When should I quit

[Leo Gura]

I knew a pickup guy in Austin TX who made a good living playing chess tournaments and teaching chess. I don't know his rating but we was making up towards $100k. Not sure how he managed it but apparently it's possible.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Bobby_2021]

Making a living from chess tournaments is an eternal struggle. You are subjecting yourself to the most mental torture that humans can go possibly through and the only way you can make a living is if you manage to win all the time. Imagine you promising your kids some toys and the only way you can afford them is if you beat some child prodigy who has been trained by world class coaches.

I am not rated but I have defeated guys in the 1500 FIDE range. I plan to improve in chess side as my hobby. I will play real tournaments occasionally. For me it is more about creativity and the exploration of chess itself that matters more. Hooking up chess to survival will ruin the beauty of it. You might not be able to leverage your full IQ to play chess because pressures from life might impacting your performance. All my pro chess player friends are struggling and going on the tutoring route. They tech academics like math, science and also chess to make ends meet.

You have an IQ of 130. So perhaps you can quickly learn stuff. So maybe you should get a job in tech or coding that could easily pay off your bills and you might even be able to work remotely. You do not need college for that. Companies these days are hiring on the basis of skill. There are plenty of options out there for someone of your intellectual caliber.

[Bobby_2021]

On 8/11/2023 at 9:45 AM, trenton said:

I hesitate to pursue this because I myself suffer from depression and I have struggled to cure myself somehow. I still suffer from suicidal thoughts even though I tried educating myself on emotional mastery, I tried pills, I tried therapy, I tried the forgiveness exercise, and other things. All of them helped partially, but I still feel stuck in the same pattern. Part of the hopelessness is the job I hate. Despite my continued struggle with depression, I managed to help my brother stop his suicidal thoughts. I could be good at helping people, but I struggle to help myself.

Man, sorry to tell you that your supreme creativity is struggling to find expression in you. It will make you into a mess if you do not let it express itself. The most creative writers are often psychologically insane. That is a feature, not a bug. If your intellect is not handled properly, it will be more of a hinderance that a gift. You need to learn to use it more strategically and plan to use it well just like you plan in the middle game.

That is all true. But I do not have enough of an experience to guide you since I have many of the struggles that you mentioned. As a casual advice, I may suggest you get a tech job or coding, and you can build off from there. The market is not the most forgiving nowadays, but that is something to look into.

[MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI]

On 11/8/2023 at 4:35 PM, Leo Gura said:

You need to develop some line of work besides chess. That doesn't mean you have to quit chess. But chess just does not make a solid enough career unless you are worldclass.

The problem with chess is that it doesn't add that much value to peoples' lives, so it's difficult to live off that.

Also, limiting your whole creative output only to chess is just very limited. There are so many other areas of life where you could contribute besides that. Unless you are a worldclass grand master, keep chess as a hobby/side-gig. Not your main career.

You might find that this is a win-win because you may enjoy chess more if your whole livilihood doesn't hinge on it. Doing professional chess can suck the joy out of what should be a fun hobby.

If you think about it on a fundamental level, chess is a game. It was never meant to be a profession. Trying to turn it into a profession is not a good idea, even if you could do it. If you really thino about it, this notion of chess as a career is a preverted recent invention. Chess was never supposed to be about that. So you are ramming a square peg into a round hole in trying to do that. Even someone like Gary Kasparov, he has moved on to writing books about politics, etc. Because chess is just too narrow a thing to devote your whole life to. Chess's proper place in life is as a hobby, not a career. Those who turn it into a career are threading a very fine needle. And it's not at all clear that this is even good for them. There's way more to life than chess. Why artificially limit yourself so much? The whole point of chess is to enjoy it, not grind it out for years. It's the same problem as turning sex into a career. Sex is not supposed to be a career.

My career is a musician.

A life passion is Starting an adult film company. Would that be a career or a hobby?

Edited November 13, 2023 by MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI

[SonataAllegro]

I am in a similar position. I want to become world class at music, but have had to let go of the hopes that it would become my career. And I also work at a grocery store (Trader Joe's -- what store you are at?)

First off,, I think life as a professional musician could be a miserable rat race in itself. And second, the amount of time it will take to get to that level means I wouldn't ripen as a musician until my 40s. Especially since the foundation of my music work is consciousness and spiritual development, and because I need a 9-5 to make a living, at least for now, which takes up a ton of time.

You clearly want to become an excellent chess player, so you absolutely need to keep it in your life. You can find joy in teaching it, but staking your financial success on beating out grand masters is nothing short of self sabotage. Imagine how much joy you could get from being an excellent chess player but NOT having your career at stake every time you lose a match?

Bottom line: "hobby" does not imply you're forever an amateur. You can become professional level for the pure love of the mastery process, all the while letting something else you're good at pay the bills. If your situation is like mine, you've become suicidally depressed over the fact that your life purpose is unlikely to be a viable career. This turned right around for me and I started finding immense joy from my day job when I realized that music can be more of a spiritual discipline and a personal challenge. There is no shame, no "you didn't make it", and no dearth of passion in deciding that chess plays a different role in your life than does your career.

Best wishes!

[trenton]

@SonataAllegro I work at Kroger.

I find your post very relatable. I definitely hold 'hobby' as an implication of being an amateur who doesn't play seriously.  I fear that my potential was wasted if I don't make a serious investment. This makes me hate my day job even more because it has nothing to do with mastering chess. This is why I try so hard to replace it.

14 minutes ago, SonataAllegro said:

If your situation is like mine, you've become suicidally depressed over the fact that your life purpose is unlikely to be a viable career.

If this is true for you, then I am not alone in this kind of struggle. I felt that I was misguided by being encouraged to follow my passion. Unfortunately, there was no college major for this. I have been lost trying to build a new purpose from scratch for years. I intend to seek out career counseling to see what else I might pursue.

[trenton]

@Leo Gura I have some important questions for you concerning purpose. These questions are at the core of why I insist on pursuing chess. I have struggled to find meaning in anything for my entire life and it feeds into depression. Chess is one of the methods of escapism by creating an obsession and pursuing fiercely. This is partly my method of trying to create happiness and purpose.

My struggle for meaning covers my entire life. I don't see meaning in relationships, I don't see meaning in work, I don't see meaning in my suffering, and I struggle to find meaning in life. I try to create a sense of meaning and purpose by pursuing achievements instead. LIkewise, I try to get obsessively absorbed to the point that nothing else bothers me in the universe due to my singular focus. I also have a low sense of self worth.

I tried creating a sense of purpose out of spirituality. This is why I was interested in things like God consciousness. If I had access to psychedelics, maybe it would recontextualize everything, giving me a new outlook to work with. Unfortunately, I am otherwise poor at spirituality. Once again I struggle to find meaning without creating a singularly focused obsession. I used to do the same with love and relationships until that fell apart.

I struggle with these questions of purpose constantly and it plays into my depression. I am driven by a strong sense of needing purpose and huge importance but I don't know what to do with life. I feel completely miserable when I can't have some sense of meaning and purpose.

What are the mistakes in this mindset? Am I thinking about purpose the wrong way? The fear that I can never have a happy and fulfilling life leads to hopelessness.

I am always nervous to see how you respond, but I choose to post in spite of this fear. I hope you see value in understanding the struggle I face.

[not-a-faerie]

stubbornnes doesn't get us anywhere. I don't have an answer to your question of when to quit and when not to. Perhaps we follow what is receiving rewards. What is working? We don't need everything to go our way. but think not of being stubborn. Look to follow what works instead of what hurts. if it hurts, look elsewhere. If we can't pay the bills, look elsewhere. a hobby is not a career path

Finding a way in life is difficult. 

[MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI]

Do something that actually is creative. Nobody plays chess in 2023.

I am not surprised spirituality isn't a strong suit for you. To be spiritual you can't indulge yourself in escapism.

Your life will never ever be happy. All of life is suffering. Isn't that the reason you are here??? To get blessed out??? Hahahaha

Edited November 19, 2023 by MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI

[MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI]

On 11/13/2023 at 0:26 AM, SonataAllegro said:

I am in a similar position. I want to become world class at music, but have had to let go of the hopes that it would become my career. And I also work at a grocery store (Trader Joe's -- what store you are at?)

First off,, I think life as a professional musician could be a miserable rat race in itself. And second, the amount of time it will take to get to that level means I wouldn't ripen as a musician until my 40s. Especially since the foundation of my music work is consciousness and spiritual development, and because I need a 9-5 to make a living, at least for now, which takes up a ton of time.

You clearly want to become an excellent chess player, so you absolutely need to keep it in your life. You can find joy in teaching it, but staking your financial success on beating out grand masters is nothing short of self sabotage. Imagine how much joy you could get from being an excellent chess player but NOT having your career at stake every time you lose a match?

Bottom line: "hobby" does not imply you're forever an amateur. You can become professional level for the pure love of the mastery process, all the while letting something else you're good at pay the bills. If your situation is like mine, you've become suicidally depressed over the fact that your life purpose is unlikely to be a viable career. This turned right around for me and I started finding immense joy from my day job when I realized that music can be more of a spiritual discipline and a personal challenge. There is no shame, no "you didn't make it", and no dearth of passion in deciding that chess plays a different role in your life than does your career.

Best wishes!

It depends how good you are. I myself am genetically gifted with perfect pitch and hear beautiful songs in my sleep every night. Which is why I am a musician. 

You have to not let go of anything. 

You must delude yourself and stay delusional for a while chasing the little niche consciousness gave you. Everyone has something that is very small(talent) you must harness to become a master.

Don't chase the thing you'd like to do. That is stupid as fuck. Chase the thing you are wired to do. And you will get rich. 

The thing you are greatest at is often something you avoid or "hate" doing. 

Stop complaining. Do you want to have a 9-5 or be rich. Those are your only options in this life.  All you've done is persuaded yourself out of putting in the work required for you to live your fucking dreams. I've never ever done that in this life.

Don't either! Keep fucking going!!

Edited November 19, 2023 by MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI

[MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI]

On 11/11/2023 at 1:14 AM, Leo Gura said:

I knew a pickup guy in Austin TX who made a good living playing chess tournaments and teaching chess. I don't know his rating but we was making up towards $100k. Not sure how he managed it but apparently it's possible.

Rare case 

[trenton]

Bad News.

I am unable to get the job with Varsity Tutors. One of the requirements is that I need a four year degree. I stopped at a two year degree. It is looking more like I need to go back to college. If I do go back it would probably be for some kind of engineering because that is where my strengths lie even though I never had any passion for this career path. I fear that I screwed up big time by following my passion. I wasted 5 years of my life and barely built up any career capital aside from teaching chess and bagging groceries. I just turned 25, so it isn't too late, but I am very concerned about the position I find myself in. I will likely need to start over if I go back to college.

[TheNotesInBetween]

I was a lot like you once. I tried turning Chess into some sort of Career for years and years, and it ended up making me miserable because I couldn't measure up to the competition.

At some point, I saw the light and "gave up" on Chess as a profession and just play for the love of it. And my current job has nothing to with Chess, or any intellectual pursuit for that matter...just physical grunt work. And that's ok. Just keeping it as a hobby and see where that takes me.

As others have said, Chess is just a shit profession. It never was meant to be one. Chess is agonizingly stressful as a profession.

Take the World Championship for example. Imagine having to do countless hours of engine preparation, having a team working for you telling you what to play. Imagine having to find some minor improvements on move 25 or 30 in the dry, barren positions of the Petroff Defense. Imagine grinding down your opponent for hours and hours, having a winning position...and making a stupid blunder in the end and losing! And on top of that, somehow you'd have to "shake off" that loss in less than 24 hours because you'd have another multi-hour game the next day! Imagine that...

That's just brutal torture, I wouldn't wish that on my worse enemy. You'd be begging to bag groceries after going through that.

I think you're "romanticising" Chess as a profession a little bit...as have I in the past.

Magnus Carlsen gave up the title because he couldn't deal with that torture. Ding Liren, the Current Champ, is a Lawyer (!) by profession, Chess isn't even his main thing! Let that sink in.

Making it as a Chess coach or content creator is a little more feasible, but that too is difficult. Maybe if you have a fun on-screen persona and pump out endless content you can make it, but there's no guarantee. You can give it a shot, but your entire survival shouldn't hinge on this alone, always have a day job until you at least make it big.

That being said, it's not all doom and gloom, Chess is a great hobby. My analytical abilities can find an outlet through this game, and it scratches an itch that other endeavors fail to do. Like, for example, creative writing is another great endeavor, but you can't get any adrenaline rushes through writing. Or Math. Winning a tight,tough battle, a long endgame for example, produces such an exhilarating feeling that is hard to replicate otherwise, even by taking drugs.

Anyways, I'm going off on a tangent (I can just blab on and on because I'm passionate about this game). You're not alone banging your head against the wall with Chess, I've done that...and on some days still do. Just keep Chess as a hobby, you don't have to quit playing entirely, you're still young, just look elsewhere for a profession (learning a trade,engineering etc, or even just good 'ole physical labor, there's no shame it that.It's good for the mental health)

[trenton]

@TheNotesInBetween thank you very much for the post. This is helpful.

[trenton]

@TheNotesInBetween I'm trying to build an alternative career. I am considering transpersonal psychology. I might be interested in psychedelic research and using it to treat depression. Otherwise I might have to do engineering. I'm not sure how I should try to go about building this alternative career.

It is hard to enjoy chess when I see the long term financial problems of building a career around it.

[trenton]

Good news. My suicidal thoughts finally stopped.

It appears that I have been holding myself to impossible standards and judging myself as a bad person and a failure for not meeting these standards. In this case I have been trying to turn chess into an economically viable career but I failed. I blamed myself for not trying hard enough even though I was trying to do something next to impossible.

I felt like I was wasting my talent and not living up to my potential. This is part of what caused me to lose sleep at night.

I will keep trying to come up with realistic and financially viable career options. I like the emotional mastery route, but I don't know if it is realistic to teach emotional mastery in schools to prevent suicide. This would require either a non profit or some kind of political change to the educational system. I'm not sure how to achieve such a thing. I tried sticking to chess because I clearly had what it took to be a master, but I was left with the financial problems.

My last resort is to go into engineering which I never had any interest in at all.

[An young being]

40 minutes ago, trenton said:

Good news. My suicidal thoughts finally stopped.

It appears that I have been holding myself to impossible standards and judging myself as a bad person and a failure for not meeting these standards. In this case I have been trying to turn chess into an economically viable career but I failed. I blamed myself for not trying hard enough even though I was trying to do something next to impossible.

I felt like I was wasting my talent and not living up to my potential. This is part of what caused me to lose sleep at night.

I will keep trying to come up with realistic and financially viable career options. I like the emotional mastery route, but I don't know if it is realistic to teach emotional mastery in schools to prevent suicide. This would require either a non profit or some kind of political change to the educational system. I'm not sure how to achieve such a thing. I tried sticking to chess because I clearly had what it took to be a master, but I was left with the financial problems.

My last resort is to go into engineering which I never had any interest in at all.

Congrats for overcoming your negative thoughts! Not easy at all. To add a thing about engineering, millions of people of in my state go into engineering and most have no idea of what it is or no interest at all before joining it. But most of them do good in their life and switch to their passion after earning enough money or develop interest in engineering  itself despite initially not having it after some experience. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by An young being

[trenton]

On 11/11/2023 at 1:14 AM, Leo Gura said:

I knew a pickup guy in Austin TX who made a good living playing chess tournaments and teaching chess. I don't know his rating but we was making up towards $100k. Not sure how he managed it but apparently it's possible.

@Leo Gura any chance you know how to contact this guy? I'd like to learn more about this person and how he managed to do this.