

You see? This is why I said, YOU HAVE TO BE HONEST!!! Honesty, Honesty, Honesty!!! Stop trying to say how things SHOULD BE according to your calculations. What is it actually in your experience.

Don't overthink this

Your current experience is all there is, everything else is by definition concept and belief 

[Razard86]

3 hours ago, Loveeee said:

Don't overthink this

Your current experience is all there is, everything else is by definition concept and belief 

You experience concept and belief how can you KNOW concept and belief unless you experience. Right now you experiencing your DENIAL of concept and belief as separate from experience and thus you trap yourself in more delusion because you believe in logic. Reality is TRANSLOGICAL!!

You admit everything, all biases, biases are concepts if you deny biases are real then you deny reality!!!! I'm not overthinking it, you DEMONIZE THINKING. Reality is a dream, is a dream separate from a thought? Saying its a dream is the SAME as saying its all thought!!! Honesty, Honesty, you guys are so paradigm locked.

I can jump between any perspective, you guys hold onto perspectives and then accuse me of doing what you are doing. HAHHA yall are funny. I know what you you think, but you don't know what I think...so who is the one confused? Stop creating grounds, there are NO GROUNDS. It can be however it wants to be!!!

[Razard86]

You guys don't even realize the camps you create. You have those who demonize all concepts, you have those who demonize Absolute Solipsism, You have those who demonize Infinity of Gods, You have those who demonize thinking at all, and I'm sitting here laughing because you guys says Infinity has no limits, then construct limits and say you figure it out, when I challenge those limits you get scared and tell me I'm wrong, then when I say it has limits, those who believe it doesn't have limits tell me I'm wrong. Yet the irony is....I see and understand all of yall perspectives, but yall are totally confused.

Stop trying to prove a perspective wrong, seek to understand ALL PERSPECTIVES. God= ALL PERSPECTIVES. If you seek to expand, seek to understand. All I do is push you to expand, and instead you fight me. LOL. Yall love planting flagposts in an ocean. 

Infinity of Gods is true, Infinity of God is not true, Absolute Solipsism is true, Absolute Solipsism is not true, Duality is true, Duality is not true, how do we know? Because if you are locked into ANY of these paradigms IT FEELS REAL AND TRUE. You have to ACTUALLY REALIZE that it isn't true, for it to NOT be true. Until you realize it, YOU KNOW NOTHING and are just making claims of what you THINK you know. This is why HONESTY is the only way to find truth. Stop predicting, stop guessing. Open up yourself to the possibility and you can discover what is true.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Razard86

[Loveeee]

@Razard86 You're conflating relative and absolute truth 

[Razard86]

30 minutes ago, Loveeee said:

@Razard86 You're conflating relative and absolute truth 

HAhhahahhaa and there it goes. Relative doesn't exist, but it also exists. I'm not conflating, you are just biased!!! And I can prove you wrong with ease. Go prove to a person who is living a dualistic reality that he is not living in a dualistic reality. Prove it to them. Explain why you cannot prove it to them. Explain why they have to realize it!! Go ahead!!

[Loveeee]

2 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

HAhhahahhaa and there it goes. Relative doesn't exist, but it also exists. I'm not conflating, you are just biased!!! And I can prove you wrong with ease. Go prove to a person who is living a dualistic reality that he is not living in a dualistic reality. Prove it to them. Explain why you cannot prove it to them. Explain why they have to realize it!! Go ahead!!

Because it's true relative to them, not absolutely true 

[Razard86]

4 minutes ago, Loveeee said:

Because it's true relative to them, not absolutely true 

And this is where your ignorance is. Perception IS REALITY. As long as relative truth is true for them IT IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE!! The reason why the present moment is absolutely true, is because right now it is true!!! So the reason why there is no distinction between the relative and the absolute is because the relative is a CREATION OF A PERSPECTIVE.

In fact the reason you cannot understand what I am saying..is because right now you are ABSOLUTELY STUCK in a perspective. You have to get OUTSIDE the perspective, what Leo likes to call META. Until you go META you are trapped ABSOLUTELY. YOU ARE ABSOLUTE, which means you ARE YOUR OWN LIMIT. SO IF YOU CREATE A LIMIT, IT IS ABSOLUTE BECAUSE YOU ARE ABSOLUTE.

It's simple, but yall love to get trapped.